The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Conspiracy beliefs?

Jenna, I've seen these things in action before. If someone fails to succeed after another states that it can be done, then the individual looks for a reason why he failed since he did it in the manner that was recommended. Therefore, it had to be an outside influence and the individual grasps at blaming anything that counsels against the advice he was given on how to succeed.

In this way, the individual avoids condemning the source of his advice since the source must be right because the source claims that it worked before. As well, the individual avoids personally absorbing the blame for failure because it can now be placed on someone external to the process. What's even better is that this avoidance of responsibility works equally well for individuals and groups, though groups tend to reinforce the belief since they can commiserate with each other.

Re: Found an author in New York who will go on camera!

I'm getting frustrated that there's still a belief circulating PA that we're "conspiring" against them. Can someone explain the gap in communication to me? I'm not understanding. I feel like it's really obvious that we're on the authors' side and just trying to help them get better treatment and honesty from their publisher. How does that get turned into a bad thing?

Click to expand...

It's jingoism Jenna. A misplaced and fervent patriotism. Remember "America - Love it or leave it?" "My country - right or wrong?"

PA's colours, its name, and its cheerleaders all tap into that vein. It's sad, but it's been working for them...until recently. I really think Meiners et al are feeling the heat and daily, more and more PA authors are seeing the light.

The good guys are gonna win.

I thought it was--

"My mother, drunk or sober" not "My country - right or wrong"

Jenna, I guess...

...demonizing "the opposition" is a propaganda ploy as old as the art of communication itself. Since PA tries so hard to make its authors feel that its an "us vs. them" mentality re the publishing world, it's no surprise that they portray us in the manner they do.

On another note, I wanna be a charter member of your fan club, you sweet, kind, and intelligent lady!

Oh God, another PA "multi-author" book signing...

...with HB leading the charge...


Message:
March 26th at the Holiday Inn.

That sounds like a pretty good venue to me. HEY TIM, KAS, FRANK, JENNIFER, AND RICH!!! ARE WE ALL UP FOR THIS?

C'mon Ohio gang, let's do this stuff again. Let's invade yet another city and show a newbie why PA authors are the best on the planet.

I'M OFFICIALLY IN!!! I will be there but now I need you to email me at [email protected] so I can get your address. I have a roll of contest tickets for you. Start something up right now where ticket holders have to be there the day of the signing. Starting to catch on?

Talk to the doughnut shops and stuff in exchange for promotional consideration. I have a thing for free coffee. Local libraries have expense accounts too, by the way. Drain them.

Listen, you have a butt-load of time to pull this off, so start arranging the local businesses for backing and free stuff. Motels will even give you free rooms believe it or not. Just remember that these people want in on the advertisement in flyers and with the media.

ARE YOU READY FOR THIS STUFF OR DO YOU NEED HELP HERE?

You won't believe the education you're about to get. WHO ELSE FROM OUT OF STATE WANTS IN ON THIS?

Can I hear a little response from the PA family here please?



kas

12/18/2004
11:01:51


RE: MULTI-AUTHOR BOOKSIGNING


Message:
I would like to be included, BUT, I have received some strange e-mails reguarding this event.

I would require a phone number to the holiday inn, to make sure the signing was really happening. I don't want to drive a hundred miles for,(The joke is on you.)

HB Marcus

12/18/2004
14:49:56

H. B. Marcus
CRISPY
The Joe Schmoe Show
RE: MULTI-AUTHOR BOOKSIGNING


Message:
Stop right there Kas, what's the number? I'll find out what the deal is, but where did you get the heads-up from? 'Consider tha source' brings on a whole new meaning when we're talking about PA basher terrorists.

Re: DUnno why

*falls off chair laughing*

with HB as a spokesman, PA is going to be out of business with the first interview.

and I've seen these multi-author debacles before - first, who's going to GO to a Holiday Inn for a book sale? Unless you know the people there, you're not going to see much traffic other than the poor hotel residents who are going to be dashing past the tables with great speed. This isn't even a local mall where you're going to get shopping traffic - give your head a shake, folks - the only money you're going to see is you handing OUT cash for more books you can't sell!

and I see he goes back again to harassing the local merchants for "promotional consideration" - and does he really believe that Holiday Inn is going to give away free rooms?

the man is seriously deluded at best, part of PA's thieves guild at the worst.

