Why were the Dark Ages so nasty?

plunderpuss · Apr 30, 2008

I'm writing a fantasy which is a little bit parody, and I want to be sure I include every disgusting fact I can, no matter how trivial. I know much more about the 1700's than I know about any other century, however, so I need help with ~~1200-1500~~ the Middle Ages (I don't know when my story is set, but it's in there somewhere). Any SCA geeks or history buffs want to help me out?

In the early 1700's sailors had to eat bread that was riddled with bugs because they didn't have a way to preserve it, and it was their only choice. So these poor guys had to actually just take a bite out of biscuit that was squirming with weevils and chew it and swallow it, weevils still a-squirmin' all the way down. I want trivia that is absolutely disgusting!

Everything from how deep the crap on the streets actually was to grotesque medical afflictions to their remedies (bonus points if you can find something worse than leeches, especially things that actually make you MORE sick). Did people commonly eat/drink out of the same bowl/cup without washing it? (Hell, my housemate does that now.) How did they wipe their butts? Was it different for rich people vs. poor people?

...Grossest trivia (cite your source!) gets a prize of undisclosed and probably not very desirable nature. hehehe

ETA: I said "Dark Ages," but I've been corrected in the thread! I really meant "any of the Middle Ages."

slcboston · Apr 30, 2008

csinman said:
So these poor guys had to actually just take a bite out of biscuit that was squirming with weevils and chew it and swallow it, weevils still a-squirmin' all the way down. I want trivia that is absolutely disgusting!

Weevils are good protein.

Seriously though, the Dark Ages (which is rather a misnomer anyway) weren't as bad as everyone makes them out to be. Their standards were different than ours, certainly, but it's not like they were completely ignorant - for their time. And a number of things that we happen to think are disgusting actually made some sense - like not bathing. In the middle of winter, with minimal heat, getting naked and wet is just NOT a good idea.

mscelina · Apr 30, 2008

. . .

Most of this you can (and should) find out on your own. Simple google searches can provide this information. It will be better for you as a writer to research your own material--it gives you greater insight on it and allows you to make decisions about what you want to pursue and what you don't.

Failing that, you can always search the threads here. *shrug* A little effort is always a good thing to spend on your own behalf.

Just sayin'...

Sarpedon · Apr 30, 2008

1200-1300 Are not considered the 'dark ages.' I believe those are 'the High Middle Ages.'

The dark ages tend to be 800-1000, I always thought.

Calla Lily · Apr 30, 2008

Women didn't wear snoods just for fashion. Their unwashed hair was so greasy and disgusting (by modern standards) that they needed to keep it off their clothes, the furniture, other people's clothes. And I won't mention lice and fleas.

The neat castle floors you see in some movies? Hah. They scattered straw on the refectory floors because stone was cold, certainly, but the straw then gathered bugs, bits of food the dogs didn't eat, fleas from the dogs, other...stuff...from the dogs... Bon Appetit!

Queen Elizabeth I boasted that she'd only taken two baths in her life: the day she was born, and the day before her wedding.

Eww...

ETA: Sarpedon is right, so I reluctantly withdraw my QEI anecdote.

Higgins · Apr 30, 2008

csinman said:
I'm writing a fantasy which is a little bit parody, and I want to be sure I include every disgusting fact I can, no matter how trivial. I know much more about the 1700's than I know about any other century, however, so I need help with 1200-1500 (I don't know when my story is set, but it's in there somewhere). Any SCA geeks or history buffs want to help me out?

In the early 1700's sailors had to eat bread that was riddled with bugs because they didn't have a way to preserve it, and it was their only choice. So these poor guys had to actually just take a bite out of biscuit that was squirming with weevils and chew it and swallow it, weevils still a-squirmin' all the way down. I want trivia that is absolutely disgusting!

Everything from how deep the crap on the streets actually was to grotesque medical afflictions to their remedies (bonus points if you can find something worse than leeches, especially things that actually make you MORE sick). Did people commonly eat/drink out of the same bowl/cup without washing it? (Hell, my housemate does that now.) How did they wipe their butts? Was it different for rich people vs. poor people?

...Grossest trivia (cite your source!) gets a prize of undisclosed and probably not very desirable nature. hehehe

If you are looking for maximal gross-out truly awful and really true horror, surely the 20th century is hard to beat.

