First person help

Jon007 · Apr 22, 2008

Hi all,

I am trying to get my head around first person narration. I like the idea of using it to focus on a single character whose story I want to tell. I like the idea of playing around with an unreliable narrator. However, I can't quite figure out the 'time' issues. A FP narrator, if writing in the past tense (and present tense FP narration is something I'd rather avoid really), is presumably talking from a point in the future, maybe the end of the novel, or at the end of a large section of the novel. Correct? So I can't actually have events happen in 'real time' to the narrator - they've all happened, and he/she knows they've happened, and now they're recounting them. This is an issue for me, as it feels a little bit like the book's always looking back, into the past, rather than forwards (and it's a thing with me that I have an interest in what might happen rather than getting bogged down in the past. Doesn't make much sense, I know

).

Is there any way around this?

Yes, I know the standard 3P past tense book has similar issues, but it's not the character who's stuck in the past then, it's the frame for telling the story, which is different, in my view. I like the sense of momentum, of a story moving forward, and this 'looking back' technique in FP narration seems to stifle that.

Secondly, there's the issue of who the narrator is talking to. When I analyse FP books I read, some of them say things like 'as I'm sure you'll agree', implying they're talking to someone directly - the reader, perhaps. Again, this sort of thing sticks out to me as kind of breaking the suspension of disbelief. Although it's a cliche, I guess the most convincing FP narrator is one who has a defined and reasonable reason for the way the book is written - it's an old manuscript, someone's written a diary, or their life story, or whatever. Perhaps the narrator is talking to himself in his head. But then, no one thinks of their daily activities in a book format.

Anyway. These are issues I am having difficulty getting over, even though, as I say, I love the idea of being as close as possible to my main character (ie in first person). As I'm interested in character driven stories, with a strong focus on one character, FP seems like a good fit to me, but I'm having real trouble coming to terms with the things I've mentioned. I'd be interested in what others think about this. Maybe I should stick with a very limited third person viewpoint.

Thanks,

Jon

kuwisdelu · Apr 22, 2008

Read some first person novels and see how they handle it. Do they also feel as if they're bogged down in the past, or do they feel like they're moving forward?

I'm sorry, I can't offer much better advice. I solve that problem by going with present tense

There's one technique I'm particularly fond of, though, when writing in first person past tense, and that is when authors begin the story narration just before the real ending. Then tell all of the events leading up to the moment before the ending that began the novel. The momentum to return back to the moment of beginning--which is also the moment before the ending--can be even better than regular forward momentum.

My favorite novel that incorporates this is Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum. The novel begins "That was when I saw the Pendulum." The main character is referring to a pendulum in a museum. He's hiding in the museum in the middle of the night, waiting for the group of people who kidnapped his friend to arrive. The reader wonders how this happened--who is his friend? who are the kidnappers? what is this "Plan" he keeps referring to? And then the rest of the novel tells the events leading up to this final confrontation, before returning to the present, where the kidnappers arrive and kill his friend. Of course, by now, the reader is used to past tense, so it doesn't sound strange to use it as if present.

All else failing, forget about tense. Most readers are used to past tense and don't really think of it as being in the past. They'll just read it as present, most likely, unless you give them some reason not to.

miles · Apr 22, 2008

If you're truly writing with a "very limited third person viewpoint" then it's almost the same as first person. Everything must be through the character's eyes, and yes, he's usually looking back on events unless it's present tense.

The only big difference with limited third person is you're able to change POV characters when needed.

ChaosTitan · Apr 22, 2008

Jon007 said:
A FP narrator, if writing in the past tense (and present tense FP narration is something I'd rather avoid really), is presumably talking from a point in the future, maybe the end of the novel, or at the end of a large section of the novel. Correct?

Not necessarily. I mostly write in first person, past-tense. The one thing that I never, ever let bother me is *when* my narrator is relaying his/her story. Because in a sense, the narrator is telling *me* her story. She could very well me relaying it to me from a point thirty seconds after the event happened.

Try this:

Stand up from your desk chair. Then say, "I stood up."

Go into the kitchen and open the refrigerator. Then say, "I stood up, walked into the kitchen, and peered into the refrigerator."

