Myth and Mythology - The same old stories over and over

[Mike Martyn]

I recently bought some books by Joseph Campbell who wrote extensively about myths of varous civilizations. Interesting stuff and not just a narration of the various myth but the underlaying basis for them (sounds like Karl Jung and archetypes).

In practical terms, myths are stories we use to explain things, not just the origin of the moon , stars etc. but the choices and the journey we all make in life. These are the stories the we as novelists imho are still telling today in one form or another and that is perhaps why these are the sort of stories that appeal to readers ie: characters doing stuff, bad stuff, good stuff, heroic stuff, journey quests. It has all been told before, thousands of years ago around neolithic campfires and in Bronze Age chieftains' halls.

I recommend any of his books. They are superbly written.

Now desecending from the sacred to the profane, you can probably pick them up in a used book store for five bucks each!

[Sassenach]

Who knew? :Jump:

I highly recommend 'The Writer's Journey' by Christopher Vogler--a lot easier to undertand and use than Campbell.

[azbikergirl]

I agree with Sassenach. I have both and I find Vogler's book easier to understand. I also have The Key by James Frey, which is sort of a re-hashing of Campbell's work. It's OK as an intro, but if I could have only one, I'd go with The Writer's Journey.

[BlueTexas]

I love Campbell. Google his name and you'll find a website which overviews his works, so you can find the one that most interests you.

[firehorse]

I agree about both Campbell and Vogler. Mythology and universal resonance is important to me (massive need for approval? Who, me?), and I try to put all my stories to the Hero's Journey test. The challenge is preventing it from becoming formulaic ("Okay, here's the ordinary world; here's the call; here's the hero resisting his call..."). Not sure I have an answer for that, except that if my writing is good enough, the scaffolding will become invisible and resonate with the reader at a subconscious level. That's my hope, anyway.

I have a software program called Power Structure that is purely - duh - structural. You plug in characters, actions and scenes, and it will ask you all the important questions for each beat, scene and chapter. You can fill in as little or as much information as you want; it's more important that you understand the structure than that you make sure every last detail is in the story. Among the ways it lets you view your outline is the classic Hero's Journey.

Recently there's been some discussion about whether the Hero's Journey is an archetypally male paradigm, because it's linear and focuses on direct conflict. A typically female paradigm might be nonlinear and include challenges that are overcome by collaboration, rather than battle (for example). I have no idea what I really think of this ;) it's just something I read about.

Personally, I'm a big fan of Jungian psychology and the concept of the collective unconscious. So I have a bias in that way.

Two more good books to read: 1) Robert McKee's Story. He's a jerk, but he knows his stuff. Even though it's written for screenwriters, any type of wordsmith can learn something from him. 2) Women who Run with the Wolves - good female archetypes to work with.

[MacAllister]

Recently there's been some discussion about whether the Hero's Journey is an archetypally male paradigm, because it's linear and focuses on direct conflict. A typically female paradigm might be nonlinear and include challenges that are overcome by collaboration, rather than battle (for example). I have no idea what I really think of this ;) it's just something I read about. Hmm--coincidentally, while I was working on a new blog entry (which isn't up yet--but hopefully tonight) about the Warrior Ethos*--I was thinking about the hero's journey, and thinking about whether men and women view and value the archetypal warrior the same way, for the same reasons.

I suspect there are some fundamental gender-based differences.

Warrior Ethos:
*I will always place the mission first.
I will never accept defeat.
I will never quit.
I will never leave a fallen comrade. (from this site (http://www.1800goguard.com/service/service_ethos.html))

[maestrowork]

I have read about the male vs. female paradigms as well. One is more linear and external, and the other more circular and internal. Interesting stuff.

[Nateskate]

Some concepts are universal, and are re-expressed in ways relevent to changes in culture.

[firehorse]

Some concepts are universal, and are re-expressed in ways relevent to changes in culture.Yes - I think there was something in the discussion about how the Hero's Journey is a Western mentality... but again, I'm not sure.