Higgins · Apr 30, 2008

callalily61 said:
Women didn't wear snoods just for fashion. Their unwashed hair was so greasy and disgusting (by modern standards) that they needed to keep it off their clothes, the furniture, other people's clothes. And I won't mention lice and fleas.

Queen Elizabeth I boasted that she'd only taken two baths in her life: the day she was born, and the day before her wedding.

Eww...

But she never got married. Hmmmm.

Calla Lily · Apr 30, 2008

Higgins said:
But she never got married. Hmmmm.

Blast. You're right. I know that's a QEI quote, though. Perhaps it was her coronation day.

Sarpedon · Apr 30, 2008

I thought that was Louis 14

mscelina · Apr 30, 2008

I disagree, callalily--Elizabeth I was extremely fastidious and demanded that the people around her wash regularly. "Bathing" in Tudor England referred to mineral baths, which they took for health reasons--which I believe is the basis for her comment of bathing once a month whether she needed it or not. Immersing yourself in a tub of water was an almost unheard-of practice, but Elizabeth had a bathing chamber at Whitehall (originally built by Henry VIII) that was discovered in the late 1930s during excavation.

Calla Lily · Apr 30, 2008

I retire to the corner, humbled and corrected.

Higgins · Apr 30, 2008

Sarpedon said:
1200-1300 Are not considered the 'dark ages.' I believe those are 'the High Middle Ages.'

The dark ages tend to be 800-1000, I always thought.

Your Dark Ages may vary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_ages

And for that matter "Dark Age Greece" would probaby refer to that "other" dark age between the end of the Late Bronze Age and the later parts of the Iron Age (eg after the end of the Myceanean palace culture in the Aegean)..say 1150 to 850 BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_collapse

Shadow_Ferret · Apr 30, 2008

Yes, it was dark but they had illuminated manuscripts to light the way.

mscelina · Apr 30, 2008

callalily61 said:
I retire to the corner, humbled and corrected.

Sorry if I sounded pedantic--Elizabeth I is a particular hobby of mine. I wanted to either be her or Katharine Hepburn when I grow up--and I'm not certain that they weren't the same person on some odd, existential level.

SPMiller · Apr 30, 2008

One really neat detail about this time period was the total lack of sewage systems.

Paris was the pioneer of modern sewer systems, a development which occurred during the time period you're asking about.

Before that, shit just ran down the street. Literally. You can probably take it from there... Start researching!

Don Allen · Apr 30, 2008

Something of a peculiar piece of knowledge that I just recently got from a doctor friend was the amount of ill's people began to suffer shortly after the introduction of the lead drinking mug. He was telling me that Medical historians now believe that the unpolished lead vessal caused a ton of problems during it's heyday which I believe was about the 14th through the earlu eighteenth century.
They belive that it may have been responsible for the increase in Gout, childbirth deaths, kidney problems, as well as blood disease issues. I thought it was interesting.

Don Allen · Apr 30, 2008

SPMiller said:
One really neat detail about this time period was the total lack of sewage systems.

Paris was the pioneer of modern sewer systems, a development which occurred during the time period you're asking about.

Before that, shit just ran down the street. Literally. You can probably take it from there... Start researching!

i thought it was the Romans who invented the aqueduct systems? I could be wrong..

SPMiller · Apr 30, 2008

Don Allen said:
i thought it was the Romans who invented the aqueduct systems? I could be wrong..

The Romans were amazing civil engineers. The aqueducts were designed to bring water to their cities, and in some cases we've found evidence of lead piping in city ruins.

But there's no evidence that they had a system for taking waste material away from cities, which is what sewage systems are designed to do.

Sarpedon · Apr 30, 2008

Actually, there's plenty of evidence of Roman sewage systems that did that.

The city of Rome has a famous sewer called the 'Cloaca Maxima' which was originally an open ditch, that later was covered over. In Pompei, and other excavated towns, they have discovered public restrooms that basically were seats directly above a flowing stream of water (having been brought there by the aquaduct) which carried away the waste.

I believe there is a still functioning roman sewer in a town in southern France.

Earlier than Rome, I believe the Minoans of Crete had a working sewer.

Don Allen · Apr 30, 2008

Sarpedon said:
Actually, there's plenty of evidence of Roman sewage systems that did that.

