Hyphens, right or wrong?

ACEnders · Apr 21, 2008

Unfortunately, I can't find the blog now. However, I read a blog recently that claimed hyphens are no good in novel writing.

The blog stated that it makes you seem like an ametour because with the hyphens, you're stating something you should probably have already told the reader, so it's like you forgot to mention something.

I don't use hyphens a lot, but sometimes I do. When I use them, it's because that's how the character's mind is working at the time.

Example:

A few of the worse ones – one on each thigh and a couple on her upper arms – were still black and blue and looked even worse than when they’d first been inflicted.

Okay, I changed that to this:

A few bruises on her arms and legs were still black and blue and looked worse than when they’d first been inflicted, but at least their position made them easy to hide. The cuts, also, were healing.

I guess I get it. Unless the hyphens demonstrate how the character's mind is working, they aren't really needed. Especially in first person, hyphens are sometimes added to stress the POV character's humor or thought process.

But what do you guys think? Do you agree that hyphens are ametourish?

dawinsor · Apr 21, 2008

What you're talking about is dashes, M-dashes to be specific. Maybe someone can give you a more authoritative answer than I can, but I sometimes use them. I write a very close third person, and sometimes my POV character thinks of things as he goes along and adds them via dashes.

CaroGirl · Apr 21, 2008

I've never heard that using em-dashes in fiction is in any way amateurish. I've seen it done many times in published novels - and have done it myself.

Anything that's OVERdone looks amateur.

ReneC · Apr 21, 2008

I don't see anything wrong with dashes if they are used correctly. I think your example is a good demonstration of the proper usage. They are stronger than a comma, denoting a more significant deviation from the rest of the sentence but still relevant.

Don't believe everything you read in a blog, even if it's an agent's blog. I can see the point of cautioning a writer about using dashes, there are too many examples of poor usage where it really does seem like the writer just threw them in there to fill a gap, but I wouldn't say it's good practice to avoid them entirely. They are effective and quite proper when used correctly.

mikeland · Apr 21, 2008

I personally like dashes in moderation. But I also like adverbs and split infinitives and various other things that are frowned upon.

I've never heard the argument made in the blog.

The "amateur" label gets slapped on a lot of things. I tend to ignore it and use whatever feels right.

Will Lavender · Apr 21, 2008

I disagree with the blog. Dashes are sometimes necessary and useful punctuation marks.

I wouldn't believe anyone who says that you should "never" use something (or in this case, it's the phrase "no good"). The word "never" is useless in a discussion about novels.

ReneC · Apr 21, 2008

Will Lavender said:
I wouldn't believe anyone who says that you should "never" use something (or in this case, it's the phrase "no good"). The word "never" is useless in a discussion about novels.

Great point, Will.

Will Lavender · Apr 21, 2008

mikeland said:
I've never heard the argument made in the blog.

Never have I.

I think the main thing is to be consistent. A writer like Lee Child, to use an example from my genre, wouldn't use dashes because his prose is antithetical to that kind of outside narration. But there are other writers who can ramble around and use serpentine modes of writing who do that very well.

I had a teacher in my MFA program say that you shouldn't do a thing only once. If you use one set of parentheses in a novel, for example, that becomes a sign for the reader (i.e., "PAY ATTENTION HERE") and is potentially distracting. Same with one dash, one semicolon, etc. And of course you can overuse anything; a dash every paragraph is obviously excessive. But if your style fits the mark, and if you're using them with some regularity through a piece, then I don't see a problem with it.

Claudia Gray · Apr 21, 2008

ITA that dash use is a style choice that can work for you or not. My books so far have all been in first-person, and I find dashes useful there to create the slightly irregular rhythms of my narrator's natural thought and speech. But other styles of writing might demand less usage. There's no one right or wrong way.

ACEnders · Apr 21, 2008

I wish I could find that blog, but I remember reading it and thinking it seemed very strange to me. If I find it, I'll post it. But it's good to know that I'm not alone in using the dashes or appreciating them in other works.