[Nateskate]

Yes - I think there was something in the discussion about how the Hero's Journey is a Western mentality... but again, I'm not sure.

I'm curious where they draw the line between East and West? If it's the Euphrates, then perhaps. But I can't say because I'm really not well enough versed in Chinese and Indian mythology? Actually, I've had some exposure to it, but in general I know much more about Middle Eastern, Asia Minor, Greco-Roman, Norse and European lore.

[brokenfingers]

Yes - I think there was something in the discussion about how the Hero's Journey is a Western mentality... but again, I'm not sure.

I'm not quoting sources but I would disagree.

I believe Chinese, Japanese and Indian literature also embody the Hero's Journey.

The need to induce a mindset that would promote the values necessary for the tribe's survival (sacrifice, valor, duty) were essential to every culture and were passed on through story and myth by the tribal tale-tellers....

[Medievalist]

Folklore and myth studies generally look at myths less in terms of geographic divisions and more in terms of lingusitic groupings. Indian (as in India) myths tend to be perceived as following patterns common to Indo-European language myths--the person most famous for this kind of comparative mythology is Georges Dumeziel. The best introductory survey is Comparative Mythology by Jaan Puhvel.

But there are also a very large group of myths/tales that are called "International," since they seem to cross both linguistic and geographic boundaries of all sorts. The idea of a drowned civilization, the "Atlantis" myth is one of these; the "hero's journey," though not quite as strictly defined as Campbell would have it, is another. The idea of a great flood is a third--and there are many others.

[maestrowork]

Asian stories do have that hero's journey element in them, but not as linear and "climax-oriented."

There are the circular stories, though -- ones that do not involve in resolving anything at the end. The Monkey King, for example, is not so much about "hero's journey" even though it's very much about "journeys." Many myths and Buddhist stories are also rather circular, I believe.

[aruna]

I did a search for threads with "mythology" in the title; 23 threads came up and this is the oldest of them.

My next book is pure mythology and I'm finding it hard to find a forum to discuss some of the aspects that have come up -- such as creating a family tree or list of characters.

The nearest forum would be "fantasy" but it doesn't quite fit.

I wonder if there's enough interest here for a specific "mythology" forum? Members, mods, what do you think?

[vlindahl]

I love mythology. Jung and Campbell are interesting, but this is, hands down, the best book on the subject I've ever seen: http://www.amazon.com/Maps-Meaning-Architecture-Jordan-Peterson/dp/0415922224/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1323003811&sr=8-2

[ChaosTitan]

I did a search for threads with "mythology" in the title; 23 threads came up and this is the oldest of them.

My next book is pure mythology and I'm finding it hard to find a forum to discuss some of the aspects that have come up -- such as creating a family tree or list of characters.

The nearest forum would be "fantasy" but it doesn't quite fit.

I wonder if there's enough interest here for a specific "mythology" forum? Members, mods, what do you think?

A lot of those things are discussed pretty frequently in the SF/F subforum. The Sandbox is a good place for brainstorming your story-specific ideas, but general discussion is fine in SF/F.

[Buffysquirrel]

I have Vogler's book. Reading it feels like being shouted at.

[CrastersBabies]

I took quite a few classes in undergrad that had to do with mythology and archetypes. I took one dedicated to the Hero's Journey that blew my mind! Amazing stuff. The instructor was a mega-Jungian.

I really like what the monomyth has to say about the mythic journey and what Jung has to say about the archetypes. You should look into alchemy as well, Mike (and the philosopher's stone). It ties in so nicely.

I do think that epic tales nowadays are occurring almost exclusively in genre works. I rarely see the epic journey in literary fiction. I think that's why I love fantasy and science-fiction so much (and comic books/graphic novels).

If you want to see the monomyth and Jung mapped out to perfection in a series, watch Babylon 5. JMS' universe is so rich with archetypal material that you'll be spinning in circles. :)

And if you haven gotten Jung's "Dreams, Memories, and Reflections," you should look into it. Also "Man and his Symbols."