The city of Rome has a famous sewer called the 'Cloaca Maxima' which was originally an open ditch, that later was covered over. In Pompei, and other excavated towns, they have discovered public restrooms that basically were seats directly above a flowing stream of water (having been brought there by the aquaduct) which carried away the waste.

I believe there is a still functioning roman sewer in a town in southern France.

Earlier than Rome, I believe the Minoans of Crete had a working sewer.

Yeah, you know I thought i read that about Rome but I wasn't sure. I think SP is right in as much that Paris actually developed what would be the first real protype system.

donroc · Apr 30, 2008

As I was taught, have taught, and have read, the Dark Ages in Western and Central Europe date from the fall of the Western Roman Empire to about the end of the 12th century CE as a result of improved climate, end of the Viking depredations, and "culture" being brought back by the crusaders, give or take a century, except for the brief moment of glory in the Caliphate of Cordoba. At the same time, the was no Dark Age in the Byzantine Empire.

:Lecture:

plunderpuss · Apr 30, 2008

Yikes. I think I must have been really unclear about what I was trying to do here, mscelina. I don't want other people to research instead of doing it myself. I'm perfectly capable of using the library, Google, (cringe) Wikipedia. I like researching! I just wanted to have a discussion in addition to research, which I can't do on my own.

That lead mug thing is more of what I was looking for (thanks, Don Allen!). I knew they had pewter mugs, but I hadn't really thought about the ramifications of the lead content. (Or considered that they might have used all lead.) And since I AM new to researching this, I might have found it myself--but I also might not have, or not so quickly. And Sarpedon, I am so looking up the functioning Roman sewer. That probably won't have much to do with my book but who cares, it's fascinating.

Anyway, thank you to everyone who offered some trivia.

I found two good ones, while looking up the lead steins that Don Allen mentioned.

First, those little flippy lids on traditional steins were invented to keep out flies, because in the summer the bugs got so bad that several German principalities actually passed laws requiring containers be covered for health reasons. I'm already thinking of how I can describe such a delightful excess of flies.

Second, another health measure passed at the same time ordered vendors to label old or diseased meat. They apparently didn't have to stop selling it--they just had to tell you it came from a diseased animal! Can you imagine walking into a grocery store and grabbing hamburger from the "Diseased" bin?

I hope we continue to get more examples so we can wrinkle our noses and go "Ewww!" and then I can put it in a book and make everyone in SYW also go "Ewww!" (and eventually pass the reaction to agents, then editors, and finally, back to us again! hehe).

Shweta · Apr 30, 2008

Ergotism is a fun detail, though possibly not as disgusting as you want.

Basically it's a fungus that grows on grain crops and does alll sorts of lovely fun things to people who eat it regularly. quoted from that page:

Poisoning attributed to Ergot of Rye is referred to as ergotism. Although this fungus is recognized as one species, there are two sets of symptoms that can be found in cases where serious poisoning as occurred: convulsive and gangrenous ergotism.

Convulsive ergotism is characterized by nervous dysfunction, where the victim is twisting and contorting their body in pain, trembling and shaking, and wryneck, a more or less fixed twisting of the neck, which seems to simulate convulsions or fits. In some cases, this is accompanied by muscle spasms, confusions, delusions and hallucinations, as well as a number of other symptoms.

In gangrenous ergotism, the victim may lose parts of their extremities, such as toes, fingers, ear lobes or in more serious cases, arms and legs may be lost. This type of ergotism causes gangrene to occur by constricting the blood vessels leading to the extremities. Because of the decrease in blood flow, infections occur in the extremities, accompanied by burning pain. Once gangrene has occurred, the fingers, toes, etc. become mummified, and will eventually fall off as a result of infection. If the infected extremities are not removed, infection can spread further up the extremity that has been infected.

plunderpuss · Apr 30, 2008

Shweta said:
Ergotism is a fun detail, though possibly not as disgusting as you want.

Good point! Even if it's not necessarily gross, keeping it in mind won't hurt. I imagine it could be hilarious if combined with something else...

Shweta · Apr 30, 2008

csinman said:
Good point! Even if it's not necessarily gross, keeping it in mind won't hurt. I imagine it could be hilarious if combined with something else...

There's a theory that some of the witchcraft-madness (accusations, counteraccusations, people acting weird) was a result of convulsive ergotism.

Why were the Dark Ages so nasty?

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