Any English Majors? History, Religion?

Ned George · May 1, 2008

I'm writing a research paper for Victorian Lit and the topic I've chosen is the treatment of dissenters and Catholics in 19th Century literature. I'm not truly focused on Catholicism, since it's already so well-documented.

If anyone knows of a particular passage, off-hand, of the way a non-Church of England character is portrayed in a novel written between 1840 and 1900 (loosely) I'd really like the reference.

Also, I would love to discuss feelings about why the English responded so negatively to religions outside the state religion. What threat did they see in the Quakers, the Calvinists, the Methodists, etc.? And why?

I understand that as science progressed, people began to think that everything would eventually be explained and that God would no longer be a mystery. So far, this hasn't happened, of course. My point is that I don't think science and its advances really explain the negative portrayals of dissenters in British fiction.

Why were the conservatives so threatened by those who disagreed with their church? I'd like to come up with a thesis statement in the next couple of weeks, and I really need some help with this topic. I could easily do a reasearch paper, but this has to have some sort of argument, and I'm having trouble narrowing it to something do-able.

I'd love any help!

Thanks so much,
ned

Deleted member 42 · May 1, 2008

Dickens' Oliver Twist 1838 Fagin

As to the threat, you need to look back to the English Reformation, and the way Mary treated Protestants--and the dread of Papist (Catholic) nations like Spain and France invading England.

I'm half asleep, but there are other novels just oout of reach of my memory; I'll try to do better.

Calla Lily · May 2, 2008

Another Dickens: Barnaby Rudge. It's not one of my favorites, but IIRC, it's about anti-Catholic riots. Um... I think.

An interesting, if syrupy, book is We Two by Edna Lyall. MC is the daughter of an atheist reformer and falls in love with the son of a CoE minister. It rises above her other syrup because of the fascinating treatment the atheists get--and the way she nails corrupt priests and preachers as well. Try the library, but it might be a stretch. I found my copy at a used book sale.

I'm an ex-Catholic, so my knowledge is pretty much centered on Catholicism, but I'll try to help if you can use me.

Judg · May 2, 2008

In all fairness, the English were significantly more tolerant than most other European nations. France slaughtered the Huguenots (and under the revolutionaries, devout Catholics too).

You are going to have to have a grip on worldviews to understand this at all. Our modern "tolerance" is often just a disguise for a refusal to believe in truth at all, or just plain apathy. It's easy to tolerate another opinion if you don't think any of it really matters more than how much salt you put in your soup. A lot of people get considerably more worked up about the latter.

But if you believe that there is a truth. One truth. And it matters. Eternally. Well, then it's worth getting excited about. Unfortunately, they ignored the verses about not wrestling against flesh and blood and a host of others that make it pretty clear that persecution is not the way to go. We humans like to take a good thing and mess it up.

You might like to read a good biography of Elizabeth I, who tried very hard to keep the enthusiasm of her advisers for "robust" measures in check. She was fighting the spirit of the times and did a remarkably good job of it. I know it's not the era you're looking at, but it set the groundwork.

Jenny · May 2, 2008

Elizabeth Gaskell. I can't remember a particular reference, but her works are online and searchable.

Not quite what you're looking for, but prompted by the question, I find Tom Brown's Schooldays a good example of muscular Christianity - which I'd define as focusing on behaviour rather than belief. It scorned the "frills" of non-Anglican or High Anglican behaviour - in my unlearned opinion. But it became a kind of code of behaviour.

Komnena · May 2, 2008

Hawthorne's Marble Faun.

Smiling Ted · May 2, 2008

ned said:
Also, I would love to discuss feelings about why the English responded so negatively to religions outside the state religion. What threat did they see in the Quakers, the Calvinists, the Methodists, etc.? And why?

ned

Well, the Low Church crowd responded pretty negatively to the C of E folks, too. It was a two-way street. For instance, the Pilgrims sailed for Plymouth not to find religious freedom for ALL men...just for themselves. It took exiles to Rhode Island to really establish religious tolerance in New England.

johnnysannie · May 3, 2008

Judg said:
In all fairness, the English were significantly more tolerant than most other European nations. France slaughtered the Huguenots (and under the revolutionaries, devout Catholics too).
.

Henry VIII (who founded the Church of England so that he could have the divorce that the Pope denied - prior to Henry, England was a Catholic nation) had two daughters, Mary who was a staunch defender of the Catholic faith and Elizabeth I who was a staunch Protestant.

Mary brought many of the techniques of the Spanish Inquisition to England and used them against Protestants. In the last three years of her reign alone, 300 men and women were burned to death at Smithfield for their assumed heresy.

An idea of what happened under Mary can be found here:

http://www.otteryreformed.freeola.net/rc-prot.htm

"From Foxe's Acts and Monuments it would seem certain that 289 (including the new born babe in Guernsey) died by fire and about 112 were so foully treated in prison they also died in the same cause. They included four Bishops, an Archbishop, several other Church dignitaries, and a few gentlefolk and well-to-do tradesmen. However, the greater number were humble lay folk; husbandmen, artisans, craftsmen, weavers, housewives and even apprentices and children and two blind girls. They were not accused of treason, but heresy. The executions were by burning, not hanging, drawing and quartering as for treason. The story of their sufferings is pathetic indeed. The prayers, discourses, letters and writings published by Foxe in the Acts and Monuments give evidence that they were Bible-believing Evangelical Christians dying for the cause of Christ and the Gospel. "

Elizabeth took the throne and although she was a Protestant monarch, she attempted some reconilation with her Catholic subjects. She attempted a Religious Settlement that actually made the Church of England more Catholic again but it didn't please either side. After the Pope excommunicated Elizabeth, many English subjects clamored for a new ruler and Mary Queen of Scots, a Catholic, was the choice of some. Elizabeth had her executed. Her refusal to wed Catholic Philip II of Spain launched a war.

