The Premature Burial/Pacing

imagegod · May 3, 2008

Comment On Jim Undiluted

I was readying 'Jim Undiluted' and I had some comments that I strenuously disagree with, at least as written and as interpreted.

To wit:

"You will need to vary your pace, for several reasons: one is to give your readers breathing space, to give them time to assimilate what just happened, and to anticipate what will come.

A second reason to vary the pace is so that the audience will know when they've come to a fast part -- they'll have something to compare it to.

A third reason to vary pace is so that the audience doesn't get bored. Poor things, they're easily bored. A bored reader lays your book aside, meaning to pick it up again later, and never does. (Note: the readers can always, always tell if you're bored.)"
James D. Macdonald

I dont' believe in 'pace' per se. I believe in form, motion and structure.

'Form' is made manifest through the specific choice of words. Shakespeare embodies the limit case of great form. Talented writers can manifest form relatively quickly and easily. Less talented writers...not so much.

'Motion' is defined as the movement between problems and solutions; what we think of as plot. A great plot moves as fast as the form (and the characters) allow, finding solutions as fast as possible and and in as interesting a fashion as possible. Crappy plots...not so much.

'Structure' is the overall 'arc' of the piece...the overal integrity of the story. Great structure is what great Art is all about. Using a musical metaphor, if Bach was the master of form, creating recursive, fractal-like music that could literally be expanded without limit, he was never able to create the great structure embodied by Beethoven and his 7th, 3rd, 5th symphonies, etc.

Readers don't need 'breathing space', per se. Readers are looking for the passionate, well-formed movement of characters toward honest solutions and are always anticipating those solutions. Those solutions, are in fact, the whole point of the story. No solution, no point. 'Revelation' is simply the sum total of all solutions, the great reveal that all readers pay good money to experience, albeit second hand.

Readers don't need to compare slow and fast parts...variability is inherent in all great drama. What great writers vary are the beats of this drama...the roller coaster ride of rising/falling fear, anger, love, passion, terror, etc. They simply need to ride the roller coaster of dramatic tension/release to experience this variability.

Finally, there is no boredom in a book written passionately, with great drama, allowing the main character to experience a great revelation about themselves and (hopefully) the Human condition.

Pacing, per se, need not be pursued directly by the writer...pacing is an organic resultant of great form, plot and structure. Simply make an honest comittment to this trinity of form, movement and arc and 'pace' will follow as a function of this strategy of effective writing.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...

Mel · May 3, 2008

I need breathing space when I read. I also don't want to stay on a roller coaster from the first word to the last. Because you slow down doesn't mean there isn't anything happening, or that the story isn't moving forward.

Really, I don't care to feel breathless when I finish a book.

Perks · May 3, 2008

I think an eye/ear for pacing is important, but am not sure how much of it as a concerted effort betrays a lack of natural storytelling ability. If you are forcibly checkerboarding slow bits and action in a self-conscious attempt to craft a pace, it will be obvious.

But I think Jim's comments on the value of pacing undulations are pretty spot on.

imagegod · May 3, 2008

Mel said:
I need breathing space when I read. I also don't want to stay on a roller coaster from the first word to the last. Because you slow down doesn't mean there isn't anything happening, or that the story isn't moving forward.

Really, I don't care to feel breathless when I finish a book.

Being breathless is what great love affairs are all about...a great work of art should, at its core, but a great love affair.

Of course, that's not what everone wants. Nor should they.

It is, however, what audiences pay a great deal of money for: Walking out of Star Wars breathless. Putting down Catcher in the Rye breathless. Waiting with breathless anticipation for Clapton's next great solo.

Deleted member 42 · May 3, 2008

imagegod said:
I was readying 'Jim Undiluted' and I had some comments that I strenuously disagree with, at least as written and as interpreted.

What do you write? That makes a difference.

Macdonald is writing from the perspective of a professional writer of fiction.

imagegod · May 3, 2008

Medievalist said:
What do you write? That makes a difference.

