Oh you and your momentary desires, says the Vatican

Larry M

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TBH I get that, after a fashion. If it's the fallible humans at fault and not the Church itself, you're not going to leave the Church. Which is of course what the monsters count on.

True. Even if my Catholic aunts (and probably many, many others) thought they could do something about the scandals, they likely wouldn't. They fear the power of the church.
 

BenPanced

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What I wrestle with is, at what point does a person's explicit support for an organization, a political party, a belief system, etc become the same as supporting what they do, both good and bad?

Many conservatives who support Trump will say, "but I'm not racist." Yeah, but you support a man who very explicitly is. Doesn't that racist brush tar you as well?

Many Catholics will say, "but I don't hate LGBTQ people." Yeah, but you support a religion that very explicitly does. I have the same question.

And I understand the people who say they want to be part of an organization/party/religion and change it from within. That's an admirable goal. But, I'm unaware of how lay Catholics can in any way influence what the Vatican says or does, on issues like this.

When I moved to Milwaukee, somebody brought up the possibility of my attending services sponsored by Dignity, the organization for QUILTBAG Catholics. I'd left the church about 10-15 years before this and the thought of going back hadn't even crossed my mind in the slightest. I had to tell him I wasn't interested because going back would mean I'd only have to start kissing the pope's ass again and I certainly wasn't about to do so (never mind I no longer believed in anything the church had tried to teach me).
 

frimble3

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When I moved to Milwaukee, somebody brought up the possibility of my attending services sponsored by Dignity, the organization for QUILTBAG Catholics. I'd left the church about 10-15 years before this and the thought of going back hadn't even crossed my mind in the slightest. I had to tell him I wasn't interested because going back would mean I'd only have to start kissing the pope's ass again and I certainly wasn't about to do so (never mind I no longer believed in anything the church had tried to teach me).
But there are some people who seem to feel that anyone not in a church is pining to join. Always their denomination, of course.
And maybe there are people who are pining. But I've never felt the need, and, God knows where I live, there's a nice bush out front he can burn if he feels the need to get my attention.
 

frimble3

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It's something about not lying with a man as you lie with a woman, right? If you consider a different usage of the word 'as', to mean 'while' - in the sentence 'I was listening to the radio as I drove to work', for example - you can read that sentence as being against MMF threesomes, rather than homosexuality.

ETA: not that there's anything wrong with threesomes either, but it's fun to play with words and it's also fun to wind up the homophobic tosspots who believe all this bollocks.
Yes, it's all in the interpretation. :evil It could also be a reminder to not tell the same stories to your buddies as you do to your wife.
 

frimble3

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No - the Hail Mary is basically a meditation. It's a short form of prayer (7 lines) that acknowledges the Mother of Jesus, and by definition focuses on both the concept of Virgin Birth and the intersessionary powers of Mary.

Again, no - confession, repentance and if possible making restitution are not the same as saying the rosary (or saying an individual Hail Mary) - although in my day, a Hail Mary or three were often given as a token penance.

Can any current Catholics tell me if Confession is still done? I think it's called something different now and it might have a different form.
Bolded word: a rosary is a cycle of prayers, or the loop of prayer beads that is used to keep track of them.
 

MaeZe

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Off topic question, but I've always wondered - what is with that saying Hail Marys thing? Is it literally just saying "Hail Mary" the prescribed number of times? And that gets you straight with God? The supreme leader and all powerful creator of the universe is mollified by you muttering a certain phrase a few times?
Adding to what's been said:

You get assigned to repeat the Hail Mary prayer a certain number of times by the priest when you confess depending on how much repenting the priest thinks you need. I think of it as akin to writing on a chalkboard 100 times "I will not chew gum in class." Catholics are very much into rituals.

Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

Newer version:

Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with you.
Blessed are you among women,
and blessed is the fruit of your womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
 
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Roxxsmom

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It said the idea of gender being determined by personal feeling rather than biology was an attempt to "annihilate nature".

They really said "annihilate nature." Unbefuckingleevable.

The human race is in the process of annihilating nature because there are too many people consuming too many resources, and the human population is still climbing. Yet the Vatican persists in attempting to oppress people whose sexual identity and/or orientation may possibly make them less likely to pop out a bunch of kids.