Free hotel rooms...
:rollin :rollin :rollin

Free Hotel Rooms

When I've planned and hosted SFWA events, it's true that the hotels did give us some complimentary rooms, but they had a "minimum booking" figure of like 40 rooms booked before they'd do any such thing.

I can't picture 40 PA authors traveling to a signing in a Holiday Inn to sit there with H.B. Marcus. The man is almost a caricature of a PA booster.

He and I went at it hammer and tongs once for about two days over on Writers.net a couple of years ago. He was bound and determined that I'd admit to being a rejected PA author. At some point he must have looked up my books on Amazon.com, because all of a sudden he stopped posting.

There are two PA authors I've ever "dumped on" and he's one of them. But he did a lot of name-calling first, using words like "liar," "loser," "failure," "thief," "stupid," etc., before I got irritated and fought back.

It takes quite a bit of abuse to get me annoyed enough to name-call. It's unworthy. I have never flamed anyone who didn't majorly flame me first.

(Matter of fact, I left the SFWA boards because of all the flaming. Some people enjoy that kind of interaction. I do not.)

-Ann C. Crispin

Re: DUnno why

H.B. Marcus said on that thread,

"Local libraries have expense accounts too, by the way. Drain them."

I used to work in a library. That comment just depresses me.

Re: DUnno why

as well it should - it amazes me that he believes that everyone has scads of money to toss around for overpriced books. Yes, you, PA author, should be prepared to pay for your own hotel room, at least twenty copies of your own book and hope that you can somehow draw attention to your small table and chair sitting in the HOTEL LOBBY?

to say nothing of the fact that this particular Holiday Inn may NOT want such public displays sitting out there in anything other than a PAID conference area. Sure isn't good business to have your patrons be jumped by eager authors on their way to the pool and all.

so you're paying for a hotel room (unless you get over 40 authors, and that's not going to happen because Holiday Inn may actually want the money in advance), paying for your own books (and praying that PA can deliver them to you in time for you to max out your credit card), paying for a conference area (because you can't sit in the lobby and all) and then hope to sell books to the general public who won't know you from a hole in the ground unless you stick flyers all over their car windshields in the local watering hole?

PA authors who are reading this - think this over VERY carefully before you go. The Ohio debacle a year or so ago should give you major pause before going to this one. And that was held in an actual mall - this is in a HOTEL! Your audience will most likely be each other!

it continues to astond me that anyone takes him seriously. Maybe the new PA authors who don't have a book in print yet and haven't smashed into the wall of reality, but those who do...

*shakes head*

the mind truly boggles...

Note: it says that the cost is "only" $75 a table - and you have to bring your own books, of course.

please tell me that you have better things to do with your money, PA authors... you do NOT have to buy your own books over and over again to be a "real" author!

Hope springs eternal(?)

I have a rather serious question about the PA mess, and I hope someone here can give the definitve answer.

I know there have been a lot of threads recently about how serious the situation is growing over in Frederick, with all the fit-to-be-tied authors (me included), weird Publishers Weekly postings by "Carl", increasingly bad press, et. al., but does anyone have any hard, fast proof that the PA wheels really are about to come off? And if so, what exactly does this mean to those of us with books still held in thrall there? I guess what I'm asking is, in the end, will PA yet wiggle free of this, or is their end truly in sight?

John

Re: Seems there is a bit of a rallying of the PA troups

And what would happen to P.A. authors still under contract if something happens to P.A.? I've heard before that it can be difficult to get rights back if another company takes over a publishing house that's gone under, even if there is a clause in the contract stating rights should revert to the author.

Is there such a clause in the P.A. contract, and is this a potential problem for P.A. authors?

PA bashing

As an ex-PA author I've only really been badly dumped on by two writer advocates. Both times the conversations started off fine and slowly grew worse until someone's temper flared too far. I would say that both sides feel vindicated that it was the other's fault. At this point I don't really care who "started it" as it was an embarrassment for all involved.