Look at the fridge contents and close the door. Then say, "I found nothing appealing to my taste buds, closed the door, and wandered back to my desk."

It's all in past tense, because you are narrating to yourself the things you just did. Less than ten seconds after you did them.

Don't let the "time frame" hang you up when it comes to writing first-past. Some novels need the reader to know that the narrator is telling his/her story to someone else; it's part of the structure. But many, many first-past are simply a straight-up story, told in chronological order of events.

Ack! Off to work. Good luck!

Gillhoughly · Apr 22, 2008

What kuwisdelu said. You need to read first person novels to get comfortable with it.

You need to read a LOT of them in different genres to see how other writers deal with the device.

There's no need to re-invent the wheel when others can show you how.

Good 1st person writers I've learned from:

Conan Doyle (Watson as the narrator)
Dashiell Hammett (The Thin Man)
Raymond Chandler (Phillip Marlow series)
Janet Evanovich (Woman's point of view)
Jim Butcher (Start with Storm Front, it has fast forward momentum)

Otherwise hit your library, go to the genre you're writing in, and pick out at least ten 1st person titles. Start on the A shelf and work your way through the alphabet.

Even if you don't like the story you can learn a lot from the writer. I've learned what not to do by reading writing I can't stand!

And in the end, if you're not comfortable with writing in 1st, ditch it for 3rd. It's okay to do so!

Jon007 · Apr 22, 2008

That third person viewpoint you describe (miles) is what I'd write with. I doubt I'd change POV at all (but who knows).
Kuwisdelu, presumably at that point near the end of the novel, the narrative shifts into the present tense?
The reason I avoid FP present tense is because, well, I've had the general impression that publishers/agents aren't so fond of it, and as a first time novelist, I'd rather avoid large risks like that unless the story demands it. I do think that I might write in the present tense if I use a 3rd person POV, simply for that sense of not being 'locked in the past', but I don't know that until I start writing.

And the most powerful FP novels I've read are the ones by Kazuo Ishiguro, and they're always looking back over the narrator's life - so in that sense, yes, they are very concerned about what has happened rather than what could happen in the future.

I don't know. I'm just trying to work out where I could place a FP narrator in terms of time. I don't like the idea of whatever I write in the novel having already happened, from the narrator's point of view, but can't see a way around it unless I use the present tense.

EDIT: just read ChaosTitan's reply. This is a good way of looking at things, I think.

eveningstar · Apr 22, 2008

Could you try writing a few chapters in first person and then writing the same sequence in limited third and then seeing which one you feel works better? I agree that past tense doesn't necessarily feel like looking back because it's common, recently I've read first person present and first person past books and once I got into the story they didn't feel different at all.

As a reader, I'm quite fond of first person and I do love an unreliable narrator. My personal favorite is The Basic Eight by Daniel Handler.

kuwisdelu · Apr 22, 2008

Gillhoughly said:
What kuwisdelu said. You need to read first person novels to get comfortable with it.

You need to read a LOT of them in different genres to see how other writers deal with the device.

There's no need to re-invent the wheel when others can show you how.

Good 1st person writers I've learned from:

Conan Doyle (Watson as the narrator)
Dashiell Hammett (The Thin Man)
Raymond Chandler (Phillip Marlow series)
Janet Evanovich (Woman's point of view)
Jim Butcher (Start with Storm Front, it has fast forward momentum)

Otherwise hit your library, go to the genre you're writing in, and pick out at least ten 1st person titles. Start on the A shelf and work your way through the alphabet.

Even if you don't like the story you can learn a lot from the writer. I've learned what not to do by reading writing I can't stand!

And in the end, if you're not comfortable with writing in 1st, ditch it for 3rd. It's okay to do so!

Not to mention great classics like The Great Gatsby!

Jon007 said:
That third person viewpoint you describe (miles) is what I'd write with. I doubt I'd change POV at all (but who knows).
Kuwisdelu, presumably at that point near the end of the novel, the narrative shifts into the present tense?
The reason I avoid FP present tense is because, well, I've had the general impression that publishers/agents aren't so fond of it, and as a first time novelist, I'd rather avoid large risks like that unless the story demands it. I do think that I might write in the present tense if I use a 3rd person POV, simply for that sense of not being 'locked in the past', but I don't know that until I start writing.

