I decided to write in third person. But I have a problem.

BlueLucario · Apr 21, 2008

I just started writing in third person limited(And it was awesome.), but it feels like I'm writing in omniscient. I have a fight scene going on and I was reading this.

http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/art/scene.php

1.)I found it to be very helpful, however I found that there were too many "she's" in every other sentence. I always have to write like this.

Lily continued to dodge the attack. It went on for several minutes, until she landed onto a tree branch. She bent over and panted. Siren laughed, as flames burst out of her hands. She leaped forward. Lily's chest pounded as she watched Siren lunge at her. She stood there stunned. She couldn't evade any more attacks. Thinking fast, she only had one option left. She coiled her fist, and focused on Siren's forehead. With a swift jab to the forehead, she managed to stop her attack. The impact of Siren's fall made a large dent on the ground. She did not move. Lily had another idea, but she must act quickly, before Siren moves again. Her hands glowed and large spheres formed. Focusing on the trees surrounding Siren, she attacked with a flurry of her energy balls, hacking and slashing at them until they toppled over the unconscious woman. That was what Lily wanted. She turned around and ran as far and quick as she could until she stopped near a small tree stump and sat down.

I never use a pronoun to replace the subject "Siren" unless she is the only subject in a sentence.

2.)Again as I said, when I wrote this I feel like I'm writing in omniscient, which is extremely awkward.

Can you help me with these?

Sorry to bother you. I didn't mean to harass any of you.

JamieFord · Apr 21, 2008

If it feels omniscient you're not close enough with that 3rd person POV. Rewrite a few lines--but have everything coming from the POV of that main character. Nothing gets written that they don't see, hear, taste, think or feel. See if that doesn't feel less omni.

Also, if you don't have it, Orson Scott Card's Characters & Viewpoint is a great book if you're struggling with this kind of thing.

Gillhoughly · Apr 21, 2008

I had a problem writing in 3rd person, but reading work by writers who are very good at it fixed me up pretty quick.

Try anything by Lois McMaster Bujold. It's third person, but you're inside their skin, without the overuse of pronouns.

BlueLucario · Apr 21, 2008

Oh yeah! I heard about those senses and all that. I thought that I should leave them out unless it's important to the story.

Jeremy · Apr 21, 2008

Hmm…

I have similar problems with that also, but I found the best thing for me was to read books done in the POV I prefer writing in. Which is third person. The books I read that helped me in this area the most was the Wheel of Time series. Robert Jordan uses third person POV but he sticks with one character. He describes what they see, feel, and hear. By doing you that shouldn’t be getting the feeling of writing third person omniscient.

Also, when you read from authors the write in the POV you’re using you begin to get an ‘ear’ for how to write things in a way that ‘sounds’ good. That is what helped me eliminate the constant use of he/she.

I hope that makes sense.

loquax · Apr 21, 2008

Think of tight third as first person with the "He/She/Name" instead of "I". There's more to it than that, but it's a good start.

ChaosTitan · Apr 21, 2008

BlueLucario said:
Oh yeah! I heard about those senses and all that. I thought that I should leave them out unless it's important to the story.

They *are* important to the story. As humans, we use our five senses without thought, but those sensations are always there. In order to invest in your characters, your readers need to know what they are feeling, seeing, hearing, etc...

Not all the time, obviously. In the middle of a fight, you must pick and choose your details. If Lily is fighting in the forest, does she smell pine? Earth? A dead animal nearby? Can she hear birds bursting out of the trees when she hits the trunk? What does she smell when Siren unleashes fire? Sulphur or pansies?

Your sample is just a listing of events in the order they occur.

BlueLucario · Apr 21, 2008

ChaosTitan said:
They *are* important to the story. As humans, we use our five senses without thought, but those sensations are always there. In order to invest in your characters, your readers need to know what they are feeling, seeing, hearing, etc...

\.

Oh I thought they weren't. How often should I use the senses?

ToddWBush · Apr 21, 2008

BL, I'd also pick up The Last Coyote by Michael Connelly. Whole book is 3rd person, but very, very intimate. The MC is a cop by the name of Harry Bosch. If you like mysteries, read The Last Coyote, and aren't a Connelly fan, then your next post by me is free.