Personally, I think when you're arguing with someone who is deep in a bad situation (and doesn't know it) it isn't up to you to belittle them and make them feel worse. Now I have the pleasure of being on the opposite end, where (I assume, as they don't say they are) PA authors are trying to defend against some of the things I have to say about POD publishing.

I don't get mad at them. As a matter of course I let them blow off steam, I allow them to say what they will, and I stick to the facts. Mostly I do this because there are those watching who are outside the POD published and need the information to stay out. Partly I do things that way because, sooner or later, the honeymoon ends.

Let's make them feel comfortable coming here and not like they're doing it with their tail between their legs.

D James

PS-

As an aside, I do have to confess to being surprised at Jim's argument with "Carl" over at PW. It was a recreation of the "James and Dave Show" and looked bad.

Just my two cents.

Re: PA Bashing

D James -

I couldn't agree with you more. I have pointed out more than once that certain advocates on this board need to stay above the fray and remain professional - because it really does look bad - and I think it hurts their reps in the eyes of the legit publishing world.

I am appalled by what the PW message board evolved into and think that if anybody other than PA crusaders and defenders bothered to read the board - they probably don't have a good feeling about either side - as the victims and advocates come off looking as petty and self-righteous as the defenders.

While it may be understandable that the victims are operating from emotion - it is another story entirely when it comes to the "professionals". They should stay on point and not feel the need to counter attack every stupid, ridiculous remark made by Carl. I mean really, do they think aspiring authors are too dumb to "get it" without they're constant "Are not! Are too!!"?

It is also extremely unprofessional to get vicious or personal or to attack the way they do. Apparently the feeling is that it's acceptable behavior as long as the person is on the perceived wrong side of the issue. I cannot imagine Steven King or Donald Maas behaving in such away on boards like this - regardless of how passionate they felt on the issue.

King & Maas are the desired peers and colleagues for everyone on these boards.

Sadly, I have become convinced that they will never see the light, because they get too much positive re-inforcement from the troops on this board.

It's a pity.

Re: Seems there is a bit of a rallying of the PA troups

Honestly, there are a couple of different versions of the PA contract. Each author needs to check their own contract and, if need be, consult a lawyer.

Hope springs eternal(?)

That's a good question with no definitive answer.

Poetry.com and International Society of Poets are prime examples of still operating after being exposed by the national media for their greed in taking your money by exploiting a person's dreams.

PublishAmerica will most likely weather the storm because they know many people with dreams to be published authors will continue to stumble across their website and not be aware of the facts that are intentionally left out of a PublishAmerica contract.

The owners at PA like the owners at Poetry.com and ISP know people have short memories and want immediate satisfaction to being published. The owners can and will continue to exploit a person's dream to be published and still sleep like a baby at night.

The fight with PublishAmerica owners and not the PA authors will continue. Unfortunately, most PA authors will be the innocent victims in the struggle to eliminate the unethical practices of PublishAmerica or to shut them down.

Laws will have to be changed or current laws enforced to force PublishAmerica to insert the facts about the No Return Policy, higher than normal book prices and No Viable Publisher Marketing into their contracts.

Rookie authors including myself without legit and savy literary agents fall for this manipulation of an author's dreams. If those facts had been in the contract, you would see a For Sale sign in the office window at PA.

HB can cry read your contract closer all you want. The true facts are not in the contract to overlook. HB should be ashamed of himself for helping to lure unsuspecting rookie authors into the PA trap. Wake up HB! People dedicated to fighting PA's bad business practices are not hurting the thousands of PA authors as you stated. PublishAmerica is the culprit. You're a smart guy. Why are you being the PA Pied Piper? Are you not ashamed of the name that you are making for yourself in this small world of publishing?

As a PA author, I for one dislike this intentional omission of facts by PA in their contracts and will continue to push for changes or closure of PublishAmerica. HB and other PA authors for the sake of being able to say 'I'm a published author' may not have a problem with PA fleecing of hundreds if not perhaps thousands of authors who silently go away and take their lumps quitely. I do have a problem with this underhanded way to do business.

