Use of not-English language bits

murmel · May 3, 2008

In both of my WIPs I sprinkle in a few words of Gaelic or German or French, depending on nationality of the character speaking. Now, because I'm not a grammar and punctuation star, I hired an editor months ago to help me proofread (a stupid idea, but that's another battlefield), and he didn't like this at all.
Other readers enjoy the occasional foreign word, like the occasional in-period swear word perhaps, and some even don't want the translation given all the time.
In the WIP WWII in Germany I used expressions like Trümmerfrauen and Verdunklungsgebot, and the action suggests very easily what those words mean. Again, one reader loves it and the next one surmises I must be an ESL writer because no Englishman can possibly know those words. No?

What's your take on adding different language bits for more authenticity? A do or don't?

maestrowork · May 3, 2008

Foreign words are fine. Authors use them all the time. Just make sure I don't have a long section of them without any explanation. But use sparingly it adds flavor. I have foreign words and phrases sprinkled all over my manuscript. Who cares if some people don't like it. Just because the book is written in English doesn't mean every word has to be English. Capiche?

JamieFord · May 3, 2008

Handle with care. If only half of your readers are annoyed by their usage, that's still a lot.

I tend to have Asian characters and use foreign words quite a bit. Here's a rough example of different ways to handle 'em:

1) She wore a purple furisode. (Okay, I've injected a Japanese term, it's italicized so the reader knows it's foreign and not a misspelled English word).

2) She wore a purple furisode––a light kimono, with gold thread. (Okay, this time I've added a description so that the reader will know what I'm talking about).

3) She wore a purple furisode kimono––indicating her status as a single woman. (This time the foreign word has cultural relevance).

I almost always explain the word like #2, the first time the word is used anyway. But, I try for #3––to use the word so that it adds something real, as far as description, and isn't just plopped in for flavor.

Does that help at all?

choppersmom · May 3, 2008

I've never had a problem with foreign words in the books I've read, it gives them an interesting flavor, IMO. But there was one book I recall, where the author latched on to ONE French word, and just used it and used it and used it until I couldn't stand the sight of it. "Mignon." The guy kept calling the girl "mignon" on every stinking page, it seemed. (It translates to something like "cutie.") Mignon mignon mignon. Stop! Call her chere (dear), call her ma bichette (my little doe), call her ma puce (my flea) if you must, but change it up once in a while!

blacbird · May 3, 2008

Mon petit pamplemousse.

caux

WittyandorIronic · May 3, 2008

I agree with all the advice above. Sparingly and with enough scene context or an actual description, and you are good to go.
Since I am in the middle of reading a book with clear examples of how NOT to do this I thought I would share. I am reading a non-fiction book about Regency England written in a very entertaining manner. It uses a lot of quotes from letters, journals, and newspapers to give period impressions of different aspects of society. At least 4 times (I am a little over half way done....I read non-fiction so dang slowly) she has used a quote from someone foreign and not translated. It wouldn't be that big of a deal except they are entire sentences, sometimes two! It looks a bit like:
"Society's obsession with turtle soup was best summed up by French chef Jacque Whatever. When asked if he considered turtles a delicacy, he responded, 'Aadskhf adsfkjadk asdkl asdklfh kasdf! Ajdkh adshf kljkhad adsklhf aklhfa.' And Jacque definitely echoed the prevailing opinion of the times!"
WTF. Seriously? I am NOT going to babelfish.com and typing in an entire sentence. I am reading non-fiction for research, not to do more research. Drives me nuts.

murmel · May 3, 2008

WaoI - LOL.

I use JamieFord's 1,2,3 and so far nine out of ten loved the bits.

"Madainn mhath, Good Morning," she said.
the next time, it'll be "Madainn mhath," he said.

or "Isd, quiet," he said.
all the other it's "Isd." I think the reader is intelligent enough to figure it out after a while, especially with a glossary in the back of the book. n' est-ce pas?

Thank you for the discussion.

Jersey Chick · May 3, 2008

For my Samhain book, I used Spanish phrases scattered throughout - fortunately, one of my editors is fluent in Spanish - she caught all of my goofs (of which there were many!) But, I (hope) they will be relatively easy for a reader to understand, given the scenes.

I hope.

