Fantasy or Science Fiction?

[General Scorch]

Okay, so I just finished writing a novella for english class (started as a short story, but I just couldn't let the thing die), and I had a question concerning the Sci-Fi genre vs. the Fantasy genre.

Here's a quick overview of the story: Magic Vs. Technology. There's some gruesome torture (which almost made me consider horror as a genre because I made a gothic kid vomit in class). Also, there's a lot of fake (made-up) religion.

Now, given that, you might see my problem already. Does magic have a big role in the story? Yes. Does technology have a big role in the story? Of course. However, my english teacher refuses to let me write sci-fi/fantasy on my "query letter" that's due in a few days.

What would be the appropriate term to call this story? My english teacher is super strict and warned us that if we didn't label the story properly, he'd dock the grade by a lot. I asked him, but he refuses to tell me how to label it (I'm kind of doubting that he even knows).

If you want more details about the story, feel free to ask if you think it'll help you help me with this problem.

I was pretty sure that this was the proper place to put this thread, and I apologize if I made a mistake. I tend to do that a lot for some reason :(

[Dommo]

Just call it sci-fantasy. Then you've got all of your bases covered :P

[Matera the Mad]

I would say that it is fantasy, since any strict hard-core science fiction devotee would scream bloody murder if you called anything with magic in it sci-fi. I've been a reader in both genres for a long time.

[Dommo]

Meh, most science fiction isn't "science" in my book(I am a Mechanical Engineer by trade so my physics BS detector is very sensitive). A lot of books called science fiction are really fantasy. It is kind of a shame that so much space opera and such, is classified as Sci-Fi, when it's really more or less fantasy.

I guess it's more of a question of personal definition, but I think I'd like sci-fi to be defined more by the hard sci-fi type books then space opera(Not that I don't enjoy space opera, but I can't in my mind bring myself to consider it in the least scientific). I'd really like for more realism to be injected into books, as I think fact is often more fascinating than fiction.

*Sigh* If only Asimov, Clark, Heinlein and the like hadn't all died off. There just hasn't really been anyone to fill their shoes(although I have to say that I'm really starting to like Scalzi, and perhaps he'll hop into the role). Ah well, I'll go crawl under my rock now.

[SPMiller]

Yup, I'd argue hard sf is almost dead. There's so much bad science in so-called "hard sf" I want to puke when I read it. Kind of like the goth kid in your class.

The problem is, in my opinion, that most ordinary people can't understand the novel concepts in science anymore. You basically have to present everything "as magic" or you lose their interest. Scientific details aren't accessible.

Now, you could invoke Clarke's rule here (sufficiently advanced tech = magic), but if you have unrealistic additions to the laws of physics as we understand them (such as magic), then you have straight fantasy. Sorry.

For example, one of my dirty little secrets is that I like to write about artificial intelligence. Unfortunately, I have a much deeper understanding of it than many writers/readers, and it's difficult to present my ideas/predictions without their eyes glazing over. They might have some vague guess at what a neural network is, but they don't have any clue what the hell a rational agent is, much less how the two concepts differ. That's where science-as-magic comes into play. Just point at the pretty black-box tech and merely state, "it does thing X and that's all you need to know".

[Dommo]

I'm glad I've got a comrade in arms SPMiller :)

I really do fear the dumbing down of everything. I think engineers like myself and scientists need to get up off our asses and start writing hard sci-fi again. However, I don't think things need to be dumbed down so much, as guys like Asimov and Heinlein did a great job describing different science fiction stories, as have the guys like Gibson who got the cyberpunk ball rolling. They were immensely popular, but it's because at heart they were stories about PEOPLE.

To much of this stuff coming out now just feels like technological masturbation, for it's own sake. Science fiction at it's core was always, and should always be about people and societies. The science simply allows for the exploration of new environments and ideas. In fact I'll even go and say that scientific details aren't so important as long as the implications of the science are realistic.

In other words the exact way that an AI works may not be so important, as how it could possibly interact with people or other AI. Sure some detail is needed, but if you can truly create a being with the kind of impact of HAL from 2001, then I don't think the actual science is so important as long as it's at its root plausible and believable.

