How much cuss words are okay for Middle Grade?

Danalynn · Apr 29, 2008

How much cuss words (i.e., usage/frequency) is it okay to use for the Middle Grade age group?
(which I'm assuming is ages 9-12)

I am only talking about these:
hell, damn, and/or sh*t

Any advice????

:Sun:

(my MC is 12, though one month away from turning 13. . . .)

Claudia Gray · Apr 29, 2008

A lot would depend on what sort of story you're trying to tell, but a good rule of thumb for MG and YA is to use the absolute minimum of swearing/cursing that you can. If you're telling a very gritty, earthy story, that might be a fair bit, but basically, err on the side of caution.

BrookieCookie777 · Apr 29, 2008

I'm sure there has been many books with curse words in them at Middle Grade but, truthfully, I don't know how many of these would make it past an editor without being changed to a word less graphic. Novels for high school children are much more likely to be more forgiving on that.

Toothpaste · Apr 29, 2008

For middle grade, I'd be worried about even "damn". "Shit" is right out. Again, it isn't about the age of your MC and whether or not kids would really say those words, it's about the genre. But you can overcome the issue. My latest MG has a kid who most definitely would swear. So I write things like:

He stubbed his toe and swore loudly.

So you know he swears, but you just don't say the word.

This is also a technique seen in Harry Potter. In fact those are a perfect example of how despite the age of the characters, there is no swearing. Heck the books went from MG to YA and still there is very little swearing. This is exemplified by how shocking Mrs. Weasley's "Bitch" in the last book was.

YA on the other hand. . . anything goes.

KTC · Apr 29, 2008

I don't know. My son has shown me stuff in the books he reads and I am sometimes surprised. Shit is in there... He's 12 and these are books at his age level. He also reads adult novels at home, but I'm talking about the ones he gets from school.

Shady Lane · Apr 29, 2008

I remember when I was 8 or 9 I read a book that had "S.O.B." in it. Several times. Not "son of a bitch." The actual letters, S.O.B. And I had NO clue what it meant.

First rule is don't confuse your audience.

Damn seems fine to me. First book I read with damn it it in was when I was seven or eight. The word was actually "damnation," and my mother decided that if I was old enough to read and pronounce it then I was old enough to read it.

Danalynn · Apr 29, 2008

I only used shit once, at the end of the novel, but my MC was pretty pissed off, and was having a breakdown.

Out of curiosity, I used the find button to see what my count was. She used Damn 5 times in 40,000 words; Hell 4 or 5 times.

Though my MC does favor the lesser word Dang. She used it 10 times throughout the novel.

Toothpaste · Apr 29, 2008

KTC said:
I don't know. My son has shown me stuff in the books he reads and I am sometimes surprised. Shit is in there... He's 12 and these are books at his age level. He also reads adult novels at home, but I'm talking about the ones he gets from school.

Interesting. And heck, I totally could be wrong, has been known to happen

. Or maybe it could just be the kinds of books I write, my editors are pretty careful about what curse words get into them.

Do you mind sharing what books?

Danalynn · Apr 29, 2008

KTC · Apr 29, 2008

Toothpaste said:
Interesting. And heck, I totally could be wrong, has been known to happen . Or maybe it could just be the kinds of books I write, my editors are pretty careful about what curse words get into them.

Do you mind sharing what books?

I will have to ask him what ones I was thinking of specifically. There is a series he just went through... I remember that a couple of the main characters were black kids and basketball played a large part in the story... but I can't quite remember the titles. I will get back to you though.

MsJudy · Apr 29, 2008

KTC said:
I don't know. My son has shown me stuff in the books he reads and I am sometimes surprised. Shit is in there... He's 12 and these are books at his age level. He also reads adult novels at home, but I'm talking about the ones he gets from school.

That really surprises me. I can't imagine our school library having a book with the word "shit" in it available for check-out without a parent riot. Maybe the middle school could get away with it, but.... I know a middle school teacher who was taken before the school board to defend having copies of Art Speigelman's Maus in his class library. No swear words, but one father felt the subject matter was "too intense" for young teens. And I'm in liberal Northern California, not the Bible Belt.

Personally, with that many uses of a swear word, I wouldn't call it middle grade, and I don't think most teachers would take the chance of having their students read it. So that limits your market a little.

KTC · Apr 29, 2008

Okay...you guys had me curious. I just asked him.

Here's links;

This is just a link to Amazon. It's called ROOFTOP by Paul Volponi:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0670060690/?tag=absolutewritedm-20

His other book, Black & White (I found a review):

http://youngadultbookreviews.com/2008/02/21/black-and-white-by-paul-volponi/

Interesting to note... the review states it's for 14 and over. It is on the bookshelf in my son's grade 7 classroom. They are 12-13. He says they have the N-word, the SH-word and the F-word.

MsJudy · Apr 29, 2008

Yeah, grade 7. That's the beginning of YA, in my opinion. Teenagers.

I mean, my 8-year-old watches The Simpsons and sometimes even South Park. But I'm not as concerned about swearing as most parents I know. And at elementary, the parents have a lot more input over what books get purchased.

