In need of advice

zerosystem said:

Hi, all. I've written a YA mystery manuscript that I had hoped to query within the next month or two. As I researched how I should approach writing queries, an invaluable asset that was brought up before sending one was having an 'author platform.' Well, I have no connections, a website, or hundreds of followers on Twitter or Facebook. Never even used Instagram.

I have a fantasy novel that I am in the early stages of planning, and am considering posting it onto Wattpad. But with the long hours I have been pulling at work lately, it will take a while before I am able to release anything, especially since I am still working on the final version of my mystery manuscript.

I'd like to know if an author platform is as crucial as I've heard? Should I finish and query my current manuscript or should I divide my attention in the hopes that the story I post onto Wattpad becomes popular enough that I can use it in my pitch? You guys help will be greatly appreciated.

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It is not. It's meaningless unless you're working in non-fic.

A different story on Wattpad won't help you (and then that will already be published so largely unsaleable).

Just write an effective query and make sure your ms is as polished as can be.

zerosystem said:

Thanks for the quick reply. I had no intention of querying the story I thought about using on Wattpad, so I'm fine on that front.

As for the manuscript, I know it all comes down to the quality of the story. Good stories always get published. However, I keep thinking that if an agent looks at my manuscript and someone else's of equal or even inferior quality, if that someone else has a large following, she/he would prefer to represent someone with an established fanbase over an unknown. Is this a legitimate concern or am I just shooting into the dark?

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That's not how it works in fiction. I mean if we're talking about someone wants to rep your novel or Kylie Jenner's debut novel about someone who's strangled by her own pink lycra, and the agent in question can choose only one of you to take on as a client and cares most about money, she's probably taking Jenner. Outside of that bizarre, unrealistic scenario, it's not how it works.

It's not resumes or college applications, where there are seats to be filled and someone has to fill them. Agents get hundreds of queries a week and they already HAVE clients. If they're going to sign someone, it's going to be someone whose work is something THAT PARTICULAR AGENT cannot pass up, because it's so brilliant, or speaks to something specific, or is written in such a way, that it can't be let go. It's' also got to be something the agent believes will sell -- and by someone the agent believes can keep writing more.

You're looking at it as if agents are putting out want ads and getting a bunch of resumes and looking for 10 people to fill the jobs and will take Bob with the Harvard diploma over Jack with the UVA one.

It's more like agents are people who own an ice cream shop that does well, sells ice cream, has a full freezer and customers, but every day, all day, people come up offering samples of the flavour they just concocted in their home kitchen. Agents will try them, or listen to what's in them, but they have a working shop. If someone comes up with a flavour the agent hasn't heard of, that they can't resist, after a month of people with good, bad, weird, great flavours, that person might get them to shove the tubs over a little tighter.

Also no, good stories don't always get published. Right ice cream shop, right time, right ice cream customers passing by who are hungry.

Where does the idea of 'platform' for fiction authors come from? Not blaming you, OP--just curious.

I can see misreading an agent who reps primarily NF who's got a lot about platform on his or her sub guidelines. There are a couple agencies I can think of where it's less than clear. But generally most of them go out of their way to say platform doesn't matter for fiction.

To extend cornflake's Kylie Jenner riff, it's also that if the agent only takes on that first book, and it tanks (as many first books do), the agent isn't making all that much. Debut fiction advances are usually pretty low; the agent's getting a few thousand as her 15%, but that's not enough to work on. Most agents take years to become self-sufficient in their careers. It takes multiple authors selling well on a kind of rotation--or getting extraordinarily lucky.

VeryBigBeard said:

Where does the idea of 'platform' for fiction authors come from? Not blaming you, OP--just curious.

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It's a bit circular, I think - I have often read that kind of info on blogs of new writers. They hunt up blogs of other new writers who have heard that you need to create a platform (easiest way? Blogging) and there you have it. Misinformation gets stronger by repetition.

It's not always misinformation as in misunderstanding what an agent might want because the information is 2nd, 3rd, 10th hand, though. I've been to conferences where agents were pushing the idea of platform to fiction authors, and giving ridiculous numbers like "you should aim for at least 50,000 Twitter followers to start." It was a disheartening punch in the gut until I realized I didn't want to query them anyway because I want an agent who wants me to write books, not become a social media superstar.

Then at a different conference, I met with a rock star agent from a HUGE reputable agency who looked at my FB author page and said my "paltry" 500 organically obtained followers was perfect and my content was spot on, and to keep doing exactly what I'm doing, and when I told her I dumped Twitter she said it didn't matter at all. She also didn't care that I don't even have Instagram. (My target market is mostly on FB, so she said I was correct to use my social media energy there.) (The disheartening punch in the gut there is that she doesn't rep my genre. LOL)

I also look at how some of my favorite authors handle social media. They're not posting 24/7, presumably because they're busy writing books and not social media posts.

and by someone the agent believes can keep writing more.

