troubled...

For "the other side" of which I am a representative, as a homosexual Christian, you could do worse than to read some of the articles listed in the sidebar of this site.

By no means do all Christians consider homosexuality a sin, and the DSM IV de-listed it as a sexual disorder. Here's a Wikipedia article on my own church's stance on homosexuality, which was developed after much study, debate, and disagreement on the issue.

Hope these links help.

As far as the prevalence of that type of thinking in the "Christian community", from my personal experience it's very common. More so in Texas than it was in California, but I encounter it all the time, and not just from dumb people or hateful people either - some of my closest Christian friends who are loving and intelligent have varying views on homosexuality ranging from "homosexual acts are wrong" all the way to an ignorant paranoia that really breaks my heart.

The funny thing is, as much as I kinda feel like a lightning rod around AW for anti-Christian sentiment, I feel more like a lightning rod around most Christians for my views on homosexuality. Eh, maybe I just crave attention.

But yeah, Oscuridad, you won't be going out on a limb if you have a Christian character who's outspoken about homosexuality being a sin.

Just re-read your post, and maybe I can help you a little more here.

Reactions to homosexuality in the Christian community vary, but there is a very large group of those who believe it's a sin. There's a lot of variance in this group--there are some attention-seeking factions who say that God hates homosexuals and that everything bad that ever happened in the history of the world is due to the fact that we don't stone homosexuals to death like the bible says.

These are a very small minority of people, and they do not represent even most evangelical conservatives.

Many who believe it's a sin also believe homosexuality is a choice that individuals make regarding sexuality, or a disorder of some sort. Current psychiatric literature disputes this opinion, but there are still Christian sects out there who try and "cure" gay people of their orientation. Such programs have been shown not to work--the co-founders of one such "ex-gay" movement ended off running off with each other.

The reactions of people to anything they don't understand, whether it's homosexuality or hip-hop music, vary widely with personality, but the underlying emotion is always fear. We're hard-wired, I believe, to fear that which we do not know or understand. (If you don't believe me, try feeding a child a new food...) Many people over-react to fear with anger and hatred. Others react by withdrawing. I've lost some very good friends, and even a job, when I "came out." Others, after a time, will react with curiosity and a genuine will to know more.

When writing about Christians and homosexuality, you have to realize that many, if not most people are largely ignorant, not only of the theology behind gay and lesbian liberation theology, but of basic biology, and basic Christian theology. My own credentials are somewhat different than average--I have a BA with emphasis in Psychology, especially in issues relating to this subject, and a Master of Divinity and a Master of Pastoral Studies, with courses in sexual ethics, liberation theology, and biblical history and interpretation.

Is there something wrong with gays/lesbians? We can talk all we want, but - for any parents of young children in here - actions/decisions speak louder than words. Here are a couple questions: Would you let the gay couple down the street take your 8-year-old son to a ball game? Would you let the lesbian couple you know pretty well babysit your four-year-old daughter for the weekend?

Regardless of their religious beliefs, most parents would answer both questions 'no'.

rwam said:

Is there something wrong with gays/lesbians? We can talk all we want, but - for any parents of young children in here - actions/decisions speak louder than words. Here are a couple questions: Would you let the gay couple down the street take your 8-year-old son to a ball game? Would you let the lesbian couple you know pretty well babysit your four-year-old daughter for the weekend?

Regardless of their religious beliefs, most parents would answer both questions 'no'.

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I'm pretty conservative, but I'd have to answer "yes," assuming I knew the people well enough to trust them with my child. I would judge them as I would anyone who was watching my child.

Homosexuality exists, and I think, for my son, it is healthier to get to know our friends as PEOPLE. Even if parents believe that homosexuality is wrong, they should teach their children to love everyone and not label people as "sinners." Even if one believes this is a sin, I defy them to find human being who is sinless.

Another unspoken point you've made is that many hetersexual people categorize homosexuality with sexual predators or child molesters. One has nothing to do with the other.

In my 70+ straight years I have worked for a gay male and have had sev eral gay co-workers (male and female) and have attended churches with gay membersI have lesbian friends who have foster kids and are numbered among the best parents I know. I cannot and do not endorse their sexual life style but have found no cause to have anything but respect for them as human beings. When my kids were in their early teens, our primary neighborhood safe house was the home of a gay male. Hey, sexual orientation (sin or not) is no basis for friendship or trust. There are of course “dangerous” gays out there and even more dangerous straight people. Sexual orientation is a poor way to evaluate another human being.

First of all, ned has absolutely nailed this one. Now, for my response:

rwam said:

Is there something wrong with gays/lesbians? We can talk all we want, but - for any parents of young children in here - actions/decisions speak louder than words. Here are a couple questions: Would you let the gay couple down the street take your 8-year-old son to a ball game? Would you let the lesbian couple you know pretty well babysit your four-year-old daughter for the weekend?

