STUPID QUESTION?

pilot27407 · Apr 21, 2008

OK, let’s try this for a topic.
I know what a good novel is supposed to be like.
A good plot, fresh as possible, that hooks you from the start and keeps you reading.
Expressive characters that come to life, not over and definitely not under developed.
A strong, expressive, dialog, which used the ‘proper’ language for the setting (if it’s set in 14th century Russia, don’t use ‘make tracks dude’ or ‘give me five man’).
A constant flow of the story, with no ‘holes’ to confuse the reader.
Good wordsmithing without becoming too pretentious.
And, keep it under 100,000 words (in consideration for the publisher’s expenses).
I also know what you’re not supposed to do.
Don’t just babble around for page after page of meaningless narration.
Don’t tire the reader with lengthy descriptions, historical data, senseless ‘chatter’ or confusing issues.
Did I forget anything?
I’m sure I did. So, feel free to fill in.
Now, let’s get to the point of this thread.
I’m, what you may call, an over-writer. I tend to do exactly what I’m not supposed to.
I get into lengthy and strenuous narration, which doesn’t help the story an iota. I’ll ramble aimlessly around, throw in hundreds of words worth of historical information (like the reader is stupid and doesn’t know who Saddam is), and end up with 140,000 words novel.
I try for a concise story and end up with a drawn out one. I say to myself, don’t worry, I’ll trim it down when I’ll edit, but don’t have the heart to delete my own ‘babies’.
Anyone cares to jump in and offer suggestions?
How do you achieve the perfect blend? How do you streamline the story?

For those, who want to see what I’m talking about, please go to Share Your Work, Mystery/Thriller/Suspense and look up ONE HUNDRED HOURS.

Will Lavender · Apr 21, 2008

I read a lot of novels and pay attention to how other writers do it.

Calla Lily · Apr 21, 2008

pilot, I skimmed your excerpt in SYW, and I see what you mean.

Here's the bad news: You have to learn to kill your darlings.

Here's the good news: Killing your darlings 99% of the time improves the book.

It takes time and study and help from other critiquers. But in the end, you must learn to edit yourself. It can be done!

pilot27407 · Apr 21, 2008

I also read a lot, thousands of books so far. And I can see where another author is loosing me with senseless narration. I guess it’s easy to see some one else’s faults but hard to accept your own.
Would I be asking too much, Lily, for you to go back and show me with a red pen. I’m a great, by example, learner.

jennontheisland · Apr 21, 2008

It is tough to see your own mistakes.

My CP would point my errors out to me and I'd still make them. It wasn't until I found myself catching the same errors in her work that I was able to avoid them in mine. Critiquing other people's work can be a great learning tool.

CaroGirl · Apr 21, 2008

For information about killing your darlings, see Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott.

If a scene doesn't work, take it out. Why wouldn't you? Recognizing what doesn't work in your own writing takes time, experience and perspective, but it's a skill all writers need to develop.

icerose · Apr 21, 2008

Enlist help. Get an outside person to do a page or two for you, killing the excess. Then rewrite it in a separate document, taking out everything they said to take out.

Then let it sit, for a good week or two.

Come back with a fresh perspective and read the revised one first. Then read the original. It is painful, it is a slow process, but it can help you see what is necessary and what is actually hurting your story.

Make sure that person is compatible, helpful, and fits your needs.

Good luck.

ETA. I'm kind of the oposite, I tend to streamline my first drafts and usally end up falling short and have to add more subplots.

Calla Lily · Apr 21, 2008

pilot27407 said:
Would I be asking too much, Lily, for you to go back and show me with a red pen. I’m a great, by example, learner.

I'll get to it by tomorrow.

pilot27407 · Apr 21, 2008

Let’s get together icerose and write the perfect book… LOL

pilot27407 · Apr 21, 2008

THANKS Lily.

Mr Flibble · Apr 21, 2008

you need to trim 40k? Pfft.

Seriously, I had to almost halve my MS because I got carried away. Start off with each chapter. Is it essential to the story, or the readers understanding of it? Then each scene, each paragraph, down to each sentence.

If you take that bit of history lesson out, will your reader still understand what is going on? Chuck it.

Is there a way of saying the same thing in less words? Rephrase. Do you have my personal tic of saying the same thing twice in two different ways? Take the least powerful one out.

If you have one scene that shows character development and another that develops the plot, can you combine them? Can two minor characters be merged?

Killing your darlings is painful to start with. Save them to a seperate file is you like, and tell yourself you can use that awesome phrasing / evocative description in another WIP. The benefit is...it will make your book better. Which is payment for the mangled mess it made of my brain.

Bubastes · Apr 21, 2008

I am also an over-writer. You've already received the correct advice: kill your darlings. It WILL make your manuscript better, and once you do it, you'll wonder what took you so long. My final drafts run about 25% shorter than my first drafts. Shoot for 10% cuts on the first pass, then keep on going.

By the way, cutting and revising is my favorite part of the writing process. I think of it as liposuction for my manuscript. Sucking the fat out of my writing turns it from flabby to faaaaaaaabulous.

pilot27407 · Apr 21, 2008

So, Meow, if you like cutting, please try... you'll find the first chapter on Share Your Work. I would really appreciate it... Thanks

JoNightshade · Apr 21, 2008

Write what you want. Do the full 140K. Then save it. Put it on CD or print it out or whatever.