KTC · Apr 29, 2008

I opened my bookshelf to my son about a year and a halfish ago. I think the good will outweigh the bad. The one thing a appreciate about my own parents was the carte blanche when it came to reading (it was probably just because they didn't care but it was still something I've always been thankful for). My son is reading Stephen King right now for his bedtime book. And, PS... though I haven't had the opportunity to read your book yet, toothpaste, my son really enjoyed it. I remember him trying to tell me a few things and I just said, "tut, tut, tut... don't tell me!" I will get to it... hopefully after this writing conference is over!

Oh... and Jud... I let him read to his heart's content, but I don't allow him to watch South Park or The Simpsons. (-; I'm too young to watch those shows.

Danalynn · Apr 29, 2008

I don't think of my novel as MG, I've always thought of it as young YA, but I don't know if that's right.

Even though my MC is 12, nearly 13, my "theme" doesn't seem like MG to me. But it's not hard core YA either.

I guess I'm right on the border. . . .
Too old to be MG, and too young to be YA.

:Shrug:

I guess I need to ask my Beta Readers what genre THEY think it should be. Maybe that'll help me out.

:e2BIC:

KTC · Apr 30, 2008

Dana-Lynn said:
I don't think of my novel as MG, I've always thought of it as young YA, but I don't know if that's right.

Even though my MC is 12, nearly 13, my "theme" doesn't seem like MG to me. But it's not hard core YA either.

I guess I'm right on the border. . . .
Too old to be MG, and too young to be YA.

I guess I need to ask my Beta Readers what genre THEY think it should be. Maybe that'll help me out.

If you are right on the border (hell, even if you're not) don't worry about it. When it's ready to send out, send it... they will decide where it rests.

Danalynn · Apr 30, 2008

THANKS, KTC. I was wondering how that works. . . .

KTC · Apr 30, 2008

I had the same question. I have a critique group-- there are 8 of us and we meet once a month at my house and critique 8-10 pages of each others' novels-- I was concerned in the beginning where my manuscript fell. All 7 of the other members told me not to worry about it...

I have the SH-word in my manuscript a couple times. I can't take it out. Picture Stand By Me when Gordy discovers he has a leech on his privates... he looks down and says, "Oh shit, Chris. Oh shit!" Sometimes you need to use a word like that. I couldn't imagine that scene having as much of an impact had Gordy said, "Crap!"

I have a fire and a dead body in my opening chapter. The SH-word came out of one of my YA character's mouths. My critique group told me to leave it in.

PattiTheWicked · Apr 30, 2008

But then again, "Stand by Me" really wasn't written for kids, but for adults.

All I can tell you is my 8 year old came up to me this morning, horrified that she'd found the word "ass" in the book Matilda by Roald Dahl. This led to a long chat about how sometimes when people are really angry or upset, they use words that they wouldn't normally use, and how I knew SHE would never use the word "ass" when talking to a friend.

This was before my morning coffee. Blargh.

KTC · Apr 30, 2008

PattiTheWicked said:
But then again, "Stand by Me" really wasn't written for kids, but for adults.

Yeah, I realize that... I was just using that one line as an example.

Gary · Apr 30, 2008

There were none in the books I read as a child, so they aren't needed to tell a story, and even though I knew what they were, I didn't miss them.

Nothing wrong with helping raise the civility bar.

johnnysannie · Apr 30, 2008

KTC said:
I don't know. My son has shown me stuff in the books he reads and I am sometimes surprised. Shit is in there... He's 12 and these are books at his age level. He also reads adult novels at home, but I'm talking about the ones he gets from school.

I've had the same experience.

And unfortunately the words that my kids hear at school and on the bus are far worse than the three listed by the original poster.

It's a brave new world, I guess.

ascribe · Apr 30, 2008

Gary said:
There were none in the books I read as a child, so they aren't needed to tell a story, and even though I knew what they were, I didn't miss them.

Nothing wrong with helping raise the civility bar.

I'm with you on this. I know kids hear colourful language all the time but it somehow makes it worse reading it.
Apart from anything else, there's nothing guaranteed to date a book more quickly.
I'd avoid it as much as possible.

Tink · Apr 30, 2008

ascribe said:
I'm with you on this. I know kids hear colourful language all the time but it somehow makes it worse reading it.
Apart from anything else, there's nothing guaranteed to date a book more quickly.
I'd avoid it as much as possible.

Just dropped in and read the thread and I agree with both of you on this subject...spice is nice but only for an older audience.

Mike Martyn · Apr 30, 2008

Does anybody remember the first "swear word" they ever read?

In my case, it was an novel assigned for grade 8 literature.

"The rain made a sound like a cow pissing on a flat rock."

We were all farm boys and we knew exactly what that sounded like. It was an all boy enviroment and a reform school/prison farm to boot. So we swore like troopers and sang songs that would have curled your hair but for some reason, the use of the word "pissing" in an actual book struck us as scandolous.

Mind you, that din't stop us from describing every rain strom thereafter in like fashion not to mention all the snikering when anybody used the urinal.

How much cuss words are okay for Middle Grade?

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