But

[black winged fighter]

What are your thoughts on starting sentences with 'But' ? As far as I can tell, despite certain grammar rules against it, it is allowed. (Does that make sense at all?)
Is it allowed in the publishing world? Do those sentences get cut/re-written more often than not?

Enlighten me, please!

[Richard White]

It depends.

NORMALLY, if I have to start out a sentence like that, I prefer to use However.

However, (see how I worked that in ;) ), if I'm doing conversation, sometimes I'll have people start a sentence with "But, . . ." because that's the way people talk.

I think "However," would be more acceptable, in general. But different editors have different ways of looking at things.

[sarbruis]

But and And are used all the time to start sentences. Use whatever sounds best and has the most impact. Most of the don't use But in the beginning of a sentence is stuff we learned in fifth grade, which is also when we were told there was no such thing as a negative number. I personally don't like to use However very often; I find it distracting and essayish.

And if I'm not mistaken, "But, . . ." should be "But . . .".

[Galoot]

I'd be interested in a grammar-god's take on this. Is there a hard and fast rule, or is it a style issue?

[Birol]

This is another one of those things that falls under the category of "Once you know the rules, it is okay to break them."

In other words, according to your high school English teacher, starting a sentence with "and" or "but" is a very bad thing. But you are no longer writing just for your high school English teacher. If it works, do it.

[jdkiggins]

I'm not a grammar-god. But, here's a few examples from A Grammar Book For You and I ... oops, me! All the grammar you need to succeed in Life by C. Edward Good. And I think this writer knows what he's writing about. :)

Never start a sentence with a conjunction
Poppycock!

Not only can you start sentences with a conjunction, but you must--if you ever want to become a good writer, that is.

Examples: Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, for one, was not at all shy about starting a sentence with And:

Courts proceed step by step. And we now have to consider whether the cautious statement in the former case marked the limit of the law.

Need more proof? Read the first sentence in the third paragraph of the Gettysburg Address. Surely President Lincoln knew how to arrange his words:

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate--we can not consecrate--we can not hallow--this ground.
(A Grammar Book For You and I ...oops, Me! All the grammar you need to succeed in Life., C.Edward Good; excerpted from pages 158-159).

This is a great book. I'd recommend it to everyone.
Joanne

[reph]

"But" as a sentence starter is less formal/academic than "However." Follow "however" with a comma except in uses like this:

However clean the floor, it never passed Grandma's critical inspection.

Don't follow "but" with a comma unless the comma is one of a pair around something else.

But what are we to do?

But, according to the detective's calculations, Dr. Monrath was on his way to Chicago when the neighbor reported hearing strange noises.

[oswann]

This is another one of those things that falls under the category of "Once you know the rules, it is okay to break them."

In other words, according to your high school English teacher, starting a sentence with "and" or "but" is a very bad thing. But you are no longer writing just for your high school English teacher. If it works, do it.


That's what I was thinking. There are questions like this that come into my head whilst writing and I remember the sweaty little English teacher and I break the rule now, just because I can. :D



Os.

[pianoman5]

Beginning a sentence with "However" (where it means 'nevertheless' or 'but') has also had its share of controversy, largely because of Strunk and White's advice to avoid it.

However, these days it's generally accepted by most authorities as a legitimate usage.

[veinglory]

It is allowed by most editors if you do it very sparingly and not when other constructions would work better.

[Note On]

Commas don't just parse sense; they also parse sound. These functions often contradict each other.

When Strunk & White's comma rules result in the wrong rhythm, and doing it the other way doesn't damage clarity, the only reason not to do it the other way is that you're afraid of nasty letters from English teachers.

You can safely disregard rules about commas after "however," but not "but," and so on. How is the sentence supposed to sound? Should there be a pause, or not?

As long as it doesn't cause confusion, use the comma or don't, as your inner ear dictates.

[Hummingbird]

Hey, thanks everybody! I was wondering about putting 'but' and such in front of sentences too. Hm... saves me the trouble of making my own thread. Lol. ;)

[jdkiggins]

But when it comes to however, there is yet another quandary.

Strunk & White encourages writers not to use however at the beginning of a sentence.

Avoid starting a sentence with however when the meaning is "nevertheless." The word usually serves better when not in first position.

Example: The raods were almost impassable. However, we at last succeeded in reaching camp.

Correction: The roads were almost impassable. At last, however, we succeeded in reaching camp.
(A Grammar Book for you and I...Oops, Me!, C. Edward Good; page 160)

And here's another testimony. You determine however you would like to use the word however. :)

When however cames first, it means "in whatever way" or "to whatever extent."

Examples: However you advise him, he will probably do as he thinks best. However discouraging the prospect, he never lost heart.
(A Grammar Book for you and I...Oops, Me!, C. Edward Good; page 160)

I hope this helps. But, rules are made to be broken. And we all break them at times. I will continue to use my reference books. At last, however, I'm using them less and less these days. :)

[maestrowork]

I start sentences with "and" and "but" a lot, but I usually try to change them during rewrite. Unless, of course, when I'm writing in a contemporary style using 1st person narration. In that case, starting with "and" or "but" is perfectly normal. "However," "nevertheless," "in addition," etc. etc. just don't sound right.