Regardless of their religious beliefs, most parents would answer both questions 'no'.

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Those are pretty provocative, divisive questions, and I don't think they serve any good purpose.

Your conclusion is based on... what, exactly? The 'most parents' I know would not agree; the 'most parents' you know may be different. I certainly don't want to be lumped in with your 'most parents', if they're looking for such arbitrary ways to reject other people.

Let me ask you this in reply: Which would you choose to take your kids to a ball game or to babysit for the weekend: a loving, responsible same-sex couple, or a married couple who are drunk or stoned and/or fight all the time?

poetinahat said:

First of all, ned has absolutely nailed this one. Now, for my response:


Those are pretty provocative, divisive questions, and I don't think they serve any good purpose.

Your conclusion is based on... what, exactly? The 'most parents' I know would not agree; the 'most parents' you know may be different. I certainly don't want to be lumped in with your 'most parents', if they're looking for such arbitrary ways to reject other people.

Let me ask you this in reply: Which would you choose to take your kids to a ball game or to babysit for the weekend: a loving, responsible same-sex couple, or a married couple who are drunk or stoned and/or fight all the time?

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Well, just to clarify, I wasn't bashing. I should have phrased the question "all things being equal", whom would you let babysit your kids the hetero couple or the gay couple? Again, we can talk all we want, but I'll still bet when it comes down to brass tacks, most parents would entrust their kids with the hetero couple before the gay one. I was trying to ask question outside of a religious context to show that not all intolerance is motivated by religion (see OP). I think it's interesting that most Christians that condemn ...:
a) ...homosexuality, probably aren't homosexual
b) ...gambling, probably don't like to gamble
c) ...drinking, probably don't like the taste
d) ...abortion, probably never had one

And, lastly, those who love the death penalty probably don't have a son on death row.

In other words, we - as humans - have become very good at condemning others for "crimes" that we know we're never in danger of committing ourselves.

I don't think God hates people.

Sincerely,
Gehanna

rwam,

Your statements are quite broad, and not always true. I know this sounds counter-intuitive, but many of the Christians who are most vocally anti-homosexual, are, in fact, homosexual. Hitler was 1/8 Jewish. There is a self-hate factor that makes some people hate and fear in others those parts of themselves they can't accept.

Many of the most vocal anti-drinking activists are those who have been there, done that, and know about the damage it causes. Same with anti-smoking activists.

As for who "most people" would trust their kids with--I've found that educated people generally are more concerned with the care that any substitute caregiver would lavish on their children than the sexual orientation of the caregiver. Case in point--my first pastoral position was as a Christian Education director of a somewhat conservative, upper middle class church. When I was hired, the Senior Pastor, who gathered from my resume that I was a lesbian, urged me to come out to the committee doing the hiring.

I did. Their response?

"If it makes a difference to anyone, shame on them!" I stayed in that congregation for five years, teaching and caring for their children. They loved me, and I loved them. And while not all of the congregation knew I was lesbian, the parents, with whom I worked more closely, did.

Yeshanu said:

rwam,

Your statements are quite broad, and not always true. I know this sounds counter-intuitive, but many of the Christians who are most vocally anti-homosexual, are, in fact, homosexual. Hitler was 1/8 Jewish. There is a self-hate factor that makes some people hate and fear in others those parts of themselves they can't accept.

Many of the most vocal anti-drinking activists are those who have been there, done that, and know about the damage it causes. Same with anti-smoking activists.

As for who "most people" would trust their kids with--I've found that educated people generally are more concerned with the care that any substitute caregiver would lavish on their children than the sexual orientation of the caregiver. Case in point--my first pastoral position was as a Christian Education director of a somewhat conservative, upper middle class church. When I was hired, the Senior Pastor, who gathered from my resume that I was a lesbian, urged me to come out to the committee doing the hiring.

I did. Their response?

"If it makes a difference to anyone, shame on them!" I stayed in that congregation for five years, teaching and caring for their children. They loved me, and I loved them. And while not all of the congregation knew I was lesbian, the parents, with whom I worked more closely, did.

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Good for you, Yeshanu...sounds like you were blessed to attend such a cool church! I agree with your comment about people hating in others that which they don't like about themselves.

This subject makes me nervous. Some of you may remember a few years ago (just before I became a mod of this board) there was quite a lot of anti-gay rhetoric here on the Christian Board. I don't intend to let it return.

That said, I don't think anyone here has done so. But I don't what this to turn into a discussion of whether homosexuality is a sin or not.

Therefore, I would like to return to the original question, which is: what is a realistic attitude for a Christian character have about homosexuality. As such, a discussion of what different types of Christians believe is appropriate. Discussion of whether homosexuality is right or wrong, is not.

