Knives?

Bryan Adams had something to say about that.

To American sensibilities, sex and violence are virtually synonymous. Some people are excited by that comparison. Others are disgusted. Luckily, Americans are also culturally enamored with and fascinated by violence.

I'm putting on my Nomex underwear after that statement, but hey, it's true.

Knives can be a turn on, as long as they keep a good distance away from my penis.

If you want real spice in the erotic arena, try fireplay. Takes an enormous amount of trust and the 'top' needs to be expert so the partner doesn't get burned, just thrilled.

CDarklock said:

To American sensibilities, sex and violence are virtually synonymous.

I'm putting on my Nomex underwear after that statement, but hey, it's true.

Click to expand...

WOW. I can't remember the last time I read something that managed to be both funny and offensive all at once like that.

CDarklock said:

I'm putting on my Nomex underwear after that statement, but hey, it's true.

Click to expand...

Will that actually protect you from having a brick crammed up your nose? Because I see some torches and pitchforks headed this way. o_o

###

I've never really associated violence and sex. They're distinct, though it certainly isn't impossible to mix the two.

I'll defer to Dr. Clotaire Rapaille on this one.

...Americans have unconsciously "replaced" sex with violence. Our popular culture is filled with the sex/violence connection. Hip-hop lyrics regularly extoll the virtues of rough sex. There's an entire subgenre of romance novels called romantic thrillers, in which lovers connect in the midst of stories about serial killers, mass murderers, and terrorists. And how many times have we seen that film cliche where the couple slap each other's faces before falling into each other's arms?

Click to expand...

It's everywhere. As the good doctor himself observes, the movie War of the Roses concludes an extended violent conflict between husband and wife with one looking to the other and asking, "Was it good for you too?" Seduction is "conquest". Sex with a woman is "nailing" or "banging" her. Women joke about castrating a man who cheats, and call in all seriousness for the death penalty to be applied to rapists. We call singles bars "meat markets". How much evidence do you need?

This isn't just something I pulled out of my arse. It's a real cultural phenomenon. I think the knife as a phallic symbol is probably more appropriate in the American market than any other.

If a knife is used as a phallic object it would probably be outside of erotica unless you are way out in fetish or edgeplay territory. Erotic romance publishers at least tend to exclude even refering to sharp things becoming involved.

In Girl With a Pearl Earring, a needle was used as a phallic symbol--- taking of virginity etc... In fact the whole adult coming of age ritual has often included scarring, circumcision, tattooing, and penetration in some way, and changing of personal appearance through a violent act. I really don't see this as strange or fetishist, though it is probably outside the scope of your genre.

I was answering in the context of this being the erotica forum. Anything longer than it is wide can be a phallic synbol, but being grist for erotica is a whole other thing.

CDarklock said:

I'll defer to Dr. Clotaire Rapaille on this one.



It's everywhere. As the good doctor himself observes, the movie War of the Roses concludes an extended violent conflict between husband and wife with one looking to the other and asking, "Was it good for you too?" Seduction is "conquest". Sex with a woman is "nailing" or "banging" her. Women joke about castrating a man who cheats, and call in all seriousness for the death penalty to be applied to rapists. We call singles bars "meat markets". How much evidence do you need?

This isn't just something I pulled out of my arse. It's a real cultural phenomenon. I think the knife as a phallic symbol is probably more appropriate in the American market than any other.

Click to expand...

How much evidence do I need? Enough that actually proves your assertion, would be nice, since none of this does in the slightest. The fact that some people use sex as a metaphor for violence (or vice versa) no more means that "sex and violence are synonymous in American culture" than the fact that lots of people use the crashing of waves on the shore as a metaphor for sex means sex and the ocean are synonymous in American culture.

Joking about castrating a man who cheats (which is certainly NOT a bad joke limited to American women) has nothing to do with sex and violence being synonymous. Neither does calling for the death penalty for rapists.

So what it comes down to is, you believe sex and violence are synonymous (only in American culture, though!) on the basis of one old movie, and the fact that "banging" and "nailing" are sometimes used as euphemisms for sex. Wow, yeah, your evidence is overwhelming.


.

