Myth and Mythology - The same old stories over and over

Who knew?

I highly recommend 'The Writer's Journey' by Christopher Vogler--a lot easier to undertand and use than Campbell.

I agree with Sassenach. I have both and I find Vogler's book easier to understand. I also have The Key by James Frey, which is sort of a re-hashing of Campbell's work. It's OK as an intro, but if I could have only one, I'd go with The Writer's Journey.

I love Campbell. Google his name and you'll find a website which overviews his works, so you can find the one that most interests you.

I agree about both Campbell and Vogler. Mythology and universal resonance is important to me (massive need for approval? Who, me?), and I try to put all my stories to the Hero's Journey test. The challenge is preventing it from becoming formulaic ("Okay, here's the ordinary world; here's the call; here's the hero resisting his call..."). Not sure I have an answer for that, except that if my writing is good enough, the scaffolding will become invisible and resonate with the reader at a subconscious level. That's my hope, anyway.

I have a software program called Power Structure that is purely - duh - structural. You plug in characters, actions and scenes, and it will ask you all the important questions for each beat, scene and chapter. You can fill in as little or as much information as you want; it's more important that you understand the structure than that you make sure every last detail is in the story. Among the ways it lets you view your outline is the classic Hero's Journey.

Recently there's been some discussion about whether the Hero's Journey is an archetypally male paradigm, because it's linear and focuses on direct conflict. A typically female paradigm might be nonlinear and include challenges that are overcome by collaboration, rather than battle (for example). I have no idea what I really think of this it's just something I read about.

Personally, I'm a big fan of Jungian psychology and the concept of the collective unconscious. So I have a bias in that way.

Two more good books to read: 1) Robert McKee's Story. He's a jerk, but he knows his stuff. Even though it's written for screenwriters, any type of wordsmith can learn something from him. 2) Women who Run with the Wolves - good female archetypes to work with.

I have read about the male vs. female paradigms as well. One is more linear and external, and the other more circular and internal. Interesting stuff.

Some concepts are universal, and are re-expressed in ways relevent to changes in culture.

Nateskate said:

Some concepts are universal, and are re-expressed in ways relevent to changes in culture.

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Yes - I think there was something in the discussion about how the Hero's Journey is a Western mentality... but again, I'm not sure.

firehorse said:

Yes - I think there was something in the discussion about how the Hero's Journey is a Western mentality... but again, I'm not sure.

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I'm curious where they draw the line between East and West? If it's the Euphrates, then perhaps. But I can't say because I'm really not well enough versed in Chinese and Indian mythology? Actually, I've had some exposure to it, but in general I know much more about Middle Eastern, Asia Minor, Greco-Roman, Norse and European lore.

firehorse said:

Yes - I think there was something in the discussion about how the Hero's Journey is a Western mentality... but again, I'm not sure.

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I'm not quoting sources but I would disagree.

I believe Chinese, Japanese and Indian literature also embody the Hero's Journey.

The need to induce a mindset that would promote the values necessary for the tribe's survival (sacrifice, valor, duty) were essential to every culture and were passed on through story and myth by the tribal tale-tellers....

Folklore and myth studies generally look at myths less in terms of geographic divisions and more in terms of lingusitic groupings. Indian (as in India) myths tend to be perceived as following patterns common to Indo-European language myths--the person most famous for this kind of comparative mythology is Georges Dumeziel. The best introductory survey is Comparative Mythology by Jaan Puhvel.

But there are also a very large group of myths/tales that are called "International," since they seem to cross both linguistic and geographic boundaries of all sorts. The idea of a drowned civilization, the "Atlantis" myth is one of these; the "hero's journey," though not quite as strictly defined as Campbell would have it, is another. The idea of a great flood is a third--and there are many others.

Asian stories do have that hero's journey element in them, but not as linear and "climax-oriented."

There are the circular stories, though -- ones that do not involve in resolving anything at the end. The Monkey King, for example, is not so much about "hero's journey" even though it's very much about "journeys." Many myths and Buddhist stories are also rather circular, I believe.

I did a search for threads with "mythology" in the title; 23 threads came up and this is the oldest of them.

My next book is pure mythology and I'm finding it hard to find a forum to discuss some of the aspects that have come up -- such as creating a family tree or list of characters.

The nearest forum would be "fantasy" but it doesn't quite fit.

I wonder if there's enough interest here for a specific "mythology" forum? Members, mods, what do you think?

I love mythology. Jung and Campbell are interesting, but this is, hands down, the best book on the subject I've ever seen: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0415922224/?tag=absowrit-20

aruna said:

I did a search for threads with "mythology" in the title; 23 threads came up and this is the oldest of them.

My next book is pure mythology and I'm finding it hard to find a forum to discuss some of the aspects that have come up -- such as creating a family tree or list of characters.

The nearest forum would be "fantasy" but it doesn't quite fit.

I wonder if there's enough interest here for a specific "mythology" forum? Members, mods, what do you think?

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A lot of those things are discussed pretty frequently in the SF/F subforum. The Sandbox is a good place for brainstorming your story-specific ideas, but general discussion is fine in SF/F.