And the most powerful FP novels I've read are the ones by Kazuo Ishiguro, and they're always looking back over the narrator's life - so in that sense, yes, they are very concerned about what has happened rather than what could happen in the future.

I don't know. I'm just trying to work out where I could place a FP narrator in terms of time. I don't like the idea of whatever I write in the novel having already happened, from the narrator's point of view, but can't see a way around it unless I use the present tense.

EDIT: just read ChaosTitan's reply. This is a good way of looking at things, I think.

No, Eco doesn't switch the present at the point the novel returns to the "present." There's really no need to. As ChaosTitan explained, most readers will simply see your past tense as essentially happening in the "present." The reason I presented the novel with such a setup was to show you a way to keep that forward momentum you really want in a novel that's essentially re-telling events from the past. It's certainly not something necessary for a first person past tense novel. Most authors who use it, simply think of the narrative past as a kind of "present" and never really think about it again, because of what ChaosTitan said.

But really, the best way to understand is to read lots of first person novels. And if you ever decide to try to write present tense--whether third person or first--I suggest you read a lot of novels written in the present to understand that, too, because it can be an extremely effective technique, but it's easy to completely screw up.

Jon007 · Apr 22, 2008

Thank you for your advice. The tense changes are new to me, I guess. Things like: 'I am a human being, my favourite food is tunafish. Gerald is my best friend. I looked out of the window, and decided to go out into the garden.' Or perhaps all that should be past aside from things like his name or the fact that he's a human being, universal fundamentals that would never change. In third person past, it would be... 'He was a human being, he liked this...'
Arg.

I'll keep an eye on the FP books I read to pick up tips. I think I'm getting bogged down.

miles · Apr 22, 2008

Jon007 said:
Thank you for your advice. The tense changes are new to me, I guess. Things like: 'I am a human being, my favourite food is tunafish. Gerald is my best friend. I looked out of the window, and decided to go out into the garden.' Or perhaps all that should be past aside from things like his name or the fact that he's a human being, universal fundamentals that would never change. Ugh.

I'll keep an eye on the FP books I read to pick up tips - that passage above, I think, is correct, but the tense changes concern me a little.

That quoted passage is confusing. Maybe:

I am a human being, my favourite food is tunafish. Gerald is my best friend.

Last week, I looked out of the window, and decided to go out into the garden.

seun · Apr 22, 2008

High Fidelity by Nick Hornby is a great example of 1st person Present. See if it helps.

Aegwynn · Apr 22, 2008

I'm still appalled that FP present is popping up more often in novels these days. I grew up being taught that it was a BIG no-no - and it's so strange to see that only a few decades have passed before the reading pool considered accepting it...

Interesting concerns, though. I have always read FP past in the sense that Chaos mentioned - you can narrate your own actions in FP past just seconds after they occurred. It does not necessarily have to lose the sense of immediacy that FP present writers seek, although it sometimes does lose it.

maestrowork · Apr 22, 2008

My suggestion is to get your mind over the "time" issue. Just because it's written in past or present doesn't mean the stuff is in the past, present (real time) or future. It's a literary convention. It doesn't mean anything, at least not explicitly, whether the narrator is sitting on a throne telling lies or actually running around while he dictates into a tape recorder.

As for the "audience" -- it all depends. The narrator doesn't have to have an "audience." He could simply be talking to himself for all we care. But if he chooses to talk to "someone" -- the "you" as you mentioned -- that's fine. But you don't have to. Just because you write in first person doesn't mean you have to address a particular audience. I write in 1st person all the time (my blog, my journal, posts on AW) and most often nobody reads it anyway. I'm not writing to any person per se... I'm just expressing myself.

maestrowork · Apr 22, 2008

seun said:
High Fidelity by Nick Hornby is a great example of 1st person Present. See if it helps.

Ahem.. READ MY BOOK!

I'm still appalled that FP present is popping up more often in novels these days. I grew up being taught that it was a BIG no-no - and it's so strange to see that only a few decades have passed before the reading pool considered accepting it...