I'm going to have to say that I really like Scalzi. What I like so much is that while he doesn't get into to much technological depth, and it is at its heart a space opera(the old man's war trilogy), the ideas are right out of Heinlein. The politics and philosophical implications of the book more than counteract the fact that it's a bit loose on the science end. I can live with the fact that the physics aren't quite up to my level of accuracy, because the ideas are GOOD and thought provoking. I also have to hand it Scalzi, because his books are accessible to everyone, yet are not dumbed down to the point of where I would lobotomize myself.

[SPMiller]

To much of this stuff coming out now just feels like technological masturbation, for it's own sake. Science fiction at it's core was always, and should always be about people and societies. The science simply allows for the exploration of new environments and ideas. In fact I'll even go and say that scientific details aren't so important as long as the implications of the science are realistic.

In other words the exact way that an AI works may not be so important, as how it could possibly interact with people or other AI. Sure some detail is needed, but if you can truly create a being with the kind of impact of HAL from 2001, then I don't think the actual science is so important as long as it's at its root plausible and believable.
I just can't quite be that lax in my definition. The science needs to play such an important role in the story that without it the plot would no longer work. If I were to provide a definition for sf, I'd say it's speculation on the impact of future technological development on society. Not necessarily a human society, mind you! Without the tech, the story doesn't exist, and if the tech can be cut while keeping the story intact, it should be.

Like, without HAL, there would no longer be conflict in 2001.

I apply the same rule to fantasy. If I can get rid of the magic and keep the story intact, goodbye magic!

[Ravenlocks]

Here's a quick overview of the story: Magic Vs. Technology. There's some gruesome torture (which almost made me consider horror as a genre because I made a gothic kid vomit in class). Also, there's a lot of fake (made-up) religion.

Now, given that, you might see my problem already. Does magic have a big role in the story? Yes. Does technology have a big role in the story? Of course. However, my english teacher refuses to let me write sci-fi/fantasy on my "query letter" that's due in a few days.
Science fantasy? Urban fantasy? Steampunk? Not sure which best describes your story, but maybe one of those labels would work.

[Paichka]

Why not just call it "Speculative Fiction"?

[Ruv Draba]

My take is somewhat different from previous comments, General S. I don't have enough to form a strong view, so I'd like to ask you some questions.

Would you say that the major themes are more about a) morality, psychology and society or b) new technologies & methods, frontiers and their consumers/explorers?

In resolving contested situations, would you say that the resolutions are a) mainly symbolic - there's a metaphysical reason for the resolution that may or may not be grounded in the physical; or b) mainly analytic, rational and physical - in working out the physical hows and whys, characters are able to resolve the situation?

If you're answering a) consistently then I'd suggest that it's probably fantasy - because regardless of premise and setting, all the recognised classics of fantasy seem to have these qualities. If you're answering b) consistently then I'd suggest that it's probably science fiction - because despite how far-fetched the magical premise might be, the concerns and resolution share qualities in common with the recognised classics of Sci Fi.

If you have a mix (e.g. more a) than b) on themes, but the reverse on resolutions) then it might be something else - perhaps science fantasy or some kind of magical realism. Or it might defy clear genre pegging. I'd need to know more about the story to form a clearer view.

Hope this might be useful.

[Shweta]

I'd call it interstitial fiction (http://www.interstitialarts.org/what/intro_toIA.html). That's probably true (has aspects of multiple genres without properly fitting any genre) and also sounds pretentious enough* to make an english teacher who is anti sf/f happy :D

ETA: Though I'm also pro-Paichka's suggestion and Ruv's. Funny how that goes.


* The term could sound pretentious, I mean. To people who don't know what it is. The actual interstitial arts folks I know are wonderful well-grounded people without an ounce of pretention to go with their gallons of knowledge and overall coolness. And I don't just say this because I consider myself an interstitial kid...

[Keyan]

Okay, so I just finished writing a novella for english class (started as a short story, but I just couldn't let the thing die), and I had a question concerning the Sci-Fi genre vs. the Fantasy genre.