Now copy your document and name it something else. "Draft 2" or whatever.

Go through Draft 2 and CUT EVERYTHING you possibly can. Don't worry about losing it, because if it needs to go back you always have your earlier draft.

See? You don't actually have to kill your darlings. Just put them in a little keepsake box.

maestrowork · Apr 21, 2008

Write what you want.

Then during rewrite, read it as if someone else wrote it, and trim and cut and prune and kill like a motherf-----. Seriously, kill your babies. And if you're not sure exactly, enlist some good betas who will tell you what sucks.

Bubastes · Apr 21, 2008

Side note to pilot: you may want to make the font bigger on your posts here at AW.

pilot27407 · Apr 21, 2008

I can do that, no problem, with someone else’s work, harder with mine. For you see, I know the full story and it seams to me that everything has (and here we go) ‘more or less’ something to do with what happens later on in the plot. Naturally, and I know that, the reader, by the time he gets there, already forgot that passage.
That’s why, I’m asking you all to go to that first chapter and show me what you’ll scrap.
I learn much better, and faster, from example.

Most of you’re saying ‘write everything and trim later’, but a few advocate the different approach, ‘sketch out the plot and fill the holes later’. What’s more efficient?

KTC · Apr 21, 2008

I edited a SciFi novel last fall. It was 170,000 words long when it was handed to me. I used a sword to kill the writer's darlings. Having said that, it was extremely easy to kill those darlings. Not so easy to kill my own. It is hard to step outside your work and see it with an editor's eye. Have you let it settle for a while. I like to put mine in a 'drawer' for about 6 months or so, if I'm able, before taking out the 'red pen'.

And I think it may be better to ask 1 person to help you first. Otherwise, you may get a crapload of advice all different that you will have a hard time following all at once. Find a beta or a critique partner.

JimmyB27 · Apr 21, 2008

JoNightshade said:
Write what you want. Do the full 140K. Then save it. Put it on CD or print it out or whatever.

Now copy your document and name it something else. "Draft 2" or whatever.

Go through Draft 2 and CUT EVERYTHING you possibly can. Don't worry about losing it, because if it needs to go back you always have your earlier draft.

See? You don't actually have to kill your darlings. Just put them in a little keepsake box.

This is what I was going to say. You never know, you may find your darlings a new home in a later WiP.

pilot27407 · Apr 21, 2008

I’ve been trying Meow,… but, for whatever reason, when I hit ‘post’, it jumps into this small, hard to read, font…. Drives me nuts too.

pilot27407 · Apr 21, 2008

And where and how do I find a beta or critique partner KTC?
Do I hear any offers?

Bubastes · Apr 21, 2008

pilot27407 said:
Most of you’re saying ‘write everything and trim later’, but a few advocate the different approach, ‘sketch out the plot and fill the holes later’. What’s more efficient?

I'm not sure which is more efficient, but here's something I've found: even though I trim the words, they're still "there" in the story, like an iceberg. It's almost as if the act of writing those words adds depth to the story even though I eventually take them out. Does that make any sense?

JamieFord · Apr 21, 2008

Just skimmed it as well.

It's not just a "kill your babies" situation. Take a deep breath and step away from it. Then go back and try and write one scene (it can be a small one) from one characters tight POV. Restrict the amount you put on the page to only what that character knows. Don't let that chatty narrator person take over. See if you can make one scene work in a minimal way. If you can't, pull the narration out a little wider, but don't start so wide and drill down because you end up backfilling along the way and that sloooooowwws down the narration.

Or, if that seems like too much work, go read a couple of Hemingway's short stories. Especially the ones which are minimal--where the gist of the story comes through in dialog and in very subtle narration.

Just a few thoughts.

pilot27407 · Apr 21, 2008

I’m following you Meow, because the story is ours, in our heads, and will stay there regardless of the words we take out. But, could the reader still understand our full message if we delete 20% of the words which make up the story?

JeanneTGC · Apr 21, 2008

pilot27407 said:
I’m following you Meow, because the story is ours, in our heads, and will stay there regardless of the words we take out. But, could the reader still understand our full message if we delete 20% of the words which make up the story?

In most cases of bloat, yes.

I just cut 20K words out of my fantasy novel. It was hell, mostly because I had to edit over and over again, because I'd catch some stuff first time, but miss others, go back, catch some still miss others, etc.

It was worth it, however. And you know what? I can guarantee no one will miss those 20K words, myself included. They didn't do what I thought they did originally -- move the story forward, expand character development, add depth. They merely turned a good story into a snoozefest. And, amazingly enough, the last beta who read it, who had never seen the story in any form at all other than this final, had no issues with comprehending what was going on.

BTW, in answer to one of your questions earlier, where you asked what was more efficient -- write it and then cut, or, essentially, outline -- the answer is "whatever works best for you". Everyone's different. What works well for one doesn't necessarily guarantee success for another. The beauty is that we can just keep on doing it until we get it right.

STUPID QUESTION?

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