The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Re: The fact of it is...

I'm curious how he feels now.

That's an interesting article indeed. First, Mr. Hatch is in the best possible possition for a self-published writer (which he is, face it). He's got a work of specialized non-fiction, and he's an expert at self-promotion. He's one of my Category Ones.

I wonder if that article is the ur-source for the weird false dichotomy of Print-on-Demand/Publish-on-Demand.

I wonder too if we're seeing the first version of the X-feet-of-bookshelf-per-Y-time argument.

I don't know if this is the place to comment on some of the ... unsupported ... arguments he makes.

Well, maybe one or two.

That scenario he gives, early on, with "ABC by Sample A. Sample" has a really dreadful sell-through. That book has a 25% sell-through. Your expected sell-through for a hardback is 70%, and for a paperback is 60%.

Yes, in that extreme and non-typical example, the publisher will lose money. (I recommend that Sample A. Sample change his name, his agent, and his publisher before he tries to sell his next book.)

More typical would be: Bookstore orders five, sells three, and returns two. Everyone makes money, everyone's happy. (To address another point here: At that moment, net change in linear feet of bookshelf required by the bookstore is zero.)

I'm very sorry about Mr. Hatch's adventures with the novel that didn't get any reviews. Presumably the advance check cleared? Does he really feel that it's better to be in a place where if an author asks "how many review copies did you send out?" the answer is "Don't take that tone with us!"

Ah, well. Maybe some other time.

Denny Hatch and wonderful PA

Gee, I hate to get off topic here, but....

Regarding the article that Denny Hatch wrote extolling the virtuous behavior of PA and it's founders--what a crock! He claims that the return policy and warehousing is environmentally and economically unsound? That's it's a waste of space storing all those books and it's a no-win financial losing situation for the publisher?

That poor-poor authors don't deserve the cruel rejections and the constant wait on responses? That
90% of all advances don't earn out? That writers will never have a chance of true publication because they're all slush-bound anyway?

Anybody that is such as advocate for the poor-poor writer ought to consider how deep in debt most of the PA authors are getting into, selling a dozen of their books and giving a whole heck of a lot of them away to fellow PA'ers. And, NOT getting anymore of an advance for their "hard work" than one bongo buck!

READ THAT ARTICLE! It's not only inflammatory, it's contradictory as well. It sounds that he was rejected after about three submissions and threw up his hands, declaring all-out-war on the whole traditional publishing industry.

Inconceivable!

Tri

Re: Challenge for Everybody

SimonSaid:

As hard as it may be for you and others to believe, my goal is to help you.

Click to expand...

I knew it! He's from the government!

I bet the cheque is in the mail too.

Re: Re: A moment of PA relevant levity....

Actually Sofi, the career is going well. I just turned in a rewrite for a feature and a major cable channel is interested in one of my series ideas.

Thanks for asking.

I may have missed this...

...but can anyone post where the Denny Hatch article is located, or at least email me the link?

[email protected]

Thanks!

Re: Challenge for Everybody

Dave - the issue is not whether you are allowed to. The issue is that in many cases there is no reason to - or at least there's no reason to discuss your findings ad nauesuem on this board.

And the last time I checked - it was not your job to build a case - I thought that was up to the authorities. There's no way to prove that your cut and pasted posts were actually cut and pasted from the PA forums - so I'm not really sure that it would stand up in court as evidence.

Besides, I don't really know how helpful it will be to the FTC or the Attorney General to know that someone was complaining on the PA boards that PA has not returned their emails - and then PA removed the post - the last time I checked not returning emails and removing posts from a board that you own was not a crime - feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

You probably see it as a pattern of mistreatment of PA authors - but once again, being rude to your customers is not a crime (see Seinfeld's Soup Nazi) In fact there are far more consumer complaints on a percentage basis against legit companies (i.e. cellphone companies, airlines, cable companies, banks) then against PA.

The "CASE" is PA's deceptive advertising, royalty payments, rights issues, etc. The fact that they are rude is a sideshow.

