Another first-person third-person question

Seaclusion said:

My concern is voice. Doesn't the voice of the writer become the voice of the MC in first? Or vice versa. Do they become one and the same since any narration is from the POV of the MC?

Richard

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Unless you plan on every first-person novel to sound exactly the same, then no. They are different.

As a writer, my voice is unique to me. It's in my grammar knowledge, my word choices, how I structure and vary my sentences. It's a style developed over time, and it is always present in my writing.

However (and for example), one of my WIP's is a novel told from two different first-person POV's. Each chapter alternates POV. I make a conscious effort to keep those POV's different from each other. My personal style exists, because I'm still the author. But the chapters told from Character X's POV is slightly more mature, he uses larger, more descriptive words. Character Y is rash, tends toward rambling a bit more and longer sentences.

Two different voices, still written in my own voice/style.

Does that make sense?

Yes.

Although, that is also my perspective and experience.

What voice?

In all fiction you are impersonating the characters or a particular authorial persona. Hopefully they come out different each time.

Seaclusion said:

I am about to start a mystery novel and am thinking of using first-person present tense as the mystery unfolds
My concern is voice.

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Your concern should be about the circular file.

I get these efforts on my desk and in my workshops all the time. First-person present will put you on the fast track to swift rejection unless you're a bloody awesome, and I mean *AWESOME* writer.

It's used in the more arsty-fartsy literary novels or sometimes will pop up in a genre novel for a brief scene until the writer comes to her senses and gets back to a more readable style.

I've edited in the mystery genre, and am not a fan of first-person present tense. This is my quirk, but a serious one. To me it's a sign of a writer who thinks no one's tried it before. It's as though the writer is inserting himself into the narrative, rather than letting the main character tell the story. Yes, it's nuts, but that's how it works in my mind.

I don't see it as adding to the suspense. Does the MC survive to the end?? Of course he does, but he can do it just as well in first-person past tense which is easier to read for most people.

If you absolutely must have some, I would suggest a paragraph in italics at the chapter starts. Then you can indulge the urge without courting an outright rejection.

But--on the downside--you have to make sure those bits do not slow the forward action of the narrative. You want the reader hurtling forward to the last page, and not give him an excuse to put the book down for the night.

Just so you know, I have used first-person present a few times in my stuff.

In them all, it was the result of the MC getting a head injury when the Bad Guy clocks him a good one. Once the MC recovered he was back to first-person past tense again.

And I wll also let you know that my editor was not even a little happy with me about those paragraphs. I also had to put in a special note to the copyeditor, letting her know that the tense-shift was done on purpose and that I'd not typed it while on a pub crawl!

Oy.

There's been this discussion before.

There's nothing wrong with first person present. Some people just don't like it for some reason. It's easy to go wrong, so read a lot of books in it first if you decide to use it.

Go with whatever POV feels most natural for the story.

There's an awful lot of hostility toward the present tense in any narrative, no matter what person the author uses. As far as I can tell, the hatred is completely unfounded, but that doesn't change the fact that some people don't like it. Past tense is "safer" because no one will reject a ms for being in past, while some will reject it for being in present.

If you want to use present tense, you need a strong justification for that choice. It has to fit the story. I believe even the present-tense-haters will give you the benefit of the doubt if you're using it correctly.

Many dialog tags are unnecessary when you have an exchange between two characters. Instead, you can show the characters' moods/feelings/reactions through specific action and the dialog itself.

When the number of characters reaches three or more, however, you start needing tags--unless, of course, the characters' voices are very distinct.

Seaclusion said:

Is it the same hatred I see of dialog tags. I've stopped using them too.

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What kind of dialog tags do you mean?

Do you mean "What?" he snarled, then no, that's almost universally seen as outdated and distracting.

If you mean the ordinary "What?" he said kind of tag, then yes, it's the same kind of unfounded hatred.

Gillhoughly said:

Your concern should be about the circular file.

I get these efforts on my desk and in my workshops all the time. First-person present will put you on the fast track to swift rejection unless you're a bloody awesome, and I mean *AWESOME* writer.

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If what you say is true, you've just given me a case of swollen ego. The novel that just got agented is in present tense, 90% of it first-person.

(There are a few very deliberate reasons why I chose that, and one of them is that the main character herself, who is 300 years old, has a somewhat intellectualized, Victorian-novel sensibility that removes some immediacy unless I compensate with other aspects of the writing; I think the first-person present tense just makes the audience distance break even.)

In general I'm a real present-tense fan, and, well -- can't say it's hurt me so far, though I could be eating my words next week. Who knows. My previous novel (the one that's under the bed) was in third-person present.

The one I just started (am about 8k in) is in third-person past, because I'm actually *trying* to get some distance from the characters in order to "see" them better. I'm a lot more awkward with past-tense prose than present-tense, so the difference is slowing me down. But I think it's the right thing for the book, and my instincts on tense and voice seem to have worked out for me in the past so I'm sticking with them.

I like to reserve the present tense for flashbacks, dreams and spacy states of mind. So for me, as for many people I've talked to, present tense reads as less immediate, less normal-life, than past.

The exception, I find, is indeed in first person narrative, where the narrative has a very conversational tone. Sophie Kinsella uses first person, present to great effect in the Shopaholic novels, which read like your BFF is in the room, telling you the latest scoop.

Seaclusion said:

I am about to start a mystery novel and am thinking of using first-person present tense as the mystery unfolds completely with the MC. I've never written anything as long as a novel in first.