Here's a quick overview of the story: Magic Vs. Technology. There's some gruesome torture (which almost made me consider horror as a genre because I made a gothic kid vomit in class). Also, there's a lot of fake (made-up) religion.

Now, given that, you might see my problem already. Does magic have a big role in the story? Yes. Does technology have a big role in the story? Of course. However, my english teacher refuses to let me write sci-fi/fantasy on my "query letter" that's due in a few days.

What would be the appropriate term to call this story? My english teacher is super strict and warned us that if we didn't label the story properly, he'd dock the grade by a lot. I asked him, but he refuses to tell me how to label it (I'm kind of doubting that he even knows).

If you want more details about the story, feel free to ask if you think it'll help you help me with this problem.

I was pretty sure that this was the proper place to put this thread, and I apologize if I made a mistake. I tend to do that a lot for some reason :(

I think "Speculative Fiction" would cover it. Or you could call it "speculative fantasy."

[sunandshadow]

I'd call it whatever gets the grade, probably fantasy.

[Nakhlasmoke]

I'm thirding (fourthing?) Speculative Fiction.

[Sassee]

What would be the appropriate term to call this story? My english teacher is super strict and warned us that if we didn't label the story properly, he'd dock the grade by a lot. I asked him, but he refuses to tell me how to label it (I'm kind of doubting that he even knows).

Your teacher sounds like an ass. Just thought I'd throw that out there. I really have no valuable input on this question ;)

[General Scorch]

Okay, all, thanks for the help. My teacher is a total jerk and refuses to let me use any "specific" terms like you've all said (speculative fiction, urban fantasy, intersistial fiction), so I'm just going to call it fantasy. Knowing my luck, he'll be a hard-core fantasy fan and say: "oh, science, you mislabeled this!" Ack.

Oh, and Sassee, ass does not even begin to describe my honors english teacher. He claims to hate reading with a passion.

ANYWAY, thanks for the input, it's all been very helpful. Scorch out.

[sanctuary6284]

Why is he teaching English? Did he lose a bet?

[Straka]

I'd look past the magic vs tech idea. Instead consider, quoting Cory Doctorow and Karl Schroeder (The Complete Idiot's Guide to Publishing Science Fiction):

"Most science fiction is fundamentally materialistic, it's founded on the belief in the objectivity of the world. Fantasy, on the other hand, is usually idealistic: In fantasy, the inner world of the psyche is often more real that the physical world. Indeed, the physical world is little more that a cloudy mirror reflecting the soul."

[Sarpedon]

an HONORS english teacher who hates reading? What kind of cut rate school do you go to? Who teaches the regular english classes, Kyrgyz immigrants? Even in my crappy school our honors english teachers were genuinely well read.

Someone needs to have a talk with the Superintendant.

[JimmyB27]

Okay, all, thanks for the help. My teacher is a total jerk and refuses to let me use any "specific" terms like you've all said (speculative fiction, urban fantasy, intersistial fiction), so I'm just going to call it fantasy. Knowing my luck, he'll be a hard-core fantasy fan and say: "oh, science, you mislabeled this!" Ack.

Oh, and Sassee, ass does not even begin to describe my honors english teacher. He claims to hate reading with a passion.

ANYWAY, thanks for the input, it's all been very helpful. Scorch out.
No specific terms? Just call it 'fiction' then.

[Straka]

Why is he teaching English? Did he lose a bet?

seriously, the guy sounds like a bum.

[Sassee]

Okay, all, thanks for the help. My teacher is a total jerk and refuses to let me use any "specific" terms like you've all said (speculative fiction, urban fantasy, intersistial fiction), so I'm just going to call it fantasy. Knowing my luck, he'll be a hard-core fantasy fan and say: "oh, science, you mislabeled this!" Ack.

Oh, and Sassee, ass does not even begin to describe my honors english teacher. He claims to hate reading with a passion.

ANYWAY, thanks for the input, it's all been very helpful. Scorch out.

My eye, it twitches.