I think there is enough information on this thread (way more than enough) to give any writer the information they would need to make an informed decision of whether or not to go with PA. In fact, i cannot imagine that any writer seeking legitimate publication would choose PA after reading even parts of this thread - no matter what HB and his minions would say to contradict things. This thread is tacked to the top of the bewares board and therefore not in danger of being buried if it was locked tomorrow.

Re: Challenge for Everybody

Why do you want so badly for this thread to die?

Re: Challenge for Everybody

I don't want the thread to die, Pub. I just feel that there is a unhealthy focus on the PA boards, the PA authors who are happy being so, and a venomous, cattiness that may be cathartic for the victims, but is totally unacceptable when it comes from the professionals who should be offering support but remaining professional. Instead they actively participate in such behavior. I think it hurts the cause.

Yes, the victims are emotional, but you also need a core group of people to remain rational in order to achieve your goals. When people are emotional, they not only often don't communicate clearly, but they often cannot differentiate between the meat and the fat. A lot of effort on this board is focused on the fat.

A couple days ago someone compared HB to Hitler. Jenna removed the post - but before she did, not one person (and several of the pros posted in the interim) pointed out that this statement was over top. I think it is the responsiblity of the professionals to help the victims keep things in some kind of perspective. When a remark like that goes unchallenged, this is clearly not being done. When a statement like that is deemed acceptable - things have gone beyond all reason. Again, those without an emotional investment have a responsibility to stay on point and be professional and make sure that the message is communicated clearly, simply and without hysterics or hyperbole.

Re: ENOUGH!!!!

Good God!! I leave for the day to go shopping and return a few minutes ago, get here to see what has been going on since I last checked and I can NOT believe what I'm reading!>:

People, stop answering Simon, you know what he's doing and that is trying to distract from what you all are trying to do. If he keeps at it long enough he will turn new people away never to return again!

KNOCK IT OFF!!! Let him talk to himself, don't answer him, don't argue with him, please.

Let's get this board back to what it was set up to be, helping writers who may be thinking about going with PA, or those who has already done so and now needs a shoulder to lean on and know that it is not the end of the world.

Dave, stop this, you are bigger than that. I know its hard not to fire back at someone who posts things but you MUST stop it!

Victoria and Ann, you two don't owe any one anything, I've known both of you long before this board was set up and if I had known either of you BEFORE I signed my first contract with PA I would be in a much better place than I am now.

Since I am probably the oldest person on this board (62 years this past Sept.) I'm pulling an age thingy and demanding you children stop acting like this. All of you, go to your room right this minute and don't come out until you know how to act!!!

:smokin
Violet

Re: ENOUGH!!!!

Good God!! I leave for the day to go shopping and return a few minutes ago, get here to see what has been going on since I last checked and I can NOT believe what I'm reading!>:

People, stop answering Simon, you know what he's doing and that is trying to distract from what you all are trying to do. If he keeps at it long enough he will turn new people away never to return again!

KNOCK IT OFF!!! Let him talk to himself, don't answer him, don't argue with him, please.

Let's get this board back to what it was set up to be, helping writers who may be thinking about going with PA, or those who has already done so and now needs a shoulder to lean on and know that it is not the end of the world.

Dave, stop this, you are bigger than that. I know its hard not to fire back at someone who posts things but you MUST stop it!

Victoria and Ann, you two don't owe any one anything, I've known both of you long before this board was set up and if I had known either of you BEFORE I signed my first contract with PA I would be in a much better place than I am now.

Since I am probably the oldest person on this board (62 years this past Sept.) I'm pulling an age thingy and demanding you children stop acting like this. All of you, go to your room right this minute and don't come out until you know how to act!!!

:smokin
Violet

Re: This is like watching the same...

Simone... that's the idea. Now, there is enough dirt on Willem to warn off new recruits. Just take a gander at Willem doing the snoopy dance and the quote of Dan Poynter's underneath: "Bookstores are a lousy place to sell books." If anyone looks bad here it's PA.