Linda Adams · Apr 21, 2008

My first impression is that it's not in omnscient (believe me, it's quite different, and I don't think you could accidentally write in it). Rather, I think the scene is missing the reactions and the details. It's just punch this, punch that, magic this, magic that. It's probably also why you have a lot of "she's" turning up.

For example:

She couldn't evade any more attacks. Thinking fast, she only had one option left.

You do this in two sentences. Try taking these two sentences and turning them into two pages. Not into more back and forth attacks, but have Lily get into trouble and react to the possibility she might die. Milk it. Make her desperate. Have her experience pain. Describe the magic slamming into a tree as she misses on her first attempt, which will make the reader think Lily is about to die. Get into her head and show us what she's going through, and give us the details.

ChaosTitan · Apr 21, 2008

BlueLucario said:
Oh I thought they weren't. How often should I use the senses?

Sorry, Blue, but there's no hard and fast rule for this. It's something that must be learned, both by reading and by writing.

Take five books off your bookshelf (nothing by Dan Brown or JK Rowling, no manga). Pick any chapter from each book. Take a piece of paper and write down every example of a sensory detail in those chapters. See how published authors use them, in what quantity, and why.

Dale Emery · Apr 22, 2008

BlueLucario said:
2.)Again as I said, when I wrote this I feel like I'm writing in omniscient, which is extremely awkward.

Your example shows a very nice control of third-person POV. It's not omniscient at all. Every word shows something that Lily is seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling.

There's another variable that you can consider when you're ready, and that is distance, which is about closely we are zoomed into character's POV. Your example seems to be a medium distance. For example, we are told that Lily has an idea, but we don't know what the idea is.

Writing from a more distant third-person POV, you'd show even less about what is going on in Lily's head, but still show only those events that she is able to observe.

Writing from a closer third-person POV, you'd show even more of Lily's thoughts -- more of her immediate internal reactions to what is going on around her, more of the options she considers as she makes her decisions, more of what she's seeing, hearing, smelling, feeling, and tasting.

So distance is another variable you can play with.

Your example shows a nicely controlled medium-distance third-person POV.

Dale

JJ Cooper · Apr 22, 2008

ToddWBush said:
BL, I'd also pick up The Last Coyote by Michael Connelly. Whole book is 3rd person, but very, very intimate. The MC is a cop by the name of Harry Bosch. If you like mysteries, read The Last Coyote, and aren't a Connelly fan, then your next post by me is free.

Yep, reading Echo Park at the moment. Another good close third person POV. Man I got annoyed at the Bosch ones that went to first person POV. If you're writing thrillers or crime fiction, Michael Connelly books will show you how.

JJ

BlueLucario · Apr 22, 2008

ChaosTitan said:
Sorry, Blue, but there's no hard and fast rule for this. It's something that must be learned, both by reading and by writing.

Take five books off your bookshelf (nothing by Dan Brown or JK Rowling, no manga). Pick any chapter from each book. Take a piece of paper and write down every example of a sensory detail in those chapters. See how published authors use them, in what quantity, and why.

Oh that's easy, I was just reading Robert Ludlum's book.

I only use manga for idea sucking.

BlueLucario · Apr 22, 2008

Linda Adams said:
Linda Adams said:

My first impression is that it's not in omnscient (believe me, it's quite different, and I don't think you could accidentally write in it). Rather, I think the scene is missing the reactions and the details. It's just punch this, punch that, magic this, magic that. It's probably also why you have a lot of "she's" turning up.

Click to expand...

What do you think this could be in?

For example:

She couldn't evade any more attacks. Thinking fast, she only had one option left.

You do this in two sentences. Try taking these two sentences and turning them into two pages. Not into more back and forth attacks, but have Lily get into trouble and react to the possibility she might die. Milk it. Make her desperate. Have her experience pain. Describe the magic slamming into a tree as she misses on her first attempt, which will make the reader think Lily is about to die. Get into her head and show us what she's going through, and give us the details

Click to expand...

.

I think I may have one of those. I may not know exactly what she's thinking. Most of the fight scene is when Lily is at a disadvantage, and if it continues on for too long, the readers will think that she sucks. I was thinking of having Siren blast her at a long distance, having her fall into the water, where the tables turn.