I recently read a book about the feminized version of the hero's journey. Pretty cool stuff in that too.

I love mythology. Jung and Campbell are interesting, but this is, hands down, the best book on the subject I've ever seen: http://www.amazon.com/Maps-Meaning-Architecture-Jordan-Peterson/dp/0415922224/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1323003811&sr=8-2

I need to check this out! Thanks for the link.

[Kitty Pryde]

I'm really interested in mythology and how it relates to reading/writing modern novels and stories. I feel like "fantasy" is an okay place to discuss stuff like that. Books based on myth will mostly end up being fantasy genre anyway. It's not the same thing precisely, but I think the modern audience treats it the same way. It's much easier to talk about myth as fantasy when it comes to mythology people don't believe in any more (like Gilgamesh and them), than it is to talk about living mythology as fantasy...but I think that with respect to the original material and the people who developed it, it is possible.

Aruna, are you writing about Hindu mythos? I've spent ages researching it for a story, with no one to talk to about it, so if you get me started it's possible I won't be able to stop! :)

[kuwisdelu]

Recently there's been some discussion about whether the Hero's Journey is an archetypally male paradigm, because it's linear and focuses on direct conflict. A typically female paradigm might be nonlinear and include challenges that are overcome by collaboration, rather than battle (for example). I have no idea what I really think of this ;) it's just something I read about.

I would respond that I don't there's anything in the hero's journey that necessarily implies any kind of focus on direct conflict or battle, it's just that those happen to be characteristic of the most popular examples.

The linearity is certainly there, but again I wouldn't say that's necessarily a male-female difference, as maestro points out how many Eastern stories also follow the ideas of the hero's journey, but not necessarily in the typical linear fashion.

[aruna]

Aruna, are you writing about Hindu mythos? I've spent ages researching it for a story, with no one to talk to about it, so if you get me started it's possible I won't be able to stop! :)

Yep! It's a retelling of the Hindu epic Mahabharata, re-worked for a Western readership. I've been working on it on and off for 35 years and it's now almost ready to go... I'm quite excited, to tell you the truth, and scared as well. It's such a fantastic story. Not the Hero's Journey, but the battle between Good and Evil; with a bit of a twist. You can talk to me all you want, and read the ms if you like.

[backslashbaby]

Oh, I love stuff like this. I adore the idea of the collective unconscious! It's also how I take religion, btw.

Personally, I'm not as interested in strict models like some Hero's Journeys. I'm more interested in the even more subconscious elements (that aren't quite so linear). Also, the knowledge of the specific myths isn't very important to me, so I'm no help in discussing that. But I'm your girl if you are interested in the more nebulous aspects of the collective unconscious! Archetypes or color symbolism, dreams, etc are much more my thing :)

[Kitty Pryde]

Yep! It's a retelling of the Hindu epic Mahabharata, re-worked for a Western readership. I've been working on it on and off for 35 years and it's now almost ready to go... I'm quite excited, to tell you the truth, and scared as well. It's such a fantastic story. Not the Hero's Journey, but the battle between Good and Evil; with a bit of a twist. You can talk to me all you want, and read the ms if you like.

oh, i'd so love to read it. I'm really into the rk narayan version, and i liked "the palace of illusion", from the female viewpoint. i've been working my way through some bits of the dry unabridged translation. I tried to read "great indian novel" but I think I was missing too many 20th century India references to get it.

I have been working on my own story, about Arjuna particularly, and I think the lack of a clear hero makes it so hard to get the story to work for a western audience. I'd like him to be the hero but in a lot of ways he isn't!

[aruna]

I really, really disliked the Narayan version. It's really nothing more than a short summary, without any drama; he merely condenses the original and rushes through or leaves out so many (IMO) essential scenes. Very dry and, well, boring.
I just bought the Ramesh Menon version -- two hardback volumes, beautiful covers, pretty expensive. I'm now about quarter of the way through the first volume. I think it's the best of the English versions so far, but far too long to catch on with most Westerners. And very Indian!
Mine is just one volume -- cutting to the quick!