Macdonald is writing from the perspective of a professional writer of fiction.

He may be a 'a professional writer of fiction', but I would argue that his perspective is incomplete and ineffective, as pertains to pacing in a great novel. (I'm an Artist: Novels, Songs, Paintings, Photos, Short Stories, Non-fiction, etc.)
My interest is greatness...that's where I differ most from Mr. Macdonald.
My dissagreement assumes a commitment to greatness. I understand not all writers want to make that committment. To those that do, I would argue that my thesis makes the most sense and is the most useful. But only for those writers/artists.

Perks · May 3, 2008

Commitment to greatness? Yes, I can see where that would be a very heavy responsibility to toil beneath.

Truthfully, the only difference I see in your 'thesis' and Jim's comments were, perhaps, that Jim may find it, pacing - I mean, a slightly more conscious process than you do.

Don't think that'll be any trouble for someone on such a path as yours.

loquax · May 3, 2008

If you don't understand the importance of pace, you'll never achieve greatness. Music is the artistic medium which displays pace in its most visceral form. In the way that great symphonies rise and fall, intensify and relax, so should writing, in order to create variety and ultimately a richer experience.

JennaGlatzer · May 3, 2008

Ol' Fashioned Girl · May 3, 2008

Have a Coke, Jenna. Got enough popcorn for me?

imagegod · May 3, 2008

Perks said:
Truthfully, the only difference I see in your 'thesis' and Jim's comments were, perhaps, that Jim may find it, pacing - I mean, a slightly more conscious process than you do.

I agree...as stated, I would submit that pacing, per se, is a function of great writing (as defined above). It arises organically from that writing, rather than something pursued directly and specifically.
Not a great difference, in an of itself. It's the perspective that is different...and the proper perspective can be very powerful indeed.

Which, of course, is what greatness is all about: Power. The power to create great Art. The power to move men's hearts and minds.

The power to change the world.

Perks · May 3, 2008

You know, that was pretty powerful for a 100th post.

imagegod · May 3, 2008

loquax said:
Music is the artistic medium which displays pace in its most visceral form. In the way that great symphonies rise and fall, intensify and relax, so should writing, in order to create variety and ultimately a richer experience.

I agree...but pacing doesn't come first. Given a great artist, it doesn't need to be independently pursued. It's simply a function of form, motion and structure; a direct function of that (hopefully fruitful) pursuit.

Deleted member 42 · May 3, 2008

imagegod said:
He may be a 'a professional writer of fiction', but I would argue that his perspective is incomplete and ineffective, as pertains to pacing in a great novel. (I'm an Artist: Novels, Songs, Paintings, Photos, Short Stories, Non-fiction, etc.)

Oh yeah?

What have you published lately?

Does all your work rely on an excess of prepositional phrases or is that reserved for your non-artistic prose?

My interest is greatness...that's where I differ most from Mr. Macdonald.
My dissagreement assumes a commitment to greatness. I understand not all writers want to make that committment. To those that do, I would argue that my thesis makes the most sense and is the most useful. But only for those writers/artists.

You've not even made overtures to a thesis yet; at best you've made a number of unsupported assertions.

I'm totally committed to a commitment to greatness, and I really really see why you're committed too. I think you should be committed.

But you need to work on conquering English prose at its most basic first--and then I suggest you get an MFA, 'cause for that greatness stuff, that's what you're gonna need. Literary works that aspire to greatness, and the writers who write them, are definitely best served by an MFA.

Yours in solidarity around literary greatness (I am all about the literary greatness in fact)--

Perks · May 3, 2008

Medievalist said:
I suggest you get an MFA, 'cause for that greatness stuff, that's what you're gonna need.

Crap. I've got a lot of work to do.

Toothpaste · May 3, 2008

You mentioned Shakespeare as an example of greatness of form. You then just recently said that pace comes out of organic writing. Would it suprise you to learn then that Shakespeare put a heck of a lot of thought and planning into his pace?