Phaeal · Apr 22, 2008

The difficulty I have with the passage isn't the POV but an overall flatness and a vagueness of detail or word choice.

The flatness comes from that distance kept from Lily, the POV character. We get one statement that her chest pounds, another that she's stunned. Otherwise no hint of her emotions, her sensory perceptions beyond sight, and the crazy fragments of thought that could be flying through her head as she faces death, or at least serious singeing. This isn't incorrect. It may be ineffective.

As for the vagueness. Lily lands on a tree branch. What does that mean? Has she collapsed onto a branch fallen to the ground? Has she stumbled against a low-hanging branch? Has she jumped up into a tree? I get no clear picture of the situation.

Siren falls and makes a dent in the ground. Wow, how big is this Siren? Or how soft is the ground? Dent-making isn't all that easy outside of cartoons.

Slightly off or ineffective word choices: Lily's chest pounds. In humans, anyhow, a heart can pound in a chest, blood can pound in the ears, but a chest pounding? Siren lunges, but it takes several sentences for her to reach Lily. A charge might be protracted that long. A lunge is a single, swift motion. Lily coils her fist -- you might conceivable coil your fingers into a fist, if your fingers were snakily long, but a fist doesn't coil. Lily makes "large" spheres, sits on a "small" stump. I find these wasted adjectives, lacking in color. "Large/big" and "small/little" often are.

Paragraphing much more frequently would also help. Short paragraphs give action scenes a swift, staccato rhythm -- long paragraphs slow them down.

Browne and King of the much-recommended Self-Editing for Fiction Writers call the cure for such things sophistication. It's a good word, and a good thing which, like many good things, takes time and effort to achieve. When you read to learn how to write, read first for the story, then go back and reread, stopping to figure out why each paragraph works, why each sentence, why each word or mark of punctuation.

maestrowork · Apr 22, 2008

It is not easy for a writer to limit his or her storytelling to one point of view. It's not natural for a storyteller because we know the whole story! We know that when John is not looking, Mary is stalking him. We know how every character thinks and is about to act. 3rd person is even harder because it's neither as close as 1st person (in that case you just write what "you," the narrator, know) but close enough that you can't report on everything and everyone. So it takes a lot of discipline to do it right.

maestrowork · Apr 22, 2008

BlueLucario said:
Oh that's easy, I was just reading Robert Ludlum's book.

I only use manga for idea sucking.

Manga or graphic novels in general are all omniscient, like movies. I don't remember if Ludlum wrote in omniscient or 3rd limited. The fact is, if you want to learn about 3rd limited, you need to read 3rd limited. Pick one and read -- don't just rely on only books you want to read (Manga, for example).

hammerklavier · Apr 22, 2008

There are many different ways to write action (or fight) scenes. Since it looks like your writings will have plenty of fights, you should learn some of the other ways so you can 'mix things up' and help keep interest.

I'll list a few of the ways here along with a few obvious pros & cons, I'm not going to use terms like omniscient because these all can be done in most any of the first, second, or third person writing styles:

1) give the reader the whole picture of the action as it happens (for first person this could normally only be done if the person was watching instead of participating).

pro: completeness
con: can give too much information which slows the action down, so try to keep a good rythym going

2) give the reader the view of a single participant in the action as it happens

pro: immediacy, the reader can feel connected if done well
con: you can only show what that person experiences (which could be a pro as well)

3) via commentator - like the Quidditch matches in Harry Potter, or the battle for Archenland in The Horse and His Boy, someone explains what is going on as it happens

pro: you get to add commentary ("What does he think he's doing? Get out of there!")
con: removes the reader from the immediate action (but you don't lose the suspense if it's well written)

4) by reporter - the action is described in a book, news article, or on TV, or during an interview.

pro: you can mix certain facts in which wouldn't otherwise be known by your characters
con: the reader is now very removed from the action

5) storytelling - a character who participated in or witnessed the action now relates it back to characters who may or may not have witnessed the action (Mike showed up on my doorstep dirty and bloodied. "What happened to you?")

pro: now you can really get into certain aspects of what happened while glossing over others, you can also show what the character was feeling in their own words which might be more enlightening, especially if they are the sort to embelish
con: this definately can remove any suspense (we know they made it out ok) but it can be a good way to show a defeat: everyone sitting around blaming each other can be more interesting than describing it while it happens

6) by forensics - most famously used by Tolkien in chapter 5 of The Two Towers, someone figures out what happened by reading the remains of the battle.

pro: you get to ask a lot of questions and make wrong assumptions and wonder if the good character survived or was taken prisoner
con: can be confusing and distant

BlueLucario · Apr 22, 2008

Phaeal said:
The difficulty I have with the passage isn't the POV but an overall flatness and a vagueness of detail or word choice.