The equation of sex with violence, and vice versa, is universal. It's been around since the first caveman looked at the first cavewoman and hoisted his club. The author you quoted (who sounds suspiciously French to me) simply cited a few American-specific examples. You could do the same thing in any culture. Shall we start in, say, Afghanistan and work our way west?

Byran Adams is Canadian.

DecemberQuinn said:

So what it comes down to is, you believe sex and violence are synonymous (only in American culture, though!)

Click to expand...

I never said only.

on the basis of one old movie, and the fact that "banging" and "nailing" are sometimes used as euphemisms for sex.

Click to expand...

No. On the basis of extensive research conducted by a cultural anthropologist, whose summary I quoted.

Drasheny said:

The author you quoted (who sounds suspiciously French to me) simply cited a few American-specific examples.

Click to expand...

Well, yes. That's because I'm talking about American culture, not world culture. I assume that the OP intends to publish this book in America, ne-c'est pas?

Drasheny said:

The equation of sex with violence, and vice versa, is universal. It's been around since the first caveman looked at the first cavewoman and hoisted his club. The author you quoted (who sounds suspiciously French to me) simply cited a few American-specific examples. You could do the same thing in any culture. Shall we start in, say, Afghanistan and work our way west?

Byran Adams is Canadian.

Click to expand...

agreed. sex has been tied to violence in every culture. it simply manifests in different ways. sex is tied to gender, and how many gender-specific atrocities related to female genitalia have we seen in the world to date, that are still ongoing?

if you'd like we can look at male genitalia too, some see circumcision as genital mutilation. but sewing up a woman's vagina or cutting off her labia/clitoris still happens today. there's a whole world of meaning behind destroying a woman's external sexual parts, or lopping off her breasts in a war torn country.

this sh|t ain't new, and it ain't over, and it ain't just in america.

men in japan practice the art of rope binding. the art is in not permanently damaging the woman but her limbs DO go numb and she is bent into unique positions like a pretzel and dangled about and put on display per the man's preference.

these thing aren't new.

whipping someone up with a crop certainly didn't start HERE. neither did the cruel schoolmistress scenario. nor the ponygirl. nor fun with candle wax dropping on bare skin, or even the invention of castration.

american culture IS saturated with violence. however, we are not the only culture producing violent films and television shows, books, anime, and manga for that matter. american culture IS fascinated with sex. however, we aren't the only culture fascinated, if anything, we learned it from those other cultures.

for many americans, violence may arouse or in the right context be considered sexual, because the sex act itself can be seen as violent. penetrating another human being with your body or an object can be seen as violent.

however, this doesn't mean our culture 100% equates sex with violence. i'd say that route is "non vanilla" and most of america is pretty vanilla. most of america will not be turned on by watching someone get blown up and turn to their partner and say "let's get it on." neither will most housewives get all trembly in a good way if their husband pulls out his paddle and starts barking orders.

Using a knife as a phallic symbol, or the act of cutting as symbolic of penetration, is so familiar, it's cliche. (Which doesn't mean that Princess shouldn't use it in her story. It's classic.) In fact, as long as it's used metaphorically, it doesn't even strike me as being particularly violent. It's no more violent than any other vaguely Freudian symbol. It's certainly not a uniquely American symbol. It's cross cultural. It was a cliche long before Columbus even set foot on a ship.

I don't think we know enough about PrincessKLS's project yet to brand it as uniquely American. We're not even sure it's particularly violent. Not from one little metaphor. Now, if someone in her story puts on a Stetson and rides a nuclear warhead...

thmilin said:

...neither will most housewives get all trembly in a good way if their husband pulls out his paddle and starts barking orders.

Click to expand...

In America, paddles are the corporal punishment implement of choice.

Now I'm all trembly. I have to go get dinner on the table.

PrincessKLS said:

Do you think a knife can be a phallyc symbol? I was thinking about the term "cuts like a knife", with the idea of virginity and penetration running through my mind.