For example, the man wrote in iambic pentameter. Not all the time, but a fair bit. Often you will find lines that are only half of a full pentameter, followed by someone else speaking the last half of the pentameter. This was a deliberate writing structure to maintain pace, so that the one actor would read the line directly after the first, no pause, no thinking, to create a sense of urgency or passion. So yes, even the great Bard thought about such mundane things as pace.

Perhaps for you as a writer you do not think about the individual writing techniques when you write, but write, as you say, organically. Others however do need to take stock of their writing more technically. Sometimes it even bodes us organic writers (and yes I count myself as one of them, heck I didn't know my book was magical realism until I finished it) to examine our work technically when we cannot quite see what's not quite working in the text.

Yes readers aren't saying, "Ah yes he uses pacing to great effect here." Well they may, but certainly not all of them. Just as they don't complain about too many POV switches when a plot gets confusing. They may however sense when something works really well or really poorly and comment on that. We as writers deconstruct what works and what doesn't. That is our job, not theirs.

There are reasons basic writing rules exist, because they make the reading experience more pleasant for the reader. And there is nothing wrong with breaking the rules either, so long as you are deft at it.

But to suggest that being analytical means that you are not a great writer . . . that's a bit of a fallacy I would say.

I do however admire your passion.

imagegod · May 3, 2008

Medievalist said:
You've not even made overtures to a thesis yet; at best you've made a number of unsupported assertions.

But you need to work on conquering English prose at its most basic first

I'm an Autistic Savant and this is a Forum...I conquer proper prose in my books.

As far as my thesis goes...this is simply a sample from a broader, more in-depth work, where assertions are more properly supported. I have neither the time nor energy to bring that intellectual integrity to bear within this forum.

I thought people might be interested in my perspective...in the power of that perspective. If not...then not.

loquax · May 3, 2008

have you been told that your pacing is adequate?

Deleted member 42 · May 3, 2008

imagegod said:
I'm an Autistic Savant and this is a Forum...I conquer proper prose in my books.

As far as my thesis goes...this is simply a sample from a broader, more in-depth work, where assertions are more properly supported. I have neither the time nor energy to bring that intellectual integrity to bear within this forum.

I thought people might be interested in my perspective...in the power of that perspective. If not...then not.

I'm perfectly prepared to discuss, as are many in this forum, your thesis, if you're positive you genuinely want intellectual rigor.

But you presented your "perspective" as a side-ways swipe at a much-respected member.

If you want "intellectual integrity," I assure you that you'll find it here, but speaking as someone whose profession is the study of greatness, as you put it, I'm not overly impressed by the sort of thing I see from undergraduates on a regular basis.

Perks · May 3, 2008

It's probably not your perspective that's a problem. It's the tone of, well there's no other way to say it, vanity it rides that is offputting.

benbradley · May 3, 2008

Lightly buttered popcorn and diet Coke, please.

How late am I? Have I missed the climax?

Good Word · May 3, 2008

imagegod, where can we buy your books?

Dale Emery · May 3, 2008

I'm committed to near-greatness. But I'm pacing myself.

imagegod · May 3, 2008

Toothpaste:
Quoting myself: "Pacing is a function of form, motion and structure; a direct function of that (hopefully fruitful) pursuit."

Shakespeare is THE master of form...but ONLY form. I would argue that his need to pay attention to pace was a failure of motion and structure. And anyone who has sat through his Drama would agree...he in no master of motion and structure.

In my opinion, none of his works stand up to the worlds greatest works of dramatic fiction: Citizen Kane, Apocolypse Now, Casablanca, It's a Wonderful Life, Pinocchio, etc.

His words? Par Excellance...the very, absolute best. His Structure...not so much.

SPMiller · May 3, 2008

But you need to work on conquering English prose at its most basic first--and then I suggest you get an MFA, 'cause for that greatness stuff, that's what you're gonna need. Literary works that aspire to greatness, and the writers who write them, are definitely best served by an MFA.

You... you must be joking.

The Premature Burial/Pacing

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