They're farting into the wind as far as I (and other non Catholics) are concerned, but the sad thing is their message will contribute to the pain of more LGBQT kids who are growing up in Catholic families and are trying to reconcile their identities with their faith. It will also cause at least some parents and family members of these kids to attempt to force them to be "straight," which doesn't work and which can cause enormous harm.

If the Church wants to save nature, why don't they declare consumption of fossil fuels, or meat eating, or using plastic to be sins?
 

MaeZe

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But there are some people who seem to feel that anyone not in a church is pining to join. Always their denomination, of course.
And maybe there are people who are pining. But I've never felt the need, and, God knows where I live, there's a nice bush out front he can burn if he feels the need to get my attention.

I have some atheist friends who miss the camaraderie of the church. They go to a Humanist Church. Some people who grew up with a church but rejected god beliefs as adults miss the church.

Others of us don't think a church has anything to offer that can't be found elsewhere.
 

MaeZe

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...

If the Church wants to save nature, why don't they declare consumption of fossil fuels, or meat eating, or using plastic to be sins?
Back to my framing obsession: to convince people claiming God wouldn't let humans ruin his creation (Earth) I encourage people to remind them God made humans stewards of the Earth.

Not that it is a magical argument but it at least counters the Jerry Falwells (Moral Majority) and James Dobsons (Focus on the Family) propaganda.

It should be pointed out, the Evangelicals have their share of intolerance and sexual abuse within the church.
 

mccardey

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Yes, it's still required, and it's recognizably similar to the earlier forms.
Thank you. A friend told me it's there, but it's no longer mandatory for Sunday communion (and they call it reconciliation, now.) One of the horrors of being a kidlet in the 60s was that if you didn't confess your sins (like if they were REALLY BAD) then you couldn't go up for Communion - which meant the whole church knew that you'd don't something REALLY BAD.

I, of course, never did anything bad enough to skip Confession over, :2angel:but if I had I would have taken it up with Jesus at prayer-time - because I really did believe Jesus was a personal though invisible friend of mine, and he could fix things like that with his Dad. In my little mind, he and his Mum were constantly fixing things for me - which was more than usually necessary in my abusive and chaotic childhood home
 

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Adding to what's been said:

You get assigned to repeat the Hail Mary prayer a certain number of times by the priest when you confess depending on how much repenting the priest thinks you need. I think of it as akin to writing on a chalkboard 100 times "I will not chew gum in class." Catholics are very much into rituals.


For those who are curious, this is essentially lifted from the Annunciation, when the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary to tell her she was miraculously pregnant with Christ (Luke 1:26–38).

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
 

mccardey

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True. Even if my Catholic aunts (and probably many, many others) thought they could do something about the scandals, they likely wouldn't. They fear the power of the church.

What do they fear exactly? Burning in hell, or ostracism by their community?
 

BenPanced

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What do they fear exactly? Burning in hell, or ostracism by their community?

Yes and yes. Currently, many churches will not allow their members to accept the sacrament of Holy Communion if they support anything the church doesn't. Many can and will turn away members who vote for the wrong candidates or espouse ideas the church condemns; in Minnesota, there was a church that made headlines because they didn't allow members who support LGBTQI+ rights to take Communion, as evidenced by the people who wore rainbow flag pins or lapel stickers on a particular Sunday. Others have publicly announced that the Catholic politicians in their parishes who support abortion rights for women can't take the sacrament, either. The reach is that deep and that strong in many churches across the world.
 

mccardey

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Yes and yes. Currently, many churches will not allow their members to accept the sacrament of Holy Communion if they support anything the church doesn't. Many can and will turn away members who vote for the wrong candidates or espouse ideas the church condemns; in Minnesota, there was a church that made headlines because they didn't allow members who support LGBTQI+ rights to take Communion, as evidenced by the people who wore rainbow flag pins or lapel stickers on a particular Sunday. Others have publicly announced that the Catholic politicians in their parishes who support abortion rights for women can't take the sacrament, either. The reach is that deep and that strong in many churches across the world.
I'm getting a real sense that the Catholic Church in Australia has been significantly less doctrinaire than in some other places - although it seems to be tightening up quite a bit at the moment.
 

lizmonster

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I'm getting a real sense that the Catholic Church in Australia has been significantly less doctrinaire than in some other places - although it seems to be tightening up quite a bit at the moment.