My favourite character is Karna, and I have made him a lead. In every other version his story is just a side plot. I htink it is the key to the whole conflict, and I have written him as such.

[LadyDae]

I did an extensive study of this man last spring semester. I agreed with some of his teories, especially his hero journey and the motif and I liked the collective consciousness stuff to a degree. Sometimes his theories were a little too farfetched for me although I liked. His theory of universal themes and symbols in myths and even down to modern storytelling.

[Kitty Pryde]

I really, really disliked the Narayan version. It's really nothing more than a short summary, without any drama; he merely condenses the original and rushes through or leaves out so many (IMO) essential scenes. Very dry and, well, boring.
I just bought the Ramesh Menon version -- two hardback volumes, beautiful covers, pretty expensive. I'm now about quarter of the way through the first volume. I think it's the best of the English versions so far, but far too long to catch on with most Westerners. And very Indian!
Mine is just one volume -- cutting to the quick!

My favourite character is Karna, and I have made him a lead. In every other version his story is just a side plot. I htink it is the key to the whole conflict, and I have written him as such.

I'll have to check out that version. My library is pretty short on books on the subject. The other thing I've read is the ACK comics version--not many details but they get straight to the heart of the story. Also, pictures! :D

Karna is a really interesting character, another guy who is not quite a hero in the western sense. Though to the modern eye I think he is a good underdog, good guy who's been wronged type. I'm gonna be late for work so I shan't say more!

[CrastersBabies]

I think you can find the monomyth in sci-fi as well (and in other genres) but it seems to be more prevalent in fantasy.

That said, as an epic fantasy writer, I never sit down and think, "okay, where am I in the hero's journey?" I never consciously follow that pattern, but upon revision I do see where I have hit many of the markers and will take that into consideration during any changes. :)

Does anyone here actually follow the monomyth or something similar during the writing process? I'd be very interested in that!

[Kitty Pryde]

I just did a collaborative fantasy writing class with some 9-10 yr olds. Once they created characters, the story outline began to evolve. I was impressed that it naturally followed the hero's journey. So in the next class, we talked about the hero's jurney and how it's common and we compared it to Harry Potter bk 1 and Star Wars and video games. We wrote with that as a road map, a la "the writer's journey" and it went well. At that age it's hard for them to stay on track with the plot chugging along, but the Hero's Journey makes it easy to remember to keep the beat and move forward through the story. For the non-beginner writer, I think that stuff comes more naturallly or unconsciously, and the "descent into the underworld" , "arrival of magical helper" stuff is not so useful.

[kuwisdelu]

I think you can find the monomyth in sci-fi as well (and in other genres) but it seems to be more prevalent in fantasy.

Well, in fantasy it would naturally be more noticeable, since the stages can be taken literally in fantasy. In other genres, they would be more metaphorical.

[CrastersBabies]

I just did a collaborative fantasy writing class with some 9-10 yr olds. Once they created characters, the story outline began to evolve. I was impressed that it naturally followed the hero's journey. So in the next class, we talked about the hero's jurney and how it's common and we compared it to Harry Potter bk 1 and Star Wars and video games. We wrote with that as a road map, a la "the writer's journey" and it went well. At that age it's hard for them to stay on track with the plot chugging along, but the Hero's Journey makes it easy to remember to keep the beat and move forward through the story. For the non-beginner writer, I think that stuff comes more naturallly or unconsciously, and the "descent into the underworld" , "arrival of magical helper" stuff is not so useful.

Harry Potter is another super-excellent monomyth. It's one I haven't really looked at super closely, but having watched the films, he really works that hero's journey, doesn't he? And I love teaching children. They aren't so jaded by the "rules" and can just let the creativity go free. :)

[CrastersBabies]

Well, in fantasy it would naturally be more noticeable, since the stages can be taken literally in fantasy. In other genres, they would be more metaphorical.

I think you are absolutely right.