[SPMiller]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, the OP is lucky to not be automatically failed for even mentioning speculative fiction in an English class.

They hate us.

[MilesGX]

Why not a science fiction fantasy hybrid story? Magic combine with technology can be very cool.

[Smiling Ted]

How about Techno Fantasy?

[MilesGX]

That sounds cool.

[Sarpedon]

Don't forget to come back and tell us how it went. It always makes me sad when someone asks for something for an assignment, and then doesn't come back and tell what happened.

[SPMiller]

Don't forget to come back and tell us how it went. It always makes me sad when someone asks for something for an assignment, and then doesn't come back and tell what happened.
Like that one time in sf/f SYW. I know which thread you're talking about.

[Sarpedon]

You know it.

[Straka]

The only time in high school I remember doing creative writing was freshman year when we learned short stories. Mine and this other kids got published in the school paper. His was very good which surprised me. A few years later I saw a twilight zone episode that match his exactly....

[General Scorch]

Okay, so I handed in that letter thing yesterday and today the teacher asked me to stay after class to discuss some 'issues' with my letter. He said he liked the pitch and teaser parts, but felt calling my story fantasy was "inappropriate" for the story (he read it before hand and we're just wrapping up the final projects. He said that the story more or less resembled science fiction. I argued this and said that most wouldn't consider this story as science fiction because of the many fantasy elements (I.E., the religious aspects throughout the novella and the magic).

The teacher then got really smug at this point. He told me that because of the technological aspects I presented, including the hinting to the use of alchemy. He said it would've been considered fantasy if it had mythologic creatures or something in it. I replied by explaining that to some (which, at this point I just started BSing an argument) aliens can be considered as mythological. He got angry and said "in all the fantasy books I've read. I've never seen a reference to technology in such a way as you've presented."

Without even thinking, I said "well, Mr. X (not his real name), I think that's a bit unfair, considering you only read when required by your job. Didn't you say that you hated reading?"

"I only hate reading what the school makes us read."

"Then how is it that I've never seen you read a book once?"

"That's none of your concern."

And then I muttered, "well, if you didn't chain us [the students] down with this letter, maybe it would've been better."

He then looked down at his watch and said "You got the score you deserved, and I won't change it."

By the way, I got a freaking C all because of an opinionated call on the genre classification. Figured I should come back and tell you all what happened. Thanks for the help with this. I honestly think this teacher has a grudge against me because of my accomplishments as a wannabe writer.


Don't forget to come back and tell us how it went. It always makes me sad when someone asks for something for an assignment, and then doesn't come back and tell what happened.

[SPMiller]

I'm trying to moderate my tone here: apparently your teacher is one of those guys who considers Star Wars to be science fiction.

Don't say that to his face, though. I'm sure it would hurt his poor little feelings.

Now, it's possible that you've inadequately described the story such that we weren't able to draw a firm conclusion as to the story's genre, but to me it really felt like fantasy according to what you told us.

I'm thinking about Dan Simmons' Hyperion Cantos as I'm typing this. Science fiction? Hell no. It has backwards time travel, and an invented sub-dimension, and FTL drives, and a goddamn flying carpet, and parasites that resurrect you despite violations of the laws of physics, and the concept that love = magic. None of that remotely fits with science as we understood it in the late 80s. Yet it was labeled sf. Why? Because of people like your teacher who think that technology and spaceships mean sf. Which isn't true.

[Shweta]

Your teacher seems enamoured of the superficial, Scorch. Which I'm sorry to hear, and sorry you have to deal with.
I suspect that until teachers are given adequate compensation and respect, this sort of thing will keep happening -- that the people teaching* are the people who can't do better, rather than the people who want to teach. That makes me sad.

* Not all, of course. My mother-in-law, who is absolutely awesome, left an IT job to teach because she believes in teaching. But not everyone has that option.

[Dommo]

Man I hate asshole teachers like that. But the unfortunate truth, is that in the liberal arts(due to the subjective nature of grading), pretty much puts you in a pickle.