So to the original question:

There are undoubtedly Christians who believe homosexuality is wrong. Period. And if you want to make your character a caricature, you could turn him or her into a Fred Phelps -- damning gays to Hell.

However, my experience with Christians is that while most of them believe homosexuality is wrong, they don't actually hate gays. Sometimes radical gay groups will equate these to things, but I don't think they are the same at all. Mostly it's ignorance. Not in some macro sense -- Christians aren't more ignorant or unlearned than other people -- but in a specific sense. Most Christians simply don't know any gay people -- or at least they don't know that they do.

So if you wanted a realistic character, you could have one that disapproves of homosexuality but not homosexuals, that is, hates the sin but loves the sinner. But further examination shows that he doesn't really know any gays or really know anything about them. You could expose these hidden prejudices and perhaps have this character recognize it in himself. A realistic end point for his change in perspective would be very much like dadburnett's above.

I agree with Roger.

But to the OP, Christian's views on homosexuality are so widespread there's almost nothing you could do that wouldn't be realistic. They can dislike homosexuality for a scriptural reason, a personal experience, or no reason whatsoever except that it "seems" wrong.

As long as the character is believable, you have a lot of options.

althrasher said:

I agree with Roger.

But to the OP, Christian's views on homosexuality are so widespread there's almost nothing you could do that wouldn't be realistic. They can dislike homosexuality for a scriptural reason, a personal experience, or no reason whatsoever except that it "seems" wrong.

As long as the character is believable, you have a lot of options.

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I agree with Althrasher. If I had any advice to the OP, it would be to avoid the stereotype of the bible-banger wagging a finger. It's pretty much become a cliche'. And to be honest, without knowing the dynamics of the relationship between the Christian and the gay characters, this is kind of a tough question to answer blind.

Roger J Carlson said:

So if you wanted a realistic character, you could have one that disapproves of homosexuality but not homosexuals,

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This is good advice Roger. Conflict within a person makes a much more interesting character, and I think this conflict of "hate the sin but love the sinner" is a topic that many Christians find perplexes and disturbs them.

Yeshanu said:

rwam,

...I know this sounds counter-intuitive, but many of the Christians who are most vocally anti-homosexual, are, in fact, homosexual. Hitler was 1/8 Jewish. There is a self-hate factor that makes some people hate and fear in others those parts of themselves they can't accept.

Many of the most vocal anti-drinking activists are those who have been there, done that, and know about the damage it causes. Same with anti-smoking activists.

Click to expand...

Very perceptive. Although it may not be that the most virulantly anti-homosexual actually are homosexual, but rather that they struggle with same-sex attaction, hate the temptation that besets them, and so come out strongly against the behavior.

I think the most difficult relationship to write about would be a parent to a homosexual child (I use the term homosexual to refer to both men and women because it is actually a non-gender-specific term). When that child comes home from college for Thanksgiving break and says, "Mom, Dad, I'm gay" (or lesbian). Could you picture that scene? And write about it? How does a parent respond? Some would be like the writer Ellen Johnson (not sure I have that name right), who went crazy momentarily beating her son and then didn't see him for something like ten years. Some parents might say, "So?", and the world goes on as if nothing happens. Most parents who believe the behavior is wrong, I believe (with no hard data to back it up), would struggle with the situation. Would they attend the homosexual wedding if that should some day take place? Should they meet the partner? Would the partner be welcomed to the parents' home? Should they be allowed to sleep in the same room on an overnight visit? I could see that these are all things a caring, loving parent would struggle with. How do you keep loving your child while disapproving of their behavior, all without compromising your beliefs? I think this would be very difficult writing.

As to the question how someone would respond, as althrasher said Christians will have a wide range of responses, from, "Sinnner!" to "Oh please, let me help you with your struggle," to "why didn't you tell us you were struggling with this," to ignoring it as a means of not dealing with it. Which group has the most people in it, I don't know.

NDG

I don't know how representative I am, but as a Christian who tries very hard to live by the Bible, I believe homosexuality is a sin. I also believe drunkenness, lying, adultery, greed, and theft are sins. It's really not clear to me why one is given such emphasis. It is clear to me that I am called to love all people, regardless of their sins. So I love my gay-activist cousin and don't bash her. I love my thrice-married relatives. I love my materialistic relatives and neighbours. I love my wayward children (and give thanks for those who aren't).

I have worked with homosexuals, had other social contacts with others and never bashed any of them. In most cases, the subject didn't even come up. I don't make a point of criticizing other people's lifestyles on any point, not because I think it doesn't matter, but because it's a wonderful way to lose any influence I might have. When the other person wants to talk about it, we talk. My calling is not to change their minds, but to show them who to turn to when they want to change their hearts. I think it's more profitable to spend my time working on the sins that remain in my own life rather than chastising others.