Of course you're right on the deleted threads and messages angle. The FTC won't care about that sideshow. The idea is to get them to care about the deceptive advertising. Publicity won't hurt that cause on bit. Just because Gary Kessler, who has a multitude of vanity press books, thinks the whole affair is much ado about nothing doesn't mean the show isn't valid-- or necessary.

This continues to be about scamming folks that can ill-afford to be scammed. Nobody should be. Any article on the merit of PA is easily debunked. Eliminate the source.

Is there any policy on these boards...

...regarding trolling, and the incessant repeating of posts ad infinitum?

Re: Talent v. Responibility

Ah actually violet it's "she."

Re: ENOUGH!!!!

DITTO !! Winnie!

Re: That dead horse

There's no way to prove that your cut and pasted posts were actually cut and pasted from the PA forums - so I'm not really sure that it would stand up in court as evidence.

The posts are from the PA board, I would be a witness...

Simonsays, you have a real problem. While you are wasting our time, there are Authors out there who need help. Go Home

Re: This is like watching the same...

Actually JB I wasn't referring to Gary Kessler. The person who said it does not post on any message boards - but he did have much to say after reading the PW message boards.

Actually he is the one who originally pointed out how bad pretty much everyone on that thread looked and although he said he wouldn't blacklist anyone based on the fact that they posted, he did say he would be hesitant to read some of the posters' work, in most cases because their grammar was so bad and in one case because they seemed like they would be real pain in the butt.

I can't imagine why you felt it necessary to point out my sex, not that it was a secret, I just don't generally find the need to talk about the size of my breasts (36 C for the record) on a message board. Apparently you however, find it to be a big deal.... interesting....... should I return the favor and mention the small size of a certain appendage of yours?

Sick of this

Vic, will you please let me know when Simon quits dumping on Writer Beware and the other professionals on this board? He refused my challenge, so I assume that he's just going to continue to lecture me as though I were a not-very-bright child, and I just don't need that.

And as for the pros in here not "moving on," I'm currently immersed in the copyedited manuscript for book one of my new trilogy for Harper. A nice, fat, epic fantasy trilogy set in my new original fantasy world. Just because we don't talk about our projects doesn't mean we sit in here nattering about PA and eating bon-bons 24/7, Simon.

Oh, and one word of advice for Simon:

If Gary Kessler is your guru for publishing information, I would be cautious. He's well-intentioned, but he doesn't know much about publishing with the major houses. His writing experience has been with small presses and POD outfits. He talks as though he's had experience at every level of publishing, but he hasn't.

GK does indeed have it in for Writer Beware, me, and Victoria. My guess as to why is that both of us are more successful writers than he is. He earns his living as a freelance editor, but he admitted publicly not long ago that he's never received an advance for any of the books he's written. A long time ago the three of us faced off over publishing info on Writers.net, and he's had it in for Vic and me ever since. (In one instance, Kessler went to the mat declaring that no first time authors could reasonably expect to receive an advance for a novel. When Victoria and I assured him that we both had received advances for our novels, it made him angry. He hasn't been civil to either of us since then.)

Basically you're casting a lot of aspersions and making a lot of assumptions, Simon. I don't think you're winning yourself any friends. If I were you, I'd take a step back and let this thread get back to the business at hand -- serving authors as a forum of information and commentary on Publish America, both by publishing professionals and PA authors.

For now, folks, over and OUT...

-Ann C. Crispin

Re: Is there any policy on these boards...

The best way to deal with a troll, other than the moderator or whoever booting them out, is to just please totally ignore them. This person has no one's best interest at heart, other then his own. He's doing his best to sow seeds of doubt between people who have worked together for a common goal. Please don't let him bait you over and over again. This is what, the third day that he has insinuated himself into this thread? 'Nuff is 'nuff and trust me, this is way more than enough.

When it gets to the point where someone like Ann Crispin is put on the defense like she has been, I think it's time for Jenna to say/do something. Please Jenna?

