The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Re: "Donna Brown"

Hi, Chris,

You clearly have a point here: PA seems to have a bad reputation, which is bound to reflect sometimes and in some ways on its authors. I think they need to work on their public relations problem. Perhaps PA is like Jimmy Carter--who was an outstanding man with wonderful values but not terribly good at politics.

Good luck with your PA book.

Donna

Re: That is just so sad...

Clearly, PA could do a better job of telling potential writers what they will and won't do for them. But by looking closely at their web site, can't the average person figure it out?

No, because the average person has no experience with the publishing business and knows too little about that business to evaluate PA's claims or its contract.

The average person doesn't read critically, either, and won't look at "retail sales...brick-and-mortar bookstores" and think "Hmm, that could be literally true even if all they do is..."

Typically, the person with an unpublished book manuscript makes judgments biased by hope.

By "average," do you mean to refer to mental ability? If we take writing ability as a rough index of intelligence and compare the pro-PA posts and anti-PA posts on PA's board or here, I believe we'll conclude that smarter people eventually turn against PA and the less smart continue to defend PA.

Re: OMG, this poor delusion

The first thing a person with the least bit of common sense would do would be to google PA. There's nothing but negative information.

Click to expand...

That's a recent occurrence. If you look back at the thread, you see that people googling publishamerica didn't find negative info until the second page of hits.

Donna, all your questions are answered in this thread.

Re: Gee...double ban...I'll get two t-shirts

"In that respect, PA certainly seems to be like a vanity press--they don't do much editing."

They don't do ANY editing, Donna. They simply do the book formatting. However, if one were to look at their website, they bellowed from on high how they do "line by line" editing. That is an outright lie. Only through the valiant efforts of this website has PA edited that bit of tripe. Go AW!

They claim to be a traditional publisher. Another lie. Traditional publishers have a marketing department that works toward the good of the author, not self promotion. They have a return policy, send books out for reviews with legitimate reviewers. And, oh yes, they have real editors who do developmental and copy editing.

The reason people are up in arms is because not everyone signed with them to simply let Aunt Bertha have a copy for Christmas. Many did years of research or spent years perfecting themselves because they were serious about their craft. If PA simply came clean and said, "Hey, we're here for those of you that don't really care about getting your work out into the world, we're for you." At lease it would be honest and no one could complain.

Instead they lie through their teeth and fleece as many as they can by stating that they're just like Random House, etc. Puhleeze, Random House? What a joke. They have that confused with Scamdom House. PA's marketing consists of the author buying their own copies at pathetic discounts. I hardly think Random House has the same parameters.

Yes, you do see big time authors doing signings, but you know what? Their publisher got those signings for them. They didn't have to beg the events manager for a signing only to be laughed out of the store because their pathetic little publisher doesn't have a return policy for their overpriced books.

Bitter? You bet. I can take a lot of things in life, but I hate nothing more than a liar. And Publish America has a weak foundation based on smoke and mirrors. Their lies are the glue.

Re: OMG, this poor delusion

That's very interesting. I have honestly never seen an author by a major publisher peddling ANY books. In fact, I know of a great many authors whose contracts say they aren't allowed to peddle their own books.

Now, I have seen authors promoting their books. At a conference I sometimes speak at, the conference buys all the speakers' books and then sells them at the conference and speakers are often asked to have a signing. But the authors never touch the money -- it's not their job.

I've seen authors promoting books in bookstores but again, the stores buy the books and sell the books -- the author just signs. (Though, I'll admit, I did know an author once who sold out all the books the store had bought and the store owner approached the author, hoping she had some of her own books. Since the author wasn't allowed to sell books she had bought because of her contract, she "swapped" them with the bookstore and the bookstore ordered enough books to "reinburse" the author by giving her the books back. NO money changed hands.)

I have a friend who is an author. She is EXTREMELY shy and doesn't like public appearances of any kind. She wrote a few articles but that was the sum total of her personal efforts in promotion. The sale of her first book exceeded the PA best sellers. So...an author with a normal publisher matched PA best sellers by DOING NOTHING and spending nothing. How could that happen? Because real publishers handle the selling of the books. Authors with real publishers really are only ever asked to build buzz and you don't usually do that by peddling books like girl scout cookies.