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This. Agents want to please their other clients too -- publishers. They want a writer who is easy to work with, amenable to direction, who will get the work out on time, who will produce more if asked to.

Carrie in PA said:

It's not always misinformation as in misunderstanding what an agent might want because the information is 2nd, 3rd, 10th hand, though. I've been to conferences where agents were pushing the idea of platform to fiction authors, and giving ridiculous numbers like "you should aim for at least 50,000 Twitter followers to start." It was a disheartening punch in the gut until I realized I didn't want to query them anyway because I want an agent who wants me to write books, not become a social media superstar.

Then at a different conference, I met with a rock star agent from a HUGE reputable agency who looked at my FB author page and said my "paltry" 500 organically obtained followers was perfect and my content was spot on, and to keep doing exactly what I'm doing, and when I told her I dumped Twitter she said it didn't matter at all. She also didn't care that I don't even have Instagram. (My target market is mostly on FB, so she said I was correct to use my social media energy there.) (The disheartening punch in the gut there is that she doesn't rep my genre. LOL)

I also look at how some of my favorite authors handle social media. They're not posting 24/7, presumably because they're busy writing books and not social media posts.

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I am very sceptical of agents who do a lot of conferences, to be honest. It's not like it's some black flag--there's lots of very legit conferences with lots of demand and lots of very legit agents do a lot to help prospective authors on that circuit--but there is a subset of agents who spend a LOT of time at conferences and have very, very few sales. At the end of the day, it's the sales that matter.

Ditto social. There are, IMO, a few agents who could do with deleting Twitter themselves. I enjoy researching agents on Twitter and it can be a nice reminder that agents are actual people who love to read, but Twitter's a cesspool and if any agent or author is circling that particular drain, it's going to do more harm than good. There are lots of people--readers, even--who don't tweet much but see an account with 27K tweets, 26,450 of which are flaming pinwheels of anger, and they think, "ew."

As always, this post is a great touchstone: https://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?241431-How-to-promote-your-book-like-an-intelligent-human-being-and-not-an-SEO-Dweeb

I'd guess the crossover between agents recommending fiction writers have 50K followers and agents who don't sell very many books is pretty significant.

To the OP: For any agent, research their list. Are they placing debuts? Are they regularly placing books at Big 5 houses? That's what matters first, second, and third.

I will be a tiny bit of a devil’s advocate and say that, in YA specifically, I’ve seen a lot of big deals go to Twitter stars who weren’t agented until they built their popular Twitter personas. This is all anecdotal, and I suspect those people are a small percentage of those selling books, but a following can matter in YA. YouTube stars have gotten huge fiction deals, too.

The big but: I think this only works for people who are already thriving on social media because they love it (not me!). If you’re forcing yourself to post, it’s probably not for you, and in my experience, it’s not necessary. You can absolutely get a YA deal without a platform; I did (unless you count being a film critic on the Tomatometer; I don’t think I bothered to mention that in my queries, because who cares?). It’s not easy to get a deal period, for all the reasons Cornflake detailed, but that’s unlikely to be the deciding factor. My publisher has never expressed any interest in my social media presence, told me to up it, or anything like that. If they post about me, they’ll tag me, but that’s it. Unless you already happen to be an influencer, it’s all about the books you write.

As far as I can tell on twitter, the writing community is endless follow for a follow threads, so big lists certainly don't mean you have loads of people desperate to buy your books. I would be very surprised if agents don't realise this.

Of course, huge instagrammers/youtubers/tweeters/fbrs are going to get deals, just like celebs do, because they basically are celebs. Very few of those that try will reach their level of social media fame, and I doubt any decent agent thinks it's easily achievable.

pingle said:

As far as I can tell on twitter, the writing community is endless follow for a follow threads, so big lists certainly don't mean you have loads of people desperate to buy your books. I would be very surprised if agents don't realise this.

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Yeah, for 95-99% of us, social media doesn't move the sales needle in any relevant way. Readers will often expect you to have a social media presence (just like you'd expect a company to have a web page), but they're likely to seek you out because they already know who you are.

Speaking for myself: I've made a handful of sales off social media, and it's allowed me to get to know some of my readers, which is lovely. It's also connected me with other authors at all stages of the game, and that's really valuable.

But truthfully, there's no reason to do it unless it's fun for you.

VeryBigBeard said:

I am very sceptical of agents who do a lot of conferences, to be honest. It's not like it's some black flag--there's lots of very legit conferences with lots of demand and lots of very legit agents do a lot to help prospective authors on that circuit--but there is a subset of agents who spend a LOT of time at conferences and have very, very few sales. At the end of the day, it's the sales that matter.