Even the loss of one book is worth the price of helping future authors to avoid the PA trap.

If PA goes out of business, the courts and whoever is owed money will claim printing rights to the books. Your book could be tied up for years. That scenerio could happen with any publisher. Definitely a question for a lawyer.

Write your next book but don't stop pressing for changes. PA wants you to go away. They are counting on it.

HB, I know you read this board. Please post your rebuttal here so it won't get deleted.

P&C
Staying Close To My Unethical Publisher, PublishAmerica

Hope springs eternal(?)

Proand Con:

"Laws will have to be changed or current laws enforced to force PublishAmerica to insert the facts about the No Return Policy, higher than normal book prices and No Viable Publisher Marketing into their contracts."

Not sure you're right about thata P&C. Contracts are binding agreements between two parties. They choose what obligations do and do not appear in the contract. Both are entitled to have legal representatives to negotiate their obligations and responsibilities.

The issue with PA is their deceptive marketing, not their contracts. Obviously they are living up to their obligations under the contracts, or unhappy authors would be able to get out of it. Obviously the contracts are not illegal and are binding or else again authors would be able to get out of them.

I'm not sure if it is industry standard to have the company's return polices, etc. in their author contracts, and my guess is they wouldn't want them there. Print runs, marketing plans etc. can chage from the time a book is contracted until it is published. If market conditions or world events change in such a way that the interest would have waned, no publisher is going to want to be obligated to put specific marketing dollars behind a book that no longer has the market potential it had a year and a half earlier.

Anyone who is signing a contract for something that as important to them as having a book published - should consult an attorney.

Re: a question

Hmm. This is a brilliant page. I hope everyone re-reads it.

I've been having e-mail conversations with a few PA authors, trying to figure out where our communication is breaking down. Here's what I've discovered, and I think it's all valid:

-Just as D James said, we need to make it easier for PAers to come over here without feeling like they're doing so with their tails between their legs.

-The problem is almost 100% a matter of tone. Recent example (don't mean to pick on you, Jim): Argile and the Midwest Book Review comment. I've been chatting with Argile. He's a big-hearted and fine individual who's more than willing to have a good conversation. I'm embarrassed to lead him here to find out that people have "laughed" at him. Same points can be made without the teasing. Midwest Book Review was, at one point, a respectable place to get reviewed. It still is something an author should be proud of-- any unbiased, positive review is a good thing. Most new authors don't know that getting reviewed at Midwest is no longer the impressive credential it once was. We can tell them that without condescending, I think.

-No more posting links to excerpts that we consider "bad," or pointing out specific authors who can't string a sentence together. Our beef is not with them. They haven't harmed anyone. They just want to write and be taken seriously. If you want to help a writer who's in need of an editor, please do so in private and not embarrass them publicly. It only scares off others because they worry that maybe we'd think the same things of them, or tear them apart if we find typos on their sites/books.

-We can't lose sight of the feelings of many PA authors who, when they got that acceptance letter, felt overjoyed that someone had found worth in their words. It's a hard crash to reality and can take every bit of a writer's self-confidence in its wake. The writer realizes, "Hey, wait, PA didn't believe in me and my work after all. Maybe my writing IS no good." I have seen it happen with the most talented writers among them. We have to be sensitive to that, because the other option is that they go firmly into denial to save their own feelings-- they HAVE to believe that PA is everything they say they are, or they're left with no one who has ever believed in their worth as a writer. We need to soften the blow. Being published with PA doesn't mean a writer is talented-- and it doesn't mean a writer is untalented! It's a totally neutral statement. The book that wound up with PA might never have been published elsewhere, or it might have been published by Simon & Schuster if the author had held out... we don't really know.

-What they need more than anything is real guidance. How can they get out of the contracts? If they choose to stick with PA, what are their best options? What do they need to know next time they look for a publisher?

-Many are torn about our fight because of what Trapped (I think) said earlier-- if PA goes under, what happens to the authors? Will their rights automatically revert?