Most of the disappointed PA authors I have met NEVER expected to be a best seller. In fact, they had expectations well well below what would be consider a failure in traditional terms with most houses. They hoped to sell a couple thousand books, do a few signings, promote and tell people where to get their books locally, and work on their next book -- they just expected to be published. They dreamed of one day stumbling across their book in a store, running their finger over its spine, and thinking, "Wow." Such modest expectations and they couldn't even get that.

gran

Re: Gee...double ban...I'll get two t-shirts

Donna Brown wrote:

<blockquote>On the other hand, people who don't know "its" from "it's" may still have something to say. I think it's rather nice and democratic that they now have a forum for saying it, without paying vanity prices for the privilege. </blockquote>

There's no question that they have something to say. None at all. The point is that <em>Publish America isn't doing their job, a job they claim to do</em>. And if people simply want to have their book in print, then why pay the Publish America premium? They can have their book printed directly by Lightening Source, the same printer P.A. and most other POD houses use. Or, they can go to their local small POD printer, and have a few copies printed on exactly the same equipment.

<blockquote>These are people who will never be published by a traditional house, so nobody else is going to give their work a good edit, either.</blockquote>

That may be true, but not because the authors can't distinguish it's from its, or spell or have creative approaches to subject-verb agreement; if that were the case, neither Fitzgerald or Delany would have been published, nor would Anne Rice. That's why not just anyone can be a successful acquisition editor.

<blockquote>As an author, I figure it's my business, not my publisher's, to make sure my work is readable and grammatically correct. If it's not, no traditional publisher (be it a magazine or book publisher) is likely to bother with it.
</blockquote>

Would that that were the case; unfortunately, it isn't. People do mistake it's and its, people do commit infelicities of syntax and grammar (all of us miss the details of our own text) and play fast and loose with usage; that's why genuine, professional publishers use production editors, line editors, copy editors and proofers. Trust me, even academic authors writing usage and grammar text books need editors.

P.A. doesn't seem to do much more editing than a cursory pass in digital form; I very much doubt they print hard copy for editing, or proofing (which real editors insist on), and the "galleys" are PDF--incorrectly produced PDFs, by the way, lacking all metadata and work flow data. Their editors don't even follow the standard conventions for proofing and copyediting. They're charging a premium price for a lower grade product, and passing the expense on to their authors; that's not what real publishers do. Real publishers sell books. They sell them to libraries, and bookstores. They don't make their authors do the selling. Real publishers pay advances and royalties, for books that have been properly edited and typeset. Frankly, I don't see anything P.A. does that authors couldn't do for themselves--and yes, that includes obtaining an ISBN and being listed at Ingrams and at Amazon--and authors could do it for less money, and retain all their rights.

For authors who truly don't need an editor, who truly know that their buyers will be willing to pay a premium price, who don't expect to see their books on the shelves of bookstores, P.A. might well make sense--but that isn't the market P.A. is reaching for, nor the way they present themselves.

Nothing delusional from this corner.

I googled PA 8 months ago and it took less than a minute to find plenty of negative information. I don't actually think there was anything but negative information, in fact. So how recent is recent, in your opinion?

But I would venture to say that this very day there are writers finding PA's site and it never crosses their pretty little heads to check and see if they are what they say they are.

Poor silly fools. I have very little sympathy for them. Maybe for someone who got bamboozled by PA way back when, before the negative press started, but not for the ones who aren't smart enough to watch out for themselves after such time. Jeez. And there are so many people doing it, still doing it.

Writers who go into this business without learning at least the basics of it's nature are no different from any other novice going into any other kind of business. "Hey! I think I'll open a golf course, just put some holes in a big green field, how hard could that be?":hat

Re: Nothing delusional from this corner.

PA can be very convincing. Personally, I think everyone can have an area in their lives where they are vulnerable to being lied to and believing it. I was looking at various aspects of publishing when I accidentally came across accounts of literary scams. I hadn't thought about it before then, simply because my focus was on developing my writing and learning very basic things, like that it's a good idea to get an agent. I don't think I was being overly naive, I just wasn't aware of what I didn't know. I think I've had a very lucky escape.

PA authors are clearly not a homogeneous group, I think there are different reasons why people are pulled into it. But by and large, they appear to believe what PA says. And PA lies. Personally, I don't think the problem is with the authors, I think it's with the company that is lying to them.

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Re: Nothing delusional from this corner.

So how recent is recent, in your opinion?

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Courtesy of the index thread. Scroll down to Victoria and HapiSofi's posts.