You can read the Papal bull against Elizabeth here:

http://tudorhistory.org/primary/papalbull.html

With Elizabeth's death, the reign of the Tudors ended. James IV of Scotland (and married to another of Henry VIII's daughters) became James I of England. More complications came along of a religious nature (such as the Catholic plot to blow up Parliment (which is remembered on Nov 5, Guy Fawkes Day, with the rhyme, "Remember, remember the fifth of November, with gunpowder, treason, and plot".

Eventually the tensions led to the English Civil War fought between the English Cavaliers and Roundheads or the Crown and Parliment. The end result was the execution of Charles I and the rise to power of Oliver Cromwell, a Protestant victory. England had a brief period as a republic and under Cromwell. He was violently opposed to Catholics and with this in mind (and there is a lot more complicated details, too many to list in a post) he massacred many Catholics in both Ireland and Scotland.

The Restoration brought Charles II, son of Charles I, back to power. A riveting novel about this time period is the classic "Forever Amber" by Kathleen Windsor. He was another Catholic monarch.

Things switched back to Protestant monarchs with William and Mary of Orange.

jcasey · May 5, 2008

Medievalist said:
Dickens' Oliver Twist 1838 Fagin

Fagin is definitely a non-C of E character but he's jewish. The anti-semitism of the time period, deplorably rampant, cannot be linked to the anti-catholic sentiments, they come from different causes altogether.

BruceJ · May 6, 2008

johnnysannie said:
Henry VIII (who founded the Church of England so that he could have the divorce that the Pope denied - prior to Henry, England was a Catholic nation) had two daughters, Mary who was a staunch defender of the Catholic faith and Elizabeth I who was a staunch Protestant.

Mary brought many of the techniques of the Spanish Inquisition to England and used them against Protestants. In the last three years of her reign alone, 300 men and women were burned to death at Smithfield for their assumed heresy.

An idea of what happened under Mary can be found here:

http://www.otteryreformed.freeola.net/rc-prot.htm

"From Foxe's Acts and Monuments it would seem certain that 289 (including the new born babe in Guernsey) died by fire and about 112 were so foully treated in prison they also died in the same cause. They included four Bishops, an Archbishop, several other Church dignitaries, and a few gentlefolk and well-to-do tradesmen. However, the greater number were humble lay folk; husbandmen, artisans, craftsmen, weavers, housewives and even apprentices and children and two blind girls. They were not accused of treason, but heresy. The executions were by burning, not hanging, drawing and quartering as for treason. The story of their sufferings is pathetic indeed. The prayers, discourses, letters and writings published by Foxe in the Acts and Monuments give evidence that they were Bible-believing Evangelical Christians dying for the cause of Christ and the Gospel. "

Elizabeth took the throne and although she was a Protestant monarch, she attempted some reconilation with her Catholic subjects. She attempted a Religious Settlement that actually made the Church of England more Catholic again but it didn't please either side. After the Pope excommunicated Elizabeth, many English subjects clamored for a new ruler and Mary Queen of Scots, a Catholic, was the choice of some. Elizabeth had her executed. Her refusal to wed Catholic Philip II of Spain launched a war.

You can read the Papal bull against Elizabeth here:

http://tudorhistory.org/primary/papalbull.html

With Elizabeth's death, the reign of the Tudors ended. James IV of Scotland (and married to another of Henry VIII's daughters) became James I of England. More complications came along of a religious nature (such as the Catholic plot to blow up Parliment (which is remembered on Nov 5, Guy Fawkes Day, with the rhyme, "Remember, remember the fifth of November, with gunpowder, treason, and plot".

Eventually the tensions led to the English Civil War fought between the English Cavaliers and Roundheads or the Crown and Parliment. The end result was the execution of Charles I and the rise to power of Oliver Cromwell, a Protestant victory. England had a brief period as a republic and under Cromwell. He was violently opposed to Catholics and with this in mind (and there is a lot more complicated details, too many to list in a post) he massacred many Catholics in both Ireland and Scotland.

The Restoration brought Charles II, son of Charles I, back to power. A riveting novel about this time period is the classic "Forever Amber" by Kathleen Windsor. He was another Catholic monarch.

Things switched back to Protestant monarchs with William and Mary of Orange.

All true, although the fact that Mary Tudor was the daughter of Catherine of Aragon (the one whom Henry VIII was interested in ridding himself of badly enough to break with Rome) which didn't foster esteem toward the newly formed Anglicans. Also, the Dissolution of the monasteries in the 1530's had a pretty ugly side toward the Catholics, too, which, I expect, added more baggage to Mary's disposition.

Nuances, nuances...

Any English Majors? History, Religion?

Ned George

Deleted member 42

Calla Lily

On hiatus

Judg

DISENCHANTED coming soon

Jenny

Who should be writing ...

Komnena

In Honor of Peter Tomich,USS Utah

Smiling Ted

Ah-HA!

johnnysannie

jcasey

BruceJ

Me and my Muse