Oh, no, not that discussion again.

It's like saying "I'm appalled that urban fantasy is popping up more often in novels these days..." Just because it's something you're not used to reading/seeing doesn't mean it's not good. Plenty of people like 1st person/present.

Jon007 · Apr 22, 2008

Yes. This comes back to my original point - the narrator is quite a bit ahead of the story. I liked miles' suggestion: consider the narrator 5 seconds ahead of what happens - I was trying to see how to use that with the passage I wrote, and you're right, it is confusing. I'm not sure how else to do it, though.

Assuming I want 'I am a human being', or something similar, such as, 'My name is Fred,' I'm trying to work out how to mix that into miles' past tense suggestion. Hope this makes sense.

I could just jump straight into the story, as below:

I looked out of the window, and decided to go out into the garden. One of the gnomes was missing, I noticed. Although I searched, I couldn't find him anywhere, so I went back inside and made myself a cup of tea, considering my next move.

My name, by the way, is Fred, and I'm a human being. My best friend is Gerald, who works as a mechanic. Anyway.

I glanced back outside again, and this time, not only was the gnome still missing, but a substantial section of the hedge had vanished.
(etc - excuse the randomness of the example, heh.)

---
how's that? Maybe it should be I was a human being etc. Or perhaps the problem is the fact that he's introducing himself - implying that he's narrating to someone specifically, and thus giving him a set point in time to narrate from, rather than the arbitrary 'five seconds in the future'. It's the narrator acknowledging the fact that someone's listening...

Am I overcomplicating this? :/ It's just I have a beginning I am pleased with, and it involves the character introducing himself in this manner.

miles · Apr 22, 2008

Jon007 said:
I looked out of the window, and decided to go out into the garden. One of the gnomes was missing, I noticed. Although I searched, I couldn't find him anywhere, so I went back inside and made myself a cup of tea, considering my next move.

My name, by the way, is Fred, and I'm a human being. My best friend is Gerald, who works as a mechanic. Anyway.

I glanced back outside again, and this time, not only was the gnome still missing, but a substantial section of the hedge had vanished.

As far as the tense issues, that's fine.

As far as the writing, not so much.

Jackfishwoman · Apr 22, 2008

My advice for writing in the first person is to write as though it is actually you thinking/talking and not some made-up being. Become the character, like an actor must. So then, when you have to think about (or describe) the past, write it as you would do in your own head. That's the beauty of writing first-person narratives: you are inside that character's head so you can make s/he have the silliest/most disturbing thoughts - like people do everyday in their own minds.
In my novel Jackfish, The Vanishing Village (pub'd in December), it is largely a first-person narrative flipping back & forth present to past, past to present. The first person present or "real time" scenes are always in present tense and the "flashback" scenes from long ago are always in past-tense. Just as long as you are consistent.

ToddWBush · Apr 22, 2008

If I may throw in a basic, unpublished novice's advice:

I use this when helping my friends with their golf swings, but here goes. Don't over think it. If you are thinking about tense and voice and all that technical stuff too much, then writing a novel (something that should be a LOT of fun) will become like work (something that truly blows, hence all of us trying to write for a living).

Take a step back from it, then just write. Sorry if that sounds simple, but usually a simple solution is the best one.

thequotegal · Apr 22, 2008

I write first person present. I don't know why I do, it just comes into my head like that and then bllrreep, it's on the screen like that. I absolutely love the sense of immediacy it gives. My 1st person voice is often quite unreliable as well, adding to the challenge. I switch to the past tense when I'm recounting an event of course, but I also go into future tense if I'm predicting how something will go, and it's always fun when the voice is completely off base. I can hardly write any other way, so I really think some people have this innate "sense of tense" in them, like being born left-handed.

Aegwynn · Apr 22, 2008

maestrowork said:
Oh, no, not that discussion again. It's like saying "I'm appalled that urban fantasy is popping up more often in novels these days..." Just because it's something you're not used to reading/seeing doesn't mean it's not good. Plenty of people like 1st person/present.

LOL. Oh yes, I know that. I am just surpised to see it so popular, considering how staunchly adamant all of my educators were. As a little kid, I thought everyone was taught the same. It's taking a long time to undo those teachings of childhood!