Poor silly fools. I have very little sympathy for them.

Click to expand...

Whatever. You should be aware that the number one rule here is "respect your fellow writers." Otherwise, it belongs in the Take it Outside Board.

RE: Nothing delusional from this corner

"Hey! I think I'll open a golf course, just put some holes in a big green field, how hard could that be?"

Click to expand...

Gee... that's what a fellow did in the hollow where I grew up and he makes a pretty good living doing it.

Seriously... people don't think to do net searches for the same reasons that many fall for those phishing scams whereby they send their confidential info to someone to transfer millions of dollars into their accounts. It's like reading a newspaper... "if it's in the paper, it must be true." People tend to think along the same lines when it comes to the internet, without ever realizing that there are numerous contradictions from one site to another dealing with the same subject. The more uncomfortable you are with technology the less likely you are to do a search as well.

Let's not start making fun of people because they don't have the knowledge to do these things. Before the net, people were just as likely to fall for the same kinds of schemes. For many, technology is just not that easy to deal with.

I've been around computers for a loooonnng time now and I still have to write the first draft longhand. Not because I don't know word processing, email, or how to make a pdf, etc. but because I'm more comfortable with a pen and paper when the words are flowing.

Re: Various Matters

don't forget that there are a LOT of PA authors, especially on the bulletin boards on their site, that gush about how wonderful PA is to start with.

they parrot the party line and dismiss anyone who complains as a whiner, etc - and, of course, any posts to the contrary are deleted.

so the average person looking over the site and the bulletin board would get the impression that there are hundreds of satisified authors, all booking appointments with their local bookstores for signings - and if you see real people posting their success stories, who are you to doubt them?

of course, then reality hits in when YOU try to do the same thing - and suddenly there's no store that will carry your book and unless you're into major harassment and cheap tricks like ordering your own book and never picking it up, you end up here, in this thread.

Respecting your fellow writers

"Whatever. You should be aware that the number one rule here is "respect your fellow writers."

Been lots of that going on in this thread, yeppers, lots of respect. Mmmhh hhmmm. Right.

But I forgot. This is the slam PA thread, the neverending obsession thread. I guess you're right, if I want to tell the truth, I have to take it outside.

Re: Public PA message board message

Maybe I got carried away, guys. I do respect what you are trying to do here, just hate to see you trying to help some people who don't want to be helped, you know? There are those that will never see the light, for they choose not to. But, it's your battle, fight on.

Re: Public PA message board message

I have bought books from many authors and handed the money to them or one of their employees. I bought a copy of Relic from Douglas Preston in a Fred Meyer store in Kennewick, Washington--shortly before the movie came out. I read books on writing by major writers all the time, and they all seem to mention selling their own books. I have never before heard that major publishers include clauses in the contract language preventing the authors from purchasing and selling their own books.

But then I am a magazine author just starting into the book-writing business. So what do I know?

This has been interesting, and thank you all. I am going to sign off on this thread and get back to my writing now. Hope to meet some of you again on other strands.

Donna

Re: Various Matters

"There are those that will never see the light, for they choose not to."

And then there are those who are blinded by the light.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com

Re: Public PA message board message

My contract allows me to buy books at a considerable discount but says I cannot sell them. I remember wondering why it was there in the first place since I didn't plan on (personally) selling any anyway.

They gave me 15 freebies so it's not something I had to worry about.

Blinded by the light

There is one such PA author in my town. The only reason I discovered PA at all, and this is a sad story, and actually, I feel kinda sorry for him, cause he still thinks he's doing what any writer would do.

I went to the library one day about 8 months ago, and he had a flyer on the counter advertising his book. Well, 10 years ago, I sold life insurance, and his mother was one of my customers. That far back, he was young and determined to be a writer. I forgot about him until I saw that flyer.

So, I went home and googled his name and it led me to the pay site. It put a big spin on how he was traveling the state, doing signings, speaking at the area schools, making it sound like he was a big success. But then I googled PA and read all the negative stuff and realized he had to be doing all of this at his own expense.

I feel more sorry for his mother though. She footed the bills back then for him to follow his dream. I would imagine she still is. And the worst part, the excerpt from the novel sounded like a fifth grader wrote it.

Just thought I'd share that with ya'll. I am not completely heartless, just don't get why folks don't think they should study the aspects of a business before they jump in. But I guess you are right, Dee, they are so blinded by the light of hope that PA offers, they don't want to see anything else.