I have Vogler's book. Reading it feels like being shouted at.

I took quite a few classes in undergrad that had to do with mythology and archetypes. I took one dedicated to the Hero's Journey that blew my mind! Amazing stuff. The instructor was a mega-Jungian.

I really like what the monomyth has to say about the mythic journey and what Jung has to say about the archetypes. You should look into alchemy as well, Mike (and the philosopher's stone). It ties in so nicely.

I do think that epic tales nowadays are occurring almost exclusively in genre works. I rarely see the epic journey in literary fiction. I think that's why I love fantasy and science-fiction so much (and comic books/graphic novels).

If you want to see the monomyth and Jung mapped out to perfection in a series, watch Babylon 5. JMS' universe is so rich with archetypal material that you'll be spinning in circles.

And if you haven gotten Jung's "Dreams, Memories, and Reflections," you should look into it. Also "Man and his Symbols."

I recently read a book about the feminized version of the hero's journey. Pretty cool stuff in that too.

vlindahl said:

I love mythology. Jung and Campbell are interesting, but this is, hands down, the best book on the subject I've ever seen: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0415922224/?tag=absowrit-20

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I need to check this out! Thanks for the link.

I'm really interested in mythology and how it relates to reading/writing modern novels and stories. I feel like "fantasy" is an okay place to discuss stuff like that. Books based on myth will mostly end up being fantasy genre anyway. It's not the same thing precisely, but I think the modern audience treats it the same way. It's much easier to talk about myth as fantasy when it comes to mythology people don't believe in any more (like Gilgamesh and them), than it is to talk about living mythology as fantasy...but I think that with respect to the original material and the people who developed it, it is possible.

Aruna, are you writing about Hindu mythos? I've spent ages researching it for a story, with no one to talk to about it, so if you get me started it's possible I won't be able to stop!

firehorse said:

Recently there's been some discussion about whether the Hero's Journey is an archetypally male paradigm, because it's linear and focuses on direct conflict. A typically female paradigm might be nonlinear and include challenges that are overcome by collaboration, rather than battle (for example). I have no idea what I really think of this it's just something I read about.

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I would respond that I don't there's anything in the hero's journey that necessarily implies any kind of focus on direct conflict or battle, it's just that those happen to be characteristic of the most popular examples.

The linearity is certainly there, but again I wouldn't say that's necessarily a male-female difference, as maestro points out how many Eastern stories also follow the ideas of the hero's journey, but not necessarily in the typical linear fashion.

Kitty Pryde said:

Aruna, are you writing about Hindu mythos? I've spent ages researching it for a story, with no one to talk to about it, so if you get me started it's possible I won't be able to stop!

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Yep! It's a retelling of the Hindu epic Mahabharata, re-worked for a Western readership. I've been working on it on and off for 35 years and it's now almost ready to go... I'm quite excited, to tell you the truth, and scared as well. It's such a fantastic story. Not the Hero's Journey, but the battle between Good and Evil; with a bit of a twist. You can talk to me all you want, and read the ms if you like.

Oh, I love stuff like this. I adore the idea of the collective unconscious! It's also how I take religion, btw.

Personally, I'm not as interested in strict models like some Hero's Journeys. I'm more interested in the even more subconscious elements (that aren't quite so linear). Also, the knowledge of the specific myths isn't very important to me, so I'm no help in discussing that. But I'm your girl if you are interested in the more nebulous aspects of the collective unconscious! Archetypes or color symbolism, dreams, etc are much more my thing

aruna said:

Yep! It's a retelling of the Hindu epic Mahabharata, re-worked for a Western readership. I've been working on it on and off for 35 years and it's now almost ready to go... I'm quite excited, to tell you the truth, and scared as well. It's such a fantastic story. Not the Hero's Journey, but the battle between Good and Evil; with a bit of a twist. You can talk to me all you want, and read the ms if you like.

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oh, i'd so love to read it. I'm really into the rk narayan version, and i liked "the palace of illusion", from the female viewpoint. i've been working my way through some bits of the dry unabridged translation. I tried to read "great indian novel" but I think I was missing too many 20th century India references to get it.

I have been working on my own story, about Arjuna particularly, and I think the lack of a clear hero makes it so hard to get the story to work for a western audience. I'd like him to be the hero but in a lot of ways he isn't!

I really, really disliked the Narayan version. It's really nothing more than a short summary, without any drama; he merely condenses the original and rushes through or leaves out so many (IMO) essential scenes. Very dry and, well, boring.
I just bought the Ramesh Menon version -- two hardback volumes, beautiful covers, pretty expensive. I'm now about quarter of the way through the first volume. I think it's the best of the English versions so far, but far too long to catch on with most Westerners. And very Indian!
Mine is just one volume -- cutting to the quick!

My favourite character is Karna, and I have made him a lead. In every other version his story is just a side plot. I htink it is the key to the whole conflict, and I have written him as such.

I did an extensive study of this man last spring semester. I agreed with some of his teories, especially his hero journey and the motif and I liked the collective consciousness stuff to a degree. Sometimes his theories were a little too farfetched for me although I liked. His theory of universal themes and symbols in myths and even down to modern storytelling.