SB

re: Sick of this

Ann -

I did not bash Writers Beware (never have, never will) and I specifically said that you and Victoria usually do stay above the fray - although you are proving me wrong at the moment, by ignoring the fact that I said that you and Victoria stay above the fray and accusing me of dumping on Writer Beware which I have never done. I challenge YOU to go back and find one derogatory statement I have ever made about your website - you will never find one, because I never did it. In fact you will find a number of places where I express admiration for what you and Victoria do.

But your post is a damn good example of putting words in other peoples mouth and exhbiting behavior that should be beneath a professional advocate such as yourself. I don't have to go back through the threads to prove my point, you very eloquently proved it for me. Thank you.

I also said specfically that Gary Kessler was NOT the person I was referring to. Perhaps we cross posted - or perhaps you just choose to jump to conclusions with no evidence. I never said or implied I was talking about Gary Kessler and I repeat I was not. I don't know Gary Kessler personally. I have nothing against Gary, he seems pretty knowledgable, but I certainly don't know enough about him to have the respect that I have for the person who made the statements. Perhaps my friend just sees what Gary sees even without whatever history Gary has. He merely read the PW board and formed his own opinions about certain people based on their own words. Food for thought, no?

As for moving on - I was not referring to the pros - I was referring to the victims, moving on - healing - letting go. In the Elizabeth Kubla Ross stages of grief - this board seems to be a quagmire of the anger stage. Feeding anger, encouraging anger as opposed to healing. I know people who have gotten over the death of a loved one faster than some people on this board have gotten over what is essentially a bad publishing deal.

It's all about perspective and there is none on this board.

Looking forward to that royalty check!

well, the new year is here and in a month or so the questions will be coming up about the PublishAmerica royalty checks...

of course, that's going to be interesting considering that there are probably outstanding problems with the LAST set of checks, as we've seen via Dee and others... any idea how many got ripped by this last royalty period and how many are still waiting for "new" checks from PA?

can those of you with traditional publishers explain what should be on these statements? I've only received a few since I got trapped into the PA mire and they listed the discount given to the retailer (40%); the price they received the discount on and how many were sold - leaving me with a pittance, of course. I cashed the checks immediately, obviously - and bought a cup of tea at Starbucks, wiping it out.

so what SHOULD be on these statements???

thanks in advance!

Re: Looking forward to that royalty check!

so what SHOULD be on these statements???

That varies from publisher to publisher, FM.

Minimum you should see is how many sold at what royalty rate, total royalty income, and amount remaining on your advance.

Any special sales should be broken out separately.

This is without going into the entire "reserve against returns" brangle, which I don't care to play with right here right now, other than to comment that it all works out, eventually.

Re: Looking forward to that royalty check!

thanks, James... just beginning to get my meager receipts together for da tax man and was curious..

Wow

I've enjoyed lurking on this board because everyone is in the writing biz on some level. I've found the advice wonderful and the lengths people will go to to fight a just cause enlightening.

The recent posts, however, have digressed into something akin to a traffic accident. I want to avert my eyes but I can't. I'm certain it's a character flaw.

One thing that sticks out is SimonSays. She is aptly named. Do what Simon Says. She is here to keep us on track and protect us from ourselves and dictate etiquette. Damn, where were you when my pen hovered above the PA contract? And where has your outrage been when you heard about Willem Meiners and Larry Cloppers unleashing armed guards at a simple author's convention? Why is it that PA is allowed to lie, cheat, and intimidate without your outrage?

Simon, you want us to stay on track and I quite agree. I hardly see how exposing this company's questionable tactics, both personally and professionally, hurt. If you don't like how this thread reads, why can't you simply go somewhere else instead of trying to coerce us into play Simon Says?

Royalty statements

Count your blessings, cuz it could be like this:

/business.thomasnelson.co...tement.jsp

Let's move along

Okay, the SimonSays sideshow is over.

If her posts from now on continue to flog the same deceased equine, they'll be deleted, as will any responses.

If Simon wishes to continue with her current line of observations she's welcome to use the Take It Outside board. Anyone wishing to address her last post may do so there as well.