YA themes in Middle Grade Books

MS KIKI

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Some educators and parents might be uncomfortable discussing such a "sophisticated" book with 8-12 yr olds. No statistical support just personal experience.

And some educators and teachers might embrace discussing such "sophisticated" books with 8-12 yr olds. For sure.

It's good to have a discussion where different ideas are bandied, isn't it. Diversity of ideas is a good thing.
 

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Some educators and parents might be uncomfortable discussing such a "sophisticated" book with 8-12 yr olds. No statistical support just personal experience.

And some educators and teachers might embrace discussing such "sophisticated" books with 8-12 yr olds. For sure.

It's good to have a discussion where different ideas are bandied, isn't it. Diversity of ideas is a good thing.

What does "sophisticated" mean to you? You have it in quotes. Are you using it in a way that nobody else does? Is it a euphemism for something else? And if you really mean what sophisticated actually means, what is it that makes a book sophisticated when, written in the same style and with the same plot, it touches upon LGBTQIA issues (such as the MC's dad has a boyfriend, to use your own example)?

We can't have a discussion when you won't even answer the simplest of questions about what you're saying. Multiple people have asked you these questions. Time to clarify.

What does it mean to you that some parents/educators are uncomfortable and others aren't? If you accept those as both being true, what is your point?
 
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MS KIKI

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What does it mean to you that some parents/educators are uncomfortable and others aren't? If you accept those as both being true, what is your point?

My point is to open up discussion. And it has.
 

cornflake

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My point is to open up discussion. And it has.

Is it discussion if you don't engage with anyone and just keep repeating everyone has their own opinions?
 

MS KIKI

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We are all smart people here and certainly know that "sophisticated" refers to complicated or adult themes.

So now that has been defined, would you as a parent or educator be comfortable with discussing these themes with an 8-12 yr old child ? Maybe you'd be ok with 12 yr olds reading books like this and not 8 yr olds? Would it matter to you? What has your own experience been?
 

hester

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Harriet the Spy and The Long Secret (both of which were written in the seventies) include themes of parent/child alienation, divorce, and extramarital affairs. In other words, a reflection of the world the middle-grade MC occupied and observed.

I'm not sure if you're equating "sophisticated" with inclusion of topical issues, but it's a stretch in any case. As pointed out by prior posters, inclusion of same-sex parental relationships is not "sophisticated" any more than inclusion of a divorce reference, or a reference to a parent's second marriage.
 
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RedRajah

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And which themes do you feel are complicated or adult? Because you haven't defined it -- at all. Calling them either complicated or adult is still too vague (at best) -- or very weaselish (more cynical).
 

cornflake

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We are all smart people here and certainly know that "sophisticated" refers to complicated or adult themes.

So now that has been defined, would you as a parent or educator be comfortable with discussing these themes with an 8-12 yr old child ? Maybe you'd be ok with 12 yr olds reading books like this and not 8 yr olds? Would it matter to you? What has your own experience been?

Again, how is having two men or two women be a character's parents (or one man, or one woman, or a grandparent), complicated or adult, in any way? If it is, then having a man and a woman as parents is as well, no?

Would I be comfortable discussing that a kid in a book has same-sex parents? Uh, yes? I might worry my kid was a little daft if we had to have a whole discussion about families by the age of 8 -- and I'd DEFINITELY think she needed to get out more, or, I dunno, look around?
 

eqb

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We are all smart people here and certainly know that "sophisticated" refers to complicated or adult themes.

So now that has been defined, would you as a parent or educator be comfortable with discussing these themes with an 8-12 yr old child ? Maybe you'd be ok with 12 yr olds reading books like this and not 8 yr olds? Would it matter to you? What has your own experience been?

Why do you believe gay parents are more complicated than heterosexual parents?

This sounds pretty homophobic to me.
 
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MS KIKI

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And which themes do you feel are complicated or adult? Because you haven't defined it -- at all. Calling them either complicated or adult is still too vague (at best) -- or very weaselish (more cynical).

Yes, I've given an example of a complicated theme -- some stories are getting into the I-don't-like-my daddy's-boyfriend area. Perhaps you missed that earlier post.
 

cornflake

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Yes, I've given an example of a complicated theme -- some stories are getting into the I-don't-like-my daddy's-boyfriend area. Perhaps you missed that earlier post.

Is that more complicated than 'I don't like my mother's bf?'

Again, I think Ramona worrying about her family finances after her dad lost his job is pretty complicated, and that was like 40 years ago.
 

owlion

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We are all smart people here and certainly know that "sophisticated" refers to complicated or adult themes.

So now that has been defined, would you as a parent or educator be comfortable with discussing these themes with an 8-12 yr old child ? Maybe you'd be ok with 12 yr olds reading books like this and not 8 yr olds? Would it matter to you? What has your own experience been?
I didn't know that was the intended use of 'sophisticated' here (especially when it was written in quote marks), but thanks for clarifying.

There are plenty of children's books with complex, real-world topics. One of the biggest authors in my school library was Jacqueline Wilson, who wrote about care homes, divorce, mental illness and so on.
 

MS KIKI

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Why do you believe gay parents