JamieFord · May 3, 2008

Glad it helped. Another great example is The Kite Runner, where he smoothly clarifies a word once and by the end of the book you're up to speed on all kinds of Afghani words and descriptors.

choppersmom · May 3, 2008

blacbird said:
Mon petit pamplemousse.

caux

Perle_Rare · May 3, 2008

murmel said:
In both of my WIPs I sprinkle in a few words of Gaelic or German or French, depending on nationality of the character speaking.

Just make sure you get those words or sentences absolutely correct. I've read way too many books where the French is mangled beyond recognition. Missing accents or wrong accents; wrong gender; wrong choice or words or screwed up sentence structure, and the list goes on. Drives me nuts!
:Soapbox:

You can also suggest nationality through choice of English words and sentence structure. There's many things I say in English that make it obvious I'm French. How often do you open the light (turn on the light) or offer your guests raisins while handing them fresh grapes? I also claim I'm going to the library when I plan to go to the bookstore. To do this, however, you'd have to be fluent in both languages or have had a fair amount of exposure to people for whom English isn't their first language.

blacbird · May 3, 2008

Perle_Rare said:
You can also suggest nationality through choice of English words and sentence structure. There's many things I say in English that make it obvious I'm French. How often do you open the light (turn on the light) or offer your guests raisins while handing them fresh grapes? I also claim I'm going to the library when I plan to go to the bookstore.

Ernest Hemingway and John Steinbeck both were particularly good at this technique, often with fine humor, with Spanish.

caw

choppersmom · May 4, 2008

Perle_Rare said:
or offer your guests raisins while handing them fresh grapes?

I'd tell them, well, not right away, you have wait a while for the raisins.

Daehota · May 4, 2008

I don't see a problem with using non-English words occasionally. In my current wip there is a sprinkling of Spanish as the MC is half Cuban. When he talks to his mother there are Spanish words in the conversation. They should be pretty easily understood by the reader, I think, by their context.

I wouldn't overdo it, though. It can get tedious.

Gary Clarke · May 4, 2008

"Madainn mhath, Good Morning," she said.
the next time, it'll be "Madainn mhath," he said.

Murmel ... is that meant to be Irish? Oh, hang on, maybe it's Scots is it? If so, crack on and ignore me!

A. J. Luxton · May 4, 2008

Using French and other linguistically related languages in an English manuscript is not so hard on many readers. Despite lacking any training in French beyond "bonjour, bonsoir, oui, non" I was able to piece out that the guitar instructional book "pour les Nuls" a Frenchman in a hostel was carrying was "for the idiots", and to his amusement read off correct rough English translations of the chapter index. I didn't know the words, but about two thirds of them were roots for similar English words. So a little context will sort it out. I usually have to look up the French quotes in T.S. Eliot poems because they don't have as much context stuck on them.

Now, use of Asian languages requires a lot more context and perhaps an outright explanation.

...I've been working in China as a teacher for seven months, and ever since I've gotten here I've wanted to write a parodical short-short mocking exoticism: name my characters things like "Mei You"[SUP]1[/SUP] and "Jiao Zi"[SUP]2[/SUP] and assign them dialogue like Wo shi ben dan Meiguoren. Cesuo zai nar?[SUP]3[/SUP]

I've refrained from doing so solely because only a select audience of people would get it, and probably some other select audience of people would think I was mocking the Chinese.

[SUP]1[/SUP]We haven't got any
[SUP]2[/SUP]Dumplings
[SUP]3[/SUP]I am a stupid American. Where's the toilet?

murmel · May 5, 2008

Gary Clarke said:
"Madainn mhath, Good Morning," she said.
the next time, it'll be "Madainn mhath," he said.

Murmel ... is that meant to be Irish? Oh, hang on, maybe it's Scots is it? If so, crack on and ignore me!

Actually I don't know whether the Irish words were the same... I speak Gàidhlig (Scottish Gaelic). Scots is very English intermingled with older Germanic words and grammar. You'd recognise Scots and you can read it.

Perle_Rare said:
Just make sure you get those words or sentences absolutely correct. I've read way too many books where the French is mangled beyond recognition. Missing accents or wrong accents; wrong gender; wrong choice or words or screwed up sentence structure, and the list goes on. Drives me nuts!