When I write, I listen. If it sounds good to my ear, I'd accept it. If it sounds awkful, stiff, unnatural, I'd avoid it.


Like someone said, I don't think it's grammar issue; it's about style.

[Note On]

Strunk & White encourages writers not to use however at the beginning of a sentence.

Strunk & White mean well.

[maestrowork]

I try not to. When I use "however," I'd write it this way:

The Smiths, however, knew just what to do with the body. July 4th was upon them.

[Susan Gable]

LOLOL - This has always been something I keep in my mind. I even have a little essay about it on my website. http://www.susangable.com/Mr.%20Solomon.htm

English teachers - one in particular - always said NOT to do it. That English teacher in my essay told me when I was a published writer, I could do it. So, I do. <G> (YES! I break the rule because I CAN! LOL!)

I wouldn't use however unless it made sense for my character to speak/think more formally.

Susan G.

[jdkiggins]

Like someone said, I don't think it's grammar issue; it's about style.

Ray,
I agree. I've said it before and I'll say it again.
"When did all the rules change?"

It's no wonder writers have a difficult time putting pen to paper; they are spending countless hours sifting through rule books and scratching their heads. :)

[Jamesaritchie]

What are your thoughts on starting sentences with 'But' ? As far as I can tell, despite certain grammar rules against it, it is allowed. (Does that make sense at all?)
Is it allowed in the publishing world? Do those sentences get cut/re-written more often than not?

Enlighten me, please!

The rule is really not to start a sentence in formal writing with a conjunction. It's fine in informal writing, or in fiction, as long as you don't overdue it. Like anything else, it's excess that that kills. It's an English teacher's primary job to teach formal writing on the theory that if you learn the rules of formal writing, informal writing is supposed to be much easier. The trouble seems to be that many English teachers forget there are other styles of writing besides formal.

I'm with Strunk & White about starting a sentence with "however." There are exceptions, of course, such as "However you slice it," but by and large, "however" belongs inside a sentence.

If "however" requires a comma when starting a sentence, you really mean "nevertheless."

What my grammar professors drummed into me was that if you really mean "nevertheless," you should never begin a sentence with "however." Wrong: "However, I don't do it myself." Correct: "I don't, however, do it myself." Or, "Nevertheless, I don't do it myself."

This is partly because most writers do use "however" when they really mean "nevertheless," and also because "however" just doesn't have the same clarity when it begins a sentence as a substitute word. When it comes to style and clarity, I think it always pays to listen to E. B. White.

And that's the thing. Strunk & White isn't just a grammar book, it's primarily a stylebook, and you can burn the stump and sift the ashes before you find a better stylist than E. B. White. I think he was right. Beginning a sentence with "however" when you mean "nevertheless" weakens the sentence and just reads poorly. Even if readers don't realize it's the wrong word, the comma pause takes away the strength of "however," and it's just poor style.

The "however" rule is one of proper word choice and style, not grammar. If you mean "Nevertheless," then say so. But of you prefer "however" over "nevertheless," then move "however" inside the sentence where it gains substance from not being the first word.

[reph]

When Strunk & White's comma rules result in the wrong rhythm, and doing it the other way doesn't damage clarity, the only reason not to do it the other way is that you're afraid of nasty letters from English teachers.

Nasty letters like D and F.

You can safely disregard rules about commas after "however," but not "but," and so on.
What? Are you saying it's all right to write "I thought the gas tank was full. However it was empty"?

[Jamesaritchie]

I would never say you can automatically disregard any comma rule, but especially the comma after "however" rule. Talk about horribly confusing. That comma is there for a reason, and it's needed. There's clarity with the comma, even if "however" is the wrong word, and lack of clarity without the comma.

One of the biggest mistakes I see new writers make is trying to use commas when their only guide is some sort of "natural pause" rule. I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "natural" pasue. Let people read unpunctuated text aloud, and they'll put pauses in all sorts of places. And unles they know grammar pretty well, each person will put pauses in different places.

[Note On]

I would never say you can automatically disregard any comma rule, but especially the comma after "however" rule. Talk about horribly confusing. That comma is there for a reason, and it's needed. There's clarity with the comma, even if "however" is the wrong word, and lack of clarity without the comma.[/i]

Yes, especially after "however." I could probably go digging for a counterexample and argue a lot, but you're right. I plead posting-while-sleep-deprived

And unles they know grammar pretty well, each person will put pauses in different places.

Sure, isn't that the point? Pauses might go in different places, depending on the voice of the person talking.

If I said one should entirely forget the sense-parsing function, that's not what I should have said, and I again plead PWSD. However (comma), the comma does have a sound-parsing function as well, and sometimes the sensible thing to do is scrape off the glop still adhering from junior high school English and put the comma where it sounds right.