And by the way, I bet that guy with the successful golf course learned about operating one first!

Re: Various Matters

At book signings at book fests and stores, I always bought the book from a clerk associated with the store or festival, then gave the book to the writer to sign. Sometimes the cc reader was right at the tiny table where the author was signing.

I did open some eyes today

There was a woman in WN today talking about bringing her dog to her book signing, and how she needed to set them up, and I asked her why her publisher wasn't taking care of that, she emailed me and said she was published with PA, and she didn't know they were supposed to do that.

I emailed her the link to this thread, and told her I hated to be the bearer of bad news.

Re: Public PA message board message

I've had contracts with 4 major publishers (3 of which are now the same publisher--how's that for consolidation?) and every one has prohibited me from re-selling books. Smaller publishers sometimes allow this, but the majors mostly don't.

- Victoria

wurdwise

And by the way, I bet that guy with the successful golf course learned about operating one first!

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I doubt it, honestly, wurdwise. It's the worst golf course I've ever seen since 85% of it is on a mountain side... note, I said mountain... It slants at about a 60-70 degree angle... but people in the area play it anyway... where? WV coal mine country... It's called the Twelve Pole Golf Course... that's the name of the place where it's located, not the number of holes. I really don't know anything about golf but I really am a hillbilly, ya know.

wurdwise

Maybe I got carried away, guys. I do respect what you are trying to do here, just hate to see you trying to help some people who don't want to be helped, you know? There are those that will never see the light, for they choose not to. But, it's your battle, fight on.

Click to expand...

The same steps would be taken that are being taken, not for the ones who don't want to know but the ones who do. Like you said, you can't help anybody who doesn't want it but you can't just walk away because this one or that one or another one wants to argue the facts... for every one who doesn't want help, there is one, or more, who does.

Re: PA backlash against negative publicity?

Is it just me or is there a sudden influx of "disinterested" parties showing up at the various writing forums and posting a lot of devil's advocate commentary about how PA really isn't that bad? I've noticed it here and at Writer's Weekly; they might be at Writers Net but I don't hang out there much anymore.

Could this be a concerted effort by PA and their minions to counteract the expected media attention (presumably some of it negative) in the coming weeks?

*adjusts tinfoil hat*

Maggie

Re: Messages from private boards

Maggie, I think you are exactly right. This is a pre-emptive strike by the PAvidians, as they know that a big dose of literary cod liver oil is coming their way soon...

:x

Editing...

Just an example here, Donna (in case you DO decide to float back in here) of what real publishers do regarding editing.

Now, mind you, I've never been published with PA, nor do I ever plan on it. But I've heard the stories. Writers get proofs back with obvious errors on it, and when they make changes or ask to have them made, PA tells them "Too bad, no way". They won't make those simple changes that the author wants. It's done and over with in less than a week.

I am being published with a small publisher. A traditional publisher. My editor sent me my book four times, each time with another quarter marked up for me to look at. He made changes in tense, corrected spelling mistakes and even made suggestions for additions or deletions of things. We never changed the storyline, but the things he suggested, most of them I agreed with. They were actual WORDING changes, not spelling, not grammar. Now that we're done with that, he's going to read the entire book over again, just to make sure that he got everything just right, before sending it to my editor-in-chief. Then she'll send it to the illustrator, then I'll get proofs to read it AGAIN.

See the difference? At least two to three people will be reading it two or three times to make sure it's correct. PA only sends it through the spell checker and when it changes even things that were already correct, PA refuses to change them back. What you get is a shoddy product.

Then, let's talk about promotion. My publisher will be sending out ARC's (advance review copies) to have my book reviewed before release. It will be in review for AT LEAST six months. And I've talked with my publisher, they will be having their PR person (they have one!) call and send out sell sheets to my local stores, when all I have to do is walk into the store and say "I'm so and so, author of this book, my publisher contacted you, let's set up a time to do a signing." Then the store will order the books, and, this is important, the books will ARRIVE AT THE STORE ON TIME (barring some major catastrophe). I don't have to buy or bring a thing but me and my pens.

This is a traditional publisher. They sell books - to bookstores. PA is just a printer, and not a very good one at that. Yes, they sell books - overpriced, poorly edited books - to their own authors. The fact that they call themselves a traditional publisher is just a lie. A Big, Fat, lie.

I hope the difference is clear Donna.