I have a really difficult time with FP present for that reason. But the only positive that I do see about it is the sense of immediacy that comes with it. If you're writing a scene where you want to get your readers' adrenaline pumping, FP present does a good job.

maestrowork · Apr 22, 2008

Simply put, as far as distance is concerned, 1st/present is the "closest" POV (some may argue that 2nd person is the closest since the "you" is the reader, but I don't agree). So if you want to be ultra intimate with the readers, go with 1st/present.

She_wulf · Apr 22, 2008

One of the things I see bashed in first person is the "distance" people complain about when reading it. It seems to happen more often when there are a lot of sentences that contain "I"...

So which is better:
"I looked out of the window, and decided to go out into the garden. One of the gnomes was missing, I noticed. Although I searched, I couldn't find him anywhere, so I went back inside and made myself a cup of tea, considering my next move."

Or
"One of the gnomes was missing. No matter which pane of millioned glass I peeked out of the little elf was no were to be seen. That was very odd. The only access to my back yard was through the house. He was there this morning when I watered the grass, now POOF! Gone.

It just didn't sit right with me so I went out to search for him. His contemporaries were there, the wheel-barrel-pusher, the sprinkler can guy and even the pot bellied laugher. But that mischievous one in the red hat who was half mooning the back door was gone. Returning to the house, I made myself a cup of tea to pick the mystery apart."

Five I's in the first piece, Four I's in the second piece... different word count, different tones.

Which one in your opinion draws the reader in?

Birol · Apr 22, 2008

Jon007 said:
Yes, I know the standard 3P past tense book has similar issues, but it's not the character who's stuck in the past then, it's the frame for telling the story, which is different, in my view. I like the sense of momentum, of a story moving forward, and this 'looking back' technique in FP narration seems to stifle that.

As others have suggested, pick up some books with a first person narrator and read them.

I'll add The Turn of the Screw by Henry James to the list(s) already given to you.

Jon007 said:
how's that? Maybe it should be I was a human being etc. Or perhaps the problem is the fact that he's introducing himself - implying that he's narrating to someone specifically, and thus giving him a set point in time to narrate from, rather than the arbitrary 'five seconds in the future'. It's the narrator acknowledging the fact that someone's listening...

Call me Ishmael.

Am I overcomplicating this? :/ It's just I have a beginning I am pleased with, and it involves the character introducing himself in this manner.

You really are overcomplicating it. Don't get stuck with the analysis. Just sit down and write. Fix the problems after you get the story down. If you keep going on like this, you'll never get your story told.

Nakhlasmoke · Apr 22, 2008

Ugh FPP bashing. What joy. *rolls eyes like a five year old*

She-wulf - I like your example there, very good.

Jon007 · Apr 23, 2008

She_wulf said:
One of the things I see bashed in first person is the "distance" people complain about when reading it. It seems to happen more often when there are a lot of sentences that contain "I"...

So which is better:
"I looked out of the window, and decided to go out into the garden. One of the gnomes was missing, I noticed. Although I searched, I couldn't find him anywhere, so I went back inside and made myself a cup of tea, considering my next move."

Or
"One of the gnomes was missing. No matter which pane of millioned glass I peeked out of the little elf was no were to be seen. That was very odd. The only access to my back yard was through the house. He was there this morning when I watered the grass, now POOF! Gone.

It just didn't sit right with me so I went out to search for him. His contemporaries were there, the wheel-barrel-pusher, the sprinkler can guy and even the pot bellied laugher. But that mischievous one in the red hat who was half mooning the back door was gone. Returning to the house, I made myself a cup of tea to pick the mystery apart."

Five I's in the first piece, Four I's in the second piece... different word count, different tones.

Which one in your opinion draws the reader in?

Interesting comparison. I think the second piece just has more character to it than the first, which may or may not be to do with the 'I's, but certainly is due to the amount of effort put into it compared to my example. The most beautiful FP writing I've read, as I mentioned before, is Kazuo Ishiguro, and I wouldn't say that's down to the amount of 'I's he uses (though it might well be!).

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