There are rules.

However--they bend.

But: Sometimes they don't.

Beginning a sentence with "however" when you mean "nevertheless" weakens the sentence.

I'd be more likely to say beginning a sentence with "nevertheless" when so few people still use the word interrupts the story. It's a highfalutin' word anymore. ("Anymore" is having an interesting time lately (no comma) itself.) A few segments of the population might still have "nevertheless" on the tips of their brains; but in my experience, it's archaic. I'd hesitate before using it in a neutral narrative.

- - -

And now I've gone back and reviewed what I wrote, which included this line:

> As long as it doesn't cause confusion

So all that followed is sturm und drang signifying writers on deadlines.

[reph]

"Anymore" is having an interesting time lately (no comma) itself.
Do you mean "no space"?

May I suggest a nice nap?

[Note On]

Do you mean "no space"?

No. Where?

May I suggest a nice nap?

Lovely thought. Maybe once they're sleeping through the night.

[Mike Martyn]

It all depends on your character. (I'm good at stating the obvious).

The average Joe will start a sentence with "But", the Professor will start it with "However", the aged barrister will start it with "Never the less" and the cantankerous old fart down the dirt road will start it with "You son of a *****".

It all depends.

[black winged fighter]

Thank you for all the responses - the grammar gods have struck again!

[Jamesaritchie]

Yes, especially after "however." I could probably go digging for a counterexample and argue a lot, but you're right. I plead posting-while-sleep-deprived



Sure, isn't that the point? Pauses might go in different places, depending on the voice of the person talking.

If I said one should entirely forget the sense-parsing function, that's not what I should have said, and I again plead PWSD. However (comma), the comma does have a sound-parsing function as well, and sometimes the sensible thing to do is scrape off the glop still adhering from junior high school English and put the comma where it sounds right.

There are rules.

However--they bend.

But: Sometimes they don't.



I'd be more likely to say beginning a sentence with "nevertheless" when so few people still use the word interrupts the story. It's a highfalutin' word anymore. ("Anymore" is having an interesting time lately (no comma) itself.) A few segments of the population might still have "nevertheless" on the tips of their brains; but in my experience, it's archaic. I'd hesitate before using it in a neutral narrative.

- - -

And now I've gone back and reviewed what I wrote, which included this line:

> As long as it doesn't cause confusion

So all that followed is sturm und drang signifying writers on deadlines.

Guesss we hang out with different people. I see the word "nevertheless" often, and the people who use it are far from highfalutin'.

As for pause, epople may put pause in different places, but that is the point, and teh reason why it simply doesn;t work. Commas are not there just to indicate pauses, but to indicate parts of a sentence. When a comma is used to indicate a pause, it isn't supposed to indicate where you think a pause should go. The reader may have another opinion and will want to pause somewhere else. The comma is supposed to show where there SHOULD be a pause, no matter who is reading it.

As an editor, I can tell you that when a manuscript has too many commas out of whack because the writer tried to use them to indicate pauses, I'm unlikely to finish reading that manuscript.

An occasional goof is fine, and I have no problem correcting it. Trying to use commas with a "pause rule" doesn't lead to an occasional mistake, however, it leads the chaos. Which means more work than I want to do.

[Note On]

Commas are not there just to indicate pauses, but to indicate parts of a sentence.

I agree. However, it's only a partial statement. The rest is:

Commas are not just there to indicate parts of a sentence, but to indicate pauses. They're not only logical elements; they're also musical rests.

The comma is supposed to show where there SHOULD be a pause, no matter who is reading it.

Right.

Are we in violent agreement? Because that seems to be what I'm saying.

As an editor, I can tell you that when a manuscript has too many commas out of whack because the writer tried to use them to indicate pauses, I'm unlikely to finish reading that manuscript.

Who's talking about too many commas out of whack? I haven't suggested that commas be strewn blithely. I've said that commas serve two functions, which often come into conflict. They parse sense, and they parse sound. A writer who doesn't have an ear is probably better off ignoring the latter; a writer who does have an ear is probably better off ignoring advice.

[reph]

1. (Originally Posted by reph
Do you mean "no space"?)
No. Where?

2. (May I suggest a nice nap?)
Lovely thought. Maybe once they're sleeping through the night.
1. In "anymore."

2. Ooh, babies?

[Tish Davidson]

I just signed a book contract for a middle school non-fiction book. It is part of a series and so they sent along their house style rules that specifically say, "Do not start sentences with but, and, or however." So I guess those words will be getting a vacation from my writing for a while. In fiction, though, I can't see a problem with them so long as they don't become stylistic tics.

[Note On]

1. In "anymore."

Ah. No. "Any more" and "anymore" are two different usages. I got dinged on that one by a copy editor three books ago.

2. Ooh, babies?

3-month-olds. So my dementia is, I hope, situational.