My concern is voice. Doesn't the voice of the writer become the voice of the MC in first? Or vice versa. Do they become one and the same since any narration is from the POV of the MC?

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What you have to do to avoid this "pseudo-autobiographical" first-person writing style is develop a strong narrative character who clearly isn't just like you. Think J.D. Salinger's disaffected teener Holden Caulfield (The Catcher in the Rye), Anthony Burgess's coddled delinquent criminal Alex (A Clockwork Orange), Thomas Berger's 111-year-old ex-cowboy Jack Crabb (Little Big Man), Rex Stout's smartass detective Archie Goodwin (70+ Nero Wolfe mysteries), and, of course, Mark Twain's Huck Finn.

Do what good actors do: Become your narrator, rather than letting your narrator become you.

caw

Do first person present well, and the world is your oyster; do it poorly and an oyster is your world.

As for me, I probably wouldn't read it and probably wouldn't buy it either. In my personal opinion, the best tense to use is the one the reader doesn't notice. If you write first person present so it just feels like the story, use that. If you don't, then it may not be the best choice for you.

You want the reader to pay attention to what you're writing not how you're writing it. If your reader has spare attention to divert to worrying about what tense you are writing in you are probably using the wrong one because at that point they've stopped paying enough attention to the story.

I wouldn't recommend it but sometimes it works very well.

Dave.C.Robinson said:

Do first person present well, and the world is your oyster; do it poorly and an oyster is your world.

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Yup, what he said.

Water for Elephants is masterfully written in first-person present. As are a whole bunch of mystery novels by various best-selling authors.

I am a first-person present tense addict. I use this narrative style not to be artsy or different, but simply because it draws the best out of me as a writer. For whatever reason, I find writing outside this comfort zone to be unfailingly forced and clunky.

Uphill battle toward getting published? Perhaps. Yet I'm dead certain that my best effort with my chosen narrative is far more likely to get me there than my best effort trying the more conventional narratives.

All of which is to say... I believe that you should write with whatever style best serves your story and personal skill set. If you start catering to preferences solely because of better odds, you may not end up with a product that the pure writer in you might otherwise have written. Whatever feels most organic to you - that's where you should focus.

talps said:

Uphill battle toward getting published? Perhaps.

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Aren't they all?

caw

Gillhoughly said:

First-person present will put you on the fast track to swift rejection

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Just wanted to say that it seems fairly popular in young adult fiction-- it certainly doesn't stand out as unusual. For what it's worth, my first novel (YA) was in first person present tense, and I had no trouble finding a publisher. I chose this POV/tense because I enjoy writing it and it seemed to work best for the story (about half my books so far are in past tense and half in present; all have first person narrators). So far only one review has even commented on this-- and its comment was a positive one which referred to the "strong first person narration".

I wouldn't like to think anyone would avoid writing in the way that they find most natural for them or most appropriate for their story because of concerns about selling it. There are people who don't like first person present tense, but there are plenty of us who do. If it is done well, it doesn't have to draw attention to the writing-- I think that happens when the writing is awkward, regardless of tense or POV.

talps said:

I am a first-person present tense addict. I use this narrative style not to be artsy or different, but simply because it draws the best out of me as a writer. For whatever reason, I find writing outside this comfort zone to be unfailingly forced and clunky.

Uphill battle toward getting published? Perhaps. Yet I'm dead certain that my best effort with my chosen narrative is far more likely to get me there than my best effort trying the more conventional narratives.

All of which is to say... I believe that you should write with whatever style best serves your story and personal skill set. If you start catering to preferences solely because of better odds, you may not end up with a product that the pure writer in you might otherwise have written. Whatever feels most organic to you - that's where you should focus.

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Then I would recommend that you stick with first person present. Yes it may limit your audience (at least in some genres) but sending anything other than your best work will limit it far more than your choice of tense.

Seaclusion said:

I am about to start a mystery novel and am thinking of using first-person present tense as the mystery unfolds completely with the MC. I've never written anything as long as a novel in first.

My concern is voice. Doesn't the voice of the writer become the voice of the MC in first? Or vice versa. Do they become one and the same since any narration is from the POV of the MC?

Richard

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Well... first person is tricky because you really are channeling through the character so the more you're in tune with your character's style and voice, the better. If Hemingway were writing a first person account from the point of view of Forrest Gump, he wouldn't sound like Hemingway, would he? That said, writers can't completely remove themselves from their material. They can try their darnest to become the character itself, but much like how the greatest actors do with their characters, they still bring a part of themselves into the roles. Robert De Niro is going to play a role differently than Dustin Hoffman, even if the character "sounds" exactly the same on paper. Each actor brings a piece of themselves into their characters. So does a writer.

In a way, we're talking about being "technically" the character or embodying the heart and soul of the character. I think the latter is much more important than, say, the writer totally tries to technically imitate certain person. For example, never would I think a Japanese geisha would have the kind of vocabulary and eloquence writing in English as Arthur Golden did, but I think he embodied the character really well, capturing her heart and soul while still keeping a unique voice.

And unless you're writing a first person narrator from the POV of a famous person, such as Bill Clinton, you don't really have the restrictions of what kin of "voice" you must project. To use the acting example again, there's a difference between play a historical figure than to do an impersonation on Saturday Night Live. That's why performances such as Jamie Foxx in Ray or Helen Mirren in the Queen are rare because the actors embodied the real-life characters so well, yet they're not merely impersonating.

You just need to be authentic the best you can.