The flatness comes from that distance kept from Lily, the POV character. We get one statement that her chest pounds, another that she's stunned. Otherwise no hint of her emotions, her sensory perceptions beyond sight, and the crazy fragments of thought that could be flying through her head as she faces death, or at least serious singeing. This isn't incorrect. It may be ineffective.

Click to expand...

Yeah, You're right. I'm not that great with storytelling. Shouldn't it be obvious to the reader that she was afraid?

As for the vagueness. Lily lands on a tree branch. What does that mean? Has she collapsed onto a branch fallen to the ground? Has she stumbled against a low-hanging branch? Has she jumped up into a tree? I get no clear picture of the situation.

Click to expand...

Again, thought it was already obvious.

Siren falls and makes a dent in the ground. Wow, how big is this Siren? Or how soft is the ground? Dent-making isn't all that easy outside of cartoons.

Click to expand...

Hehe, I wanted to add a little special effects. I guess embellishment was a bad idea.

Slightly off or ineffective word choices: Lily's chest pounds. In humans, anyhow, a heart can pound in a chest, blood can pound in the ears, but a chest pounding? Siren lunges, but it takes several sentences for her to reach Lily. A charge might be protracted that long. A lunge is a single, swift motion. Lily coils her fist -- you might conceivable coil your fingers into a fist, if your fingers were snakily long, but a fist doesn't coil. Lily makes "large" spheres, sits on a "small" stump. I find these wasted adjectives, lacking in color. "Large/big" and "small/little" often are.

Click to expand...

Can you guys help me with those?

Paragraphing much more frequently would also help. Short paragraphs give action scenes a swift, staccato rhythm -- long paragraphs slow them down.
.

Sorry guys, although I'm still reading, I'm not very good at this. I wanted to see if I could add some "edge of your seat action". Just like I tried to do when I followed that procedure above. I followed Ludlum's style, he's a genius at suspense.

Do you know any action verbs or anything like that?

James81 · Apr 22, 2008

You know, a lot of these questions you tend to ask us can be answered by writing something completely through to finish and THEN going back and re-reading it and asking the questions.

This is why I think entering the NaNoWriMo will be good for you.

Marian Perera · Apr 22, 2008

James81 said:
You know, a lot of these questions you tend to ask us can be answered by writing something completely through to finish

We've been advising Blue to do that for some time now.

BlueLucario · Apr 22, 2008

Okay, now I think I get this. THe only thing I need to know is the verb word choices.

James81 · Apr 22, 2008

BlueLucario said:
Okay, now I think I get this. THe only thing I need to know is the verb word choices.

What do you mean by "verb word choices"?

You mean how to construct the verb to be in sync with third person? Or how to choose words in general?

The first one is easy, and doesn't depend on first person or third person at all.

The second one, well, if you have trouble with that you are either:

1. Overthinking it

or

2. Not cut out for writing

I would assert it's mostly number 1. Why don't you take a little "break" from your current projects and just devote, say, one month to writing without thinking. Sit down, like you would in a NaNoWriMo, and just WRITE! Forget about how it sounds. Forget about being published. Forget about all the little details that you swirl about in your head and just set pen to page (or fingers to keyboard) and let whatever is backed up inside of you to flow out--complete with all the typos and mistakes that you don't catch on the first draft.

Sarpedon · Apr 22, 2008

Do you know any action verbs or anything like that?

Action verbs? aren't most verbs for actions?

Or do you mean words used to describe action sequences, like

Hit, strike, stab, slash, bludgeon, slice, kick, bite, elbow, pummel, suggilate, slug, strangle, club, maul, pierce, throw, hurl, stomp, tear, twist, pin, cut, rip,

I decided to write in third person. But I have a problem.

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