I thankfully haven't had those kinds of problems with any of my english professors and the like, but I did with a math professor. He might have been a dick, but he knew he couldn't screw me over since I could always show my graded assignments to other math faculty(and it would be pretty damn obvious if he was screwing me on math problems).

If that is the one thing I do pity english majors on, is that they have to deal with subjective grading far more often then I ever had to with Math/Physics/Engineering classes(Not to say there isn't a subjective element to it, especially senior projects where we are essentially doing unpaid engineering work for companies or the university). I can't imagine what it would be like to have to deal with some professor for 4 years who hates your guts, yet due to subjective grading can pretty much fuck you over without you really having a recourse.

[Sarpedon]

What an asshole! Total power trip.

And unfortunately, you probably learned little about english from this guy, but a lot about how you sometimes have to make choices between your personal integrity and pleasing those in power above you.

At least high school doesn't last forever. We think you did a good job, for what its worth.

[waylander]

So the perfect answer to this jerk is to sell the story somewhere.
You might put in in SYW so some people who really do know about Science Fiction and Fantasy can have a look at it

[Sassee]

I would send your teacher a link to this thread and watch his face turn purple as he realizes his mistake.

[Sarpedon]

Oh no, don't send your teacher a link to this thread. We are all sitting around calling him an asshole. He can't punish us, but he can punish you. When you have to deal with difficult people, be cynical.

[Judg]

The term speculative fiction was invented precisely because it is so difficult to draw the lines between the two. It's a spectrum.

For what it's worth, it's usually better to try to deal with these people by treating them as if they were actually reasonable. It's amazing how often they'll rise to the expectation. Arguing with them is about as useful as banging your head on the wall, because they shift automatically into defensive mode. I learned this the hard way.

[HeronW]

Good people teach us about them, bad people teach us about ourselves.

Replace 'people' with 'teachers' and that goes even further. Unfortunately he's a terrible teacher, a lousy critiquer and hates his job. You can't do anything about this.

You can keep loving to read, to write, to discuss all sorts of things about both and to let this unhappy person stay in his hole.

[Storm Dream]

General, if you want to make a fight over it you can certainly contact administration and get them involved. It could be fun. ;)

(Or traumatic. But mostly fun. I had one particularly awful teacher in HS that I took to task with the vice princ...&@#^ was tenured so he wouldn't do anything about it, but I felt better.)

[ChaosTitan]

Oh no, don't send your teacher a link to this thread. We are all sitting around calling him an asshole.

Then perhaps we should continue this discussion, sans name calling. We may not agree with this teacher's decisions or actions, but let's not stoop so low.



ETA: This is not directed at Sarpedon, but at a general "you."

[yappo]

Apart from your teacher being an illiterate moron unversed in the genre he wanted you to label your work within, the term you're after is Science Fantasy. See http://www.sfsite.com/columns/amy26.htm for a definition accepted in most circles with at least a basic knowledge of speculative fiction.

Sten

[Sarpedon]

And thats where we disagree. We have an iliterate who hates his job which he is grossly unqualified for taking out his frustration on defenseless child who merely disagrees with him on a purely subjective matter. Such a person deserves little respect.

Tolerance is a good thing when it is tolerance of trivial differences for the benefit of the community. Tolerance of antisocial and abusive behavior is not a good thing. The tragedy is that doing nothing is General Scorch's best option, as anything else will waste valuable time that he could spend learning, and expose him to other retaliation. His teacher is despicable, and I wouldn't care if he knew I thought so or not if I didn't think he'd take it out on Scorch.

[SPMiller]

If the teacher really did dock the student's grade based on the genre categorization--while refusing to allow him to use a more descriptive label--I have to say that asshole does, in fact, apply to said teacher.

If, on the other hand, the grade was based on the content of the work, that's reasonable.

But as it stands, I'm quite upset.

[slcboston]

Here's what you do: you adhere to whatever the teacher says. Then proceed to stick to your ambitions and dreams. Years later, when that first book is published, or your first short story, or whatever it is that says you've made it as a writer...

You sign a copy and mail it to them. :D

(My 7th grade English teacher is on my own list, btw.)