I think organized religion in general tends to be more doctrinal in countries where they can (or perceive they can) wield political power. Like now, in the US, despite our Constitution.
 

mccardey

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I think organized religion in general tends to be more doctrinal in countries where they can (or perceive they can) wield political power. Like now, in the US, despite our Constitution.
Our politics are getting a much more overtly Christian tone just atm. And not in a good way.

I will burn for you,” Morrison promised in his election-eve pitch to undecided voters. At the time the phrase provoked snide asides about his coal evangelism.The sneerers might be feeling chastened that vulnerable mining communities in north Queensland and the Hunter Valley trusted the Coalition, and not Labor, to protect their livelihoods.

As I didn’t know “burn for you” was a phrase used by Pentecostal Christians to denote strenuous service for Christ, I wondered why Morrison was quoting the lyrics of a 1980s INXS song. My ear was not attuned to his pitch to the faithful.

And the faithful rose up on May 18 to re-elect the Coalition - that’s one narrative gaining traction to explain the shock win.
 
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Marian Perera

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One of the horrors of being a kidlet in the 60s was that if you didn't confess your sins (like if they were REALLY BAD) then you couldn't go up for Communion - which meant the whole church knew that you'd don't something REALLY BAD.

I was about thirteen or fourteen when the nuns at my Catholic school took us to confession and gave us a list of questions we were supposed to ask ourselves beforehand. The questions had to do with all the sins we might be guilty of. One was, "Have I committed the sin of self-abuse?"

In my naivety I thought self-abuse meant hitting yourself. Since I had never hit myself, the question seemed irrelevant and I didn't spend any time searching my conscience about it. I only found out what that really meant years later.
 

Roxxsmom

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It should be pointed out, the Evangelicals have their share of intolerance and sexual abuse within the church.

Oh yes, plenty of intolerance and hypocrisy to go around. I was going to say that evangelical protestant churches have not traditionally forbidden the use of birth control for married couples, at least, but evidently the adoption of the Catholic Church's anti-abortion position is leading some of them to move closer to the Church's position on contraception as well.

https://www.baptiststandard.com/new...-baptist-attitudes-changing-on-birth-control/

In my naivety I thought self-abuse meant hitting yourself. Since I had never hit myself, the question seemed irrelevant and I didn't spend any time searching my conscience about it. I only found out what that really meant years later.

I am wondering if modern teens are more likely to think that term could refer to self cutting than masturbation. The Church needs to be better at defining their terms.
 
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Marian Perera

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I am wondering if modern teens are more likely to think that term could refer to self cutting than masturbation. The Church needs to be better at defining their terms.

Maybe they were concerned that if they used the actual word, that might give teenagers the idea of Doing It.
 

shadowsminder

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"The world is my church." Wasn't that concept canonical for a while? Before The Church determined that to be in opposition to its self-serving goals and moved certain works to the notorious Vault?

Someday soon, I want to read hopepunk about the world's dominant religions taking an official stance that the suffering planet should be healed as if it were an ill family member (because in this world, people give medical care, not only prayers, to their ill family members). Perhaps instead, people realize that they've trashed their church and abused the people their lords, saviors, and prophets would have (or should have) helped by showing kindness and respect. Either way, we could dream of a better alternate reality than what we have.
 

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"The world is my church." Wasn't that concept canonical for a while? Before The Church determined that to be in opposition to its self-serving goals and moved certain works to the notorious Vault?.

This is hovering over the precipice of not respecting fellow writers.

Don't do this.
 

shadowsminder

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Thank you for the wording. The societal forces that led us to treat our planet, local environments, and each other the way humans have is where I was directing my anger. I was not thinking of any particular members of this site, who aa far as I am aware, were never responsible for religious canon.

I'm not sure exactly where the line is, so I'll avoid this thread.
 

MaeZe

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It's not just believing it better to keep sex secret, many of those people want the risk of HIV, STDs and pregnancy believing fear will keep the kids abstinent. And even when the data shows abstinence-only education doesn't work, they move on to calling the risks God's punishment. God willed that HIV on you. :rant: