Fantasy or Science Fiction?

Just call it sci-fantasy. Then you've got all of your bases covered

I would say that it is fantasy, since any strict hard-core science fiction devotee would scream bloody murder if you called anything with magic in it sci-fi. I've been a reader in both genres for a long time.

Meh, most science fiction isn't "science" in my book(I am a Mechanical Engineer by trade so my physics BS detector is very sensitive). A lot of books called science fiction are really fantasy. It is kind of a shame that so much space opera and such, is classified as Sci-Fi, when it's really more or less fantasy.

I guess it's more of a question of personal definition, but I think I'd like sci-fi to be defined more by the hard sci-fi type books then space opera(Not that I don't enjoy space opera, but I can't in my mind bring myself to consider it in the least scientific). I'd really like for more realism to be injected into books, as I think fact is often more fascinating than fiction.

*Sigh* If only Asimov, Clark, Heinlein and the like hadn't all died off. There just hasn't really been anyone to fill their shoes(although I have to say that I'm really starting to like Scalzi, and perhaps he'll hop into the role). Ah well, I'll go crawl under my rock now.

Yup, I'd argue hard sf is almost dead. There's so much bad science in so-called "hard sf" I want to puke when I read it. Kind of like the goth kid in your class.

The problem is, in my opinion, that most ordinary people can't understand the novel concepts in science anymore. You basically have to present everything "as magic" or you lose their interest. Scientific details aren't accessible.

Now, you could invoke Clarke's rule here (sufficiently advanced tech = magic), but if you have unrealistic additions to the laws of physics as we understand them (such as magic), then you have straight fantasy. Sorry.

For example, one of my dirty little secrets is that I like to write about artificial intelligence. Unfortunately, I have a much deeper understanding of it than many writers/readers, and it's difficult to present my ideas/predictions without their eyes glazing over. They might have some vague guess at what a neural network is, but they don't have any clue what the hell a rational agent is, much less how the two concepts differ. That's where science-as-magic comes into play. Just point at the pretty black-box tech and merely state, "it does thing X and that's all you need to know".

I'm glad I've got a comrade in arms SPMiller

I really do fear the dumbing down of everything. I think engineers like myself and scientists need to get up off our asses and start writing hard sci-fi again. However, I don't think things need to be dumbed down so much, as guys like Asimov and Heinlein did a great job describing different science fiction stories, as have the guys like Gibson who got the cyberpunk ball rolling. They were immensely popular, but it's because at heart they were stories about PEOPLE.

To much of this stuff coming out now just feels like technological masturbation, for it's own sake. Science fiction at it's core was always, and should always be about people and societies. The science simply allows for the exploration of new environments and ideas. In fact I'll even go and say that scientific details aren't so important as long as the implications of the science are realistic.

In other words the exact way that an AI works may not be so important, as how it could possibly interact with people or other AI. Sure some detail is needed, but if you can truly create a being with the kind of impact of HAL from 2001, then I don't think the actual science is so important as long as it's at its root plausible and believable.

I'm going to have to say that I really like Scalzi. What I like so much is that while he doesn't get into to much technological depth, and it is at its heart a space opera(the old man's war trilogy), the ideas are right out of Heinlein. The politics and philosophical implications of the book more than counteract the fact that it's a bit loose on the science end. I can live with the fact that the physics aren't quite up to my level of accuracy, because the ideas are GOOD and thought provoking. I also have to hand it Scalzi, because his books are accessible to everyone, yet are not dumbed down to the point of where I would lobotomize myself.

To much of this stuff coming out now just feels like technological masturbation, for it's own sake. Science fiction at it's core was always, and should always be about people and societies. The science simply allows for the exploration of new environments and ideas. In fact I'll even go and say that scientific details aren't so important as long as the implications of the science are realistic.

In other words the exact way that an AI works may not be so important, as how it could possibly interact with people or other AI. Sure some detail is needed, but if you can truly create a being with the kind of impact of HAL from 2001, then I don't think the actual science is so important as long as it's at its root plausible and believable.

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I just can't quite be that lax in my definition. The science needs to play such an important role in the story that without it the plot would no longer work. If I were to provide a definition for sf, I'd say it's speculation on the impact of future technological development on society. Not necessarily a human society, mind you! Without the tech, the story doesn't exist, and if the tech can be cut while keeping the story intact, it should be.

Like, without HAL, there would no longer be conflict in 2001.

I apply the same rule to fantasy. If I can get rid of the magic and keep the story intact, goodbye magic!

General Scorch said:

Here's a quick overview of the story: Magic Vs. Technology. There's some gruesome torture (which almost made me consider horror as a genre because I made a gothic kid vomit in class). Also, there's a lot of fake (made-up) religion.

Now, given that, you might see my problem already. Does magic have a big role in the story? Yes. Does technology have a big role in the story? Of course. However, my english teacher refuses to let me write sci-fi/fantasy on my "query letter" that's due in a few days.

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Science fantasy? Urban fantasy? Steampunk? Not sure which best describes your story, but maybe one of those labels would work.

Why not just call it "Speculative Fiction"?

My take is somewhat different from previous comments, General S. I don't have enough to form a strong view, so I'd like to ask you some questions.