-Some of them have been fed the company lines so strongly that you literally have to look at it as if they've been brainwashed. They get that acceptance letter-- hooray!-- then they go onto the boards and people warn them that we're sharks out to get them and we want to see them fail. The PA cheerleaders pump them up and promise all sorts of success and reward them with praise. If they come here, they see that yes, indeed, we're attacking the one publisher who "believed in them," and we're laughing at their posts and maybe even their books. If you want to de-program someone, it needs to be done gently and without humiliation. Show them the facts, show them the battle scars, and give them a safe place to come to terms with the new reality.

I encourage all of us to think these things through.

More soon.

Uh Oh...

Hmmmm... people finding insight and value in my posts on a message board...

Is it the End of the World already? I'm so unprepared!

D James

Re: Found an author in New York who will go on camera!

What strikes me when I've looked at the posts on the P.A. board is that I can readily identify in some way with the people there; they could be my mother, my sister, my grandmother (who has discovered writing late in life, but now we know where the rest of us got it from ) or me. Personally, that makes me care about what happens to these people, who I'll never meet, and why I've ended up posting on a thread about a publisher I have no connection with.

PA going under

I think that if PA goes under, it won't be because of the authorities (who, honestly, I don't think will ever pay much attention, because of the absence of cash payments upfront) or the bad press (which will excite some attention but will also soon be forgotten), but because of its own arrogance and greed.

I've said this before, but there's a point with any scam where the scammer just gets too greedy and the balance between exploitation and ignorance is tipped. The literary scams that have gone bust--Commonwealth Publishing, Northwest Publishing, Kelly O'Donnell/Press-Tige, Deering/Sovereign, Woodside Literary Agency, Edit Ink, and Janet Kay--have gone bust because the exploitation got so egregious that even the most innocent victims realized something was wrong. At some point, PA's high handed tactics, its cheapness (especially its desire to keep staff costs down, even in the face of rising author enrollment, which is leading to longer and longer delays between contract signing and publication and seems to be making "Author Support" ever less supportive--not that it ever really was), and its slipshod procedures may trip it up.

But I think it will be a while before that happens, if ever.

- Victoria

Re: Conspiracy beliefs?

All: There is a new media target for December. Please see this thread: p197.ezboard.com/fabsolut...=554.topic

New "Multi Author Signing" Info...

Now it appears that there is some controversy involving the person trying to set up the latest PA multi author signing...

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/6920.htm

If this whole thing is a scam, HB Marcus has yet again made another incredibly bad literary choice. First his agent, then PA, and now this? Wonderful track record....

Re: New "Multi Author Signing" Info...

It's entirely possible that this latest Multi-Author Signing is being organized by a newbie with more enthusiasm than experience, who's improperly set up his/her email program.

The general history of PA promotions is a) authors doing everything they can think of, and b) discovering that it doesn't work.

Re: Jenna, I guess...

very possible... it's funny how the PA authors are eager to jump to attack one of their own as a possible scammer, but don't even flinch at the idea of their publisher doing NOTHING to promote their books.

there's posts about PA refusing to send out review copies; notes on how the author has to send out the press release... even the smallest legitimate publisher puts a catalog together in order to try and sell their product. PublishAmerica not only doesn't have one, it ignores the efforts of their own authors to do so.

of course, that would entail not only having a competent staff, but also the concept of selling books to anyone outside of the author and his/her friends and family...

Re: What's so sad about all this is...

I have been reading these messages and have decided to join in the discussion. I have some points though that I would like to talk about. You say you are not against the authors, yet you have to know that going against the publisher is going against the authors also. You do not seem to be able to do your stuff without pointing your finger at some of the authors on the message boards; you have to copy and paste messages, and then are critical of everything they are all doing. The one's who started this mess should have gone through channels instead of going public slandering everyone and running over anyone who got in the way. You all make everyone look bad, there are no milestones for any of the authors as far as you all are concerned.

I have concluded that the reason no big guns will come to your aide to do something is that you cannot prove anything.

You feel sad for the authors. Give me a break.