Click to expand...

yes, to answer your question (the intent of your thread ), you can use the knife as a phallic symbol. depends on how you use it but I've seen stories where the knobbed hilt of a dagger was used for penetration, and also plenty of "dark" stories where cutting itself is all tied up with sex. daggers and such work particularly well for goth/vampire type stories.

you can use anything oblong, as someone said. if it's sharp you'll have to tie the sharpness into the scene in a way that adds to the sexiness factor versus scaring off readers who might be squeamish about sharp edges in delicate body parts.

you can also fetishize the blade. ie, a woman (or man) who like sthe threat of being cut and gets worked up over the idea.

Drasheny said:

In America, paddles are the corporal punishment implement of choice.

Now I'm all trembly. I have to go get dinner on the table.

Click to expand...

ahahah, what time period are we talking here?

my mother beat me with wooden spoons and slippers. even a fly swatter.

my dad used belts of various materials or his bare hands.

thmilin said:

ahahah, what time period are we talking here?

my mother beat me with wooden spoons and slippers. even a fly swatter.

my dad used belts of various materials or his bare hands.

Click to expand...

Through much of the twentieth century, the paddle was the traditional spanking implement in American schools, until corporal punishment fell out of favor and started to be banned a couple of decades ago. Oh, it was also used in fraternity hazings, of course. Drilling holes in it was a Depression-era innovation, etc.

It just seems like so much in the S&M world has European origins. Sade was French. Sacher-Masoch, Austrian. Le vice anglais. I used to chat up a nice English gentleman who wrote stories featuring a "tawse," which I had never heard of, because it's Scottish. It wouldn't surprise me if knife play is synonymous with some Victorian-era Pole (who was probably missing some fingers.) The paddle thing just makes me feel patriotic and misty eyed.

As for your experiences...a melting pot, indeed?

veinglory said:

If a knife is used as a phallic object it would probably be outside of erotica unless you are way out in fetish or edgeplay territory. Erotic romance publishers at least tend to exclude even refering to sharp things becoming involved.

Click to expand...

Beauty gets diddled with the hilt of the Captain of the Guard's dagger in one of Anne Rice's books.

thmilin said:

if you'd like we can look at male genitalia too, some see circumcision as genital mutilation.

Click to expand...

It's still routinely done in the US. And what is the subtext of this act? The unconscious implication is there is something wrong with the penis that needs to be fixed.

thmilin said:

men in japan practice the art of rope binding. the art is in not permanently damaging the woman but her limbs DO go numb and she is bent into unique positions like a pretzel and dangled about and put on display per the man's preference.

Click to expand...

Well, it's not just men binding women. This is about control, not commiting violence on the other.

thmilin said:

american culture IS saturated with violence. however, we are not the only culture producing violent films and television shows, books, anime, and manga for that matter. american culture IS fascinated with sex. however, we aren't the only culture fascinated, if anything, we learned it from those other cultures.

Click to expand...

Sex is so titillating because there is such a huge prudish streak in American culture. If our society was less sexually-repressed it would take a lot of the steam out of pop culture.

thmilin said:

for many americans, violence may arouse or in the right context be considered sexual, because the sex act itself can be seen as violent. penetrating another human being with your body or an object can be seen as violent.

Click to expand...

I disagree, no thinking being confuses a loving act for a violent one. Sex can certainly stir the passions as much as violence, but people know the difference.

Drasheny said:

In America, paddles are the corporal punishment implement of choice.

Now I'm all trembly. I have to go get dinner on the table.

Click to expand...

Hmm, I think hands, belts, switches, riding crops, rulers (why do you think they call it that?), spatulas and wooden spoons are quite prevalent.

thmilin said:

you can also fetishize the blade. ie, a woman (or man) who like sthe threat of being cut and gets worked up over the idea.

Click to expand...

Ah, you're talking about bloodplay.

Drasheny said:

It just seems like so much in the S&M world has European origins. Sade was French. Sacher-Masoch, Austrian. Le vice anglais. I used to chat up a nice English gentleman who wrote stories featuring a "tawse," which I had never heard of, because it's Scottish.

Click to expand...

A tawse is a short, narrow leather paddle with a lengthwise slot in the striking part. It reduces the air resistance, concentrates the force of the blow on a smaller area, and the flesh welling up through the slot on impact causes additional pain.