ToddWBush · Apr 21, 2008

Using your examples...

A few of the worse ones – one on each thigh and a couple on her upper arms – were still black and blue and looked even worse than when they’d first been inflicted.

I think this is MUCH better sounding than....

A few bruises on her arms and legs were still black and blue and looked worse than when they’d first been inflicted, but at least their position made them easy to hide. The cuts, also, were healing.

But that's just my opinion.

Charlie Horse · Apr 21, 2008

Maybe you were confused and they were talking about hypens, which in a manuscript should not be used - at least not that I'm aware of.

Claudia Gray · Apr 21, 2008

Charlie Horse said:
Maybe you were confused and they were talking about hypens, which in a manuscript should not be used - at least not that I'm aware of.

Why wouldn't you use hyphens in a manuscript? If you're writing about the well-dressed man, you can say well-dressed.

(Different stylebooks have different rules about hyphens, but so far as I know there is no stylebook that forbids all uses of the hyphen.)

thequotegal · Apr 21, 2008

I agree with ClaudiaGray...I write first person and appreciate the flexibility I can get from em dashes. They are probably my favorite punctuation mark, but I use them sparingly.

IceCreamEmpress · Apr 21, 2008

ClaudiaGray said:
Why wouldn't you use hyphens in a manuscript? If you're writing about the well-dressed man, you can say well-dressed.

(Different stylebooks have different rules about hyphens, but so far as I know there is no stylebook that forbids all uses of the hyphen.)

Maybe Charlie meant that you shouldn't use a hyphen to break up words that are typo-
graphically too long for a line, the way we did back in the days of type-
writers.

And they'll pry my em-dashes--to paraphrase Charlton Heston--from my cold, dead hands.

ToddWBush · Apr 21, 2008

IceCreamEmpress said:
And they'll pry my em-dashes--to paraphrase Charlton Heston--from my cold, dead hands.

Nice reference. I miss the guy already.

Charlie Horse · Apr 21, 2008

IceCreamEmpress said:
Maybe Charlie meant that you shouldn't use a hyphen to break up words that are typo-
graphically too long for a line, the way we did back in the days of type-
writers.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Turn the hyphenation feature off on your word processing software.

By all means use them when appropriate, especially if you're a clean-cut mother-in-law running for re-election.

dawinsor · Apr 21, 2008

I had another thought. I used to teach writing to college students and a sizeable number of them used dashes because they didn't know proper punctuation. Maybe that's what ACEnders read about.

ACEnders · Apr 21, 2008

dawinsor said:
I had another thought. I used to teach writing to college students and a sizeable number of them used dashes because they didn't know proper punctuation. Maybe that's what ACEnders read about.

Hmmm, perhaps. And that makes sense. But I don't think that's what the blog meant. The blog was talking about how dashes are often used when someone forgot to mention something earlier. She said that ametour writer's throw in dashes with information that the reader should have already had.

I'd like to think that I do pretty well with grammar and puncuation. I had some pretty rough English teachers in high school, but I'm so thankful to them now!

Charlie Horse · Apr 21, 2008

Well, all I know is that after working in book typesetting for over 12 years, I saw lots of writers use them. When I started writing, I found out why. Just pay attention when you read and you'll see how commonplace they are. Like someone mentioned before, they create a certain rhythm when used properly.

icerose · Apr 21, 2008

I've seen a lot of pro-writers use them. Geeze, that sounds like pro-life doesn't it? Anyway I've seen them used. In scripts, they use it to amp up the suspense by dropping off mid action/mid sentence.

ORION · Apr 21, 2008

I used both hyphens and M-dashes in LOTTERY.
And ellipses and italics..........
my bad

Stijn Hommes · Apr 21, 2008

Some people tend to string together fragments with commas when they really can't be. Dashes have their place - just don't overuse them.

Hyphens, right or wrong?

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