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I agree that some agents seem to spend more time at conferences than selling their clients' books, but I don't think being at a conference at all is a problem. I've spoken to many wonderful agents at conferences who attend them because they hope it will help writers become better informed, and therefore it might cut down on the inappropriate submissions they receive--and up the quality of the good ones.

Ditto social. There are, IMO, a few agents who could do with deleting Twitter themselves. I enjoy researching agents on Twitter and it can be a nice reminder that agents are actual people who love to read, but Twitter's a cesspool and if any agent or author is circling that particular drain, it's going to do more harm than good. There are lots of people--readers, even--who don't tweet much but see an account with 27K tweets, 26,450 of which are flaming pinwheels of anger, and they think, "ew."

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Again, Twitter can be a red flag--but I've met several agents on Twitter who are now friends. One agent in particular who I met there became a very good friend, to the extent that I would stay with her when I went to London. I learned so much from her. And it's possible to remain in a positive, informing loop on Twitter if you're ruthless about blocking and ignoring some people.

Old Hack said:

Again, Twitter can be a red flag--but I've met several agents on Twitter who are now friends. One agent in particular who I met there became a very good friend, to the extent that I would stay with her when I went to London. I learned so much from her. And it's possible to remain in a positive, informing loop on Twitter if you're ruthless about blocking and ignoring some people.

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There are also agents who are professional and author-positive on Twitter, but less so in real life. These days, any agent who pays attention should know how to talk a good game on Twitter.

Which is only to say that a Twitter presence doesn't really tell you anything useful about an agent, unless they're really awful there (because they should know better). Plenty of people are active in social media because they genuinely enjoy it. I wouldn't choose an agent based entirely on their Twitter feed, but neither would I see engagement there as a red flag.

From what I can tell it isn't the norm or the majority, but I have recently seen a few agents reference wanting to see platform even from queriers of fiction. Those agents aren't for me.

There've also been a couple of agents I've determined wouldn't be for me to query based on tweets--things not referenced on their agency websites--and others I might not query had I not seen their posts on Twitter. IOW, social media can be a helpful tool like any other, for queriers, agents, and editors.

In my limited experience, the people saying that all this platform stuff is critical are people who want you to do their work for them- namely publishers who won't do any marketing themselves.

mafiaking1936 said:

In my limited experience, the people saying that all this platform stuff is critical are people who want you to do their work for them- namely publishers who won't do any marketing themselves.

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Yeah, it's weird, because as I mentioned above social media doesn't really help in a vacuum.

The flip side of this is that if your publisher's marketing plan relies heavily on social media platforms, maybe be worried.

mccardey said:

Misinformation gets stronger by repetition.

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This is a very applicable truth that transcends writing.

For further clarity:

The drain is found at the bottom of the Twitter cesspool. A quite happy existence can be found by skimming the nutritious algae off the top. Sink too low, and all you find is mud and madness.

i.e., it's not an absolute. The only absolute is to do the research.

cornflake said:

Kylie Jenner's debut novel about someone who's strangled by her own pink lycra

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Is it wrong that I kinda really want to read this book?

OP, like people have said, for fiction, not having a fanbase won't harm your chances of getting published. For nonfic, then yes, it would hinder your chances.

Putputt said:

OP, like people have said, for fiction, not having a fanbase won't harm your chances of getting published. For nonfic, then yes, it would hinder your chances.

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I think the sad thing is that the kind of social media fan base that would actually help your chances is the kind of fan base that belongs to someone who would never ever need to ask the question. It is not the kind of presence you can build up just because you wrote an as yet unpublished book. It's - different numbers. It's like Diana Mitford when someone asked her where she bought her hats and she said "I already have them". You are Diana Mitford with her hats, or you're just someone with hair, yanno?

Some of this probably comes from the few lightning-in-a-bottle writers who managed to build up a fan base and following with their self-published works before transitioning over to traditional publishing.

Otherwise, if you're not even a published writer yet, exactly what sort of author platform can you possibly have? it smacks of just the newest iteration of 'advice all authors need to follow that does not involve actually writing,' that has been around forever.

mccardey said:

I think the sad thing is that the kind of social media fan base that would actually help your chances is the kind of fan base that belongs to someone who would never ever need to ask the question. It is not the kind of presence you can build up just because you wrote an as yet unpublished book. It's - different numbers. It's like Diana Mitford when someone asked her where she bought her hats and she said "I already have them". You are Diana Mitford with her hats, or you're just someone with hair, yanno?

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100% agreed. I see a lot of "Let's all follow each other so we have lots of followers" posts from writers on Twitter and I'm pretty sure it's not helping their chances any more than just working on their manuscripts. The only thing I've ever been asked by agents and editors is "Are you on social media?" because they want you to be moderately available to readers and networking. Of course having a massive following is great, but it's not expected.