Would you say that the major themes are more about a) morality, psychology and society or b) new technologies & methods, frontiers and their consumers/explorers?

In resolving contested situations, would you say that the resolutions are a) mainly symbolic - there's a metaphysical reason for the resolution that may or may not be grounded in the physical; or b) mainly analytic, rational and physical - in working out the physical hows and whys, characters are able to resolve the situation?

If you're answering a) consistently then I'd suggest that it's probably fantasy - because regardless of premise and setting, all the recognised classics of fantasy seem to have these qualities. If you're answering b) consistently then I'd suggest that it's probably science fiction - because despite how far-fetched the magical premise might be, the concerns and resolution share qualities in common with the recognised classics of Sci Fi.

If you have a mix (e.g. more a) than b) on themes, but the reverse on resolutions) then it might be something else - perhaps science fantasy or some kind of magical realism. Or it might defy clear genre pegging. I'd need to know more about the story to form a clearer view.

Hope this might be useful.

I'd call it interstitial fiction. That's probably true (has aspects of multiple genres without properly fitting any genre) and also sounds pretentious enough* to make an english teacher who is anti sf/f happy

ETA: Though I'm also pro-Paichka's suggestion and Ruv's. Funny how that goes.


* The term could sound pretentious, I mean. To people who don't know what it is. The actual interstitial arts folks I know are wonderful well-grounded people without an ounce of pretention to go with their gallons of knowledge and overall coolness. And I don't just say this because I consider myself an interstitial kid...

General Scorch said:

Okay, so I just finished writing a novella for english class (started as a short story, but I just couldn't let the thing die), and I had a question concerning the Sci-Fi genre vs. the Fantasy genre.

Here's a quick overview of the story: Magic Vs. Technology. There's some gruesome torture (which almost made me consider horror as a genre because I made a gothic kid vomit in class). Also, there's a lot of fake (made-up) religion.

Now, given that, you might see my problem already. Does magic have a big role in the story? Yes. Does technology have a big role in the story? Of course. However, my english teacher refuses to let me write sci-fi/fantasy on my "query letter" that's due in a few days.

What would be the appropriate term to call this story? My english teacher is super strict and warned us that if we didn't label the story properly, he'd dock the grade by a lot. I asked him, but he refuses to tell me how to label it (I'm kind of doubting that he even knows).

If you want more details about the story, feel free to ask if you think it'll help you help me with this problem.

I was pretty sure that this was the proper place to put this thread, and I apologize if I made a mistake. I tend to do that a lot for some reason

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I think "Speculative Fiction" would cover it. Or you could call it "speculative fantasy."

I'd call it whatever gets the grade, probably fantasy.

I'm thirding (fourthing?) Speculative Fiction.

General Scorch said:

What would be the appropriate term to call this story? My english teacher is super strict and warned us that if we didn't label the story properly, he'd dock the grade by a lot. I asked him, but he refuses to tell me how to label it (I'm kind of doubting that he even knows).

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Your teacher sounds like an ass. Just thought I'd throw that out there. I really have no valuable input on this question

Why is he teaching English? Did he lose a bet?

I'd look past the magic vs tech idea. Instead consider, quoting Cory Doctorow and Karl Schroeder (The Complete Idiot's Guide to Publishing Science Fiction):

"Most science fiction is fundamentally materialistic, it's founded on the belief in the objectivity of the world. Fantasy, on the other hand, is usually idealistic: In fantasy, the inner world of the psyche is often more real that the physical world. Indeed, the physical world is little more that a cloudy mirror reflecting the soul."

an HONORS english teacher who hates reading? What kind of cut rate school do you go to? Who teaches the regular english classes, Kyrgyz immigrants? Even in my crappy school our honors english teachers were genuinely well read.

Someone needs to have a talk with the Superintendant.

General Scorch said:

Okay, all, thanks for the help. My teacher is a total jerk and refuses to let me use any "specific" terms like you've all said (speculative fiction, urban fantasy, intersistial fiction), so I'm just going to call it fantasy. Knowing my luck, he'll be a hard-core fantasy fan and say: "oh, science, you mislabeled this!" Ack.

Oh, and Sassee, ass does not even begin to describe my honors english teacher. He claims to hate reading with a passion.

ANYWAY, thanks for the input, it's all been very helpful. Scorch out.

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No specific terms? Just call it 'fiction' then.

sanctuary6284 said:

Why is he teaching English? Did he lose a bet?

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seriously, the guy sounds like a bum.

General Scorch said:

Okay, all, thanks for the help. My teacher is a total jerk and refuses to let me use any "specific" terms like you've all said (speculative fiction, urban fantasy, intersistial fiction), so I'm just going to call it fantasy. Knowing my luck, he'll be a hard-core fantasy fan and say: "oh, science, you mislabeled this!" Ack.

Oh, and Sassee, ass does not even begin to describe my honors english teacher. He claims to hate reading with a passion.

ANYWAY, thanks for the input, it's all been very helpful. Scorch out.

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My eye, it twitches.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, the OP is lucky to not be automatically failed for even mentioning speculative fiction in an English class.

They hate us.

Why not a science fiction fantasy hybrid story? Magic combine with technology can be very cool.

How about Techno Fantasy?