You can also suggest nationality through choice of English words and sentence structure. There's many things I say in English that make it obvious I'm French. How often do you open the light (turn on the light) or offer your guests raisins while handing them fresh grapes? I also claim I'm going to the library when I plan to go to the bookstore. To do this, however, you'd have to be fluent in both languages or have had a fair amount of exposure to people for whom English isn't their first language.

I know exactly what you're saying. I know a fairly successful writer of historical romance books who lacks not only accuracy, but the Gàidhlig she's uses is horrible.

I'm fluent in Scottish Gaelic and in German; have still bits of French. Means I'm good enough to attempt to sprinkle in their specific voices. I wouldn't try this in any other language.

Gary Clarke · May 5, 2008

The Irish/scots words must be very similar because the words you wrote looked like really badly spelled Irish, LOL!

murmel · May 5, 2008

Gary Clarke said:
The Irish/scots words must be very similar because the words you wrote looked like really badly spelled Irish, LOL!

The Scottish Gaelic was called Scots a very long time ago and the Lowland language Inglis... Around 16th, when the English cut off the direct connection between Eìrinn and Alba, the Scots was called Scottish Gaelic and the term Scots got attached to the Lowland English.
Scottish Gaelic and Irish grew further apart in the 17th century and after Culloden the Scottish Gaelic withdrew in pockets and deteriorated into a family only language. Still Irish and Scottish Gaels can understand each other.

I can read Irish but I can't write it. An Irish friend and I used to exchange posts on a forum, she wrote in Irish and I replied in Gàidhlig. It worked!

Beyondian · May 5, 2008

Perhaps luckily, I use obscure languages in my Historic Fiction (18th Century Argot, and Rromani Chib). I do quake in fear that I am using them wrong - or in the wrong context - or that my rough translation of Vidocqs 'The Thieves' is so bad that I'm getting all the Argot wrong...
I tend to use footnotes. Unless it's explained in the context. Sometimes I just leave it untranslated, but that's when the MC can't understand it either.
Are footnotes considered bad taste in fiction? I use a moderate smattering of foreign words, and putting them in itallics followed by the literal translation isn't going to work all the time.

Gary Clarke · May 5, 2008

<murmel> An Irish friend and I used to exchange posts on a forum, she wrote in Irish and I replied in Gàidhlig. It worked!

I can well believe it! I deffo understood the words you were writing anyway, just the spelling looked odd. Though I can barely spell English let alone Irish, I'm pretty sure that the way we'd spell it is 'Maidin mhaith agut'

My own Irish is very poor, but I try to get some of it into most everything that I write. I used quite a lot of it in my last book actually. I'm lucky enough to have a friend who is gealteacht born and raised and she did a stunning job on making my very basic gaeilge flow.

I'm hoping that my editor lets me keep it in... Fingers crossed!!

murmel · May 5, 2008

Feasgar math dhut. A bheil Gaeilge agad? Tha sin math. Tha a' Ghàidhlig agam. 'S dòcha gur urrainn dhuinn bruidhinn rinn?

Gary Clarke · May 5, 2008

Oiche maith duit, a chara. Nil ach gaeilge beagin bocht orm :0) Nil a fhios agum, in aon chomhair, cad e a ta thu a ra nuair a deir thusa 'urrainn dhuinn bruidhinn rinn?'

JimmyB27 · May 6, 2008

choppersmom said:
I've never had a problem with foreign words in the books I've read, it gives them an interesting flavor, IMO. But there was one book I recall, where the author latched on to ONE French word, and just used it and used it and used it until I couldn't stand the sight of it. "Mignon." The guy kept calling the girl "mignon" on every stinking page, it seemed. (It translates to something like "cutie.") Mignon mignon mignon. Stop! Call her chere (dear), call her ma bichette (my little doe), call her ma puce (my flea) if you must, but change it up once in a while!

My flea?! Ahh, yes, for what is more romantic than a bloodsucking parasite?

Gary Clarke · May 6, 2008

Jimmy >>My flea?! Ahh, yes, for what is more romantic than a bloodsucking parasite?

hey, there's no accounting for taste! One man's puce is another man's blood sucking parasite.

Use of not-English language bits

Fear the Death Ray

giving resonant directions

---

Up all night to get Loki

giving resonant directions

---

Dragon rider

---

Knackered

Wibbly-Wobbly. Timey-Wimey.

Knackered

musker vyusher

Knackered

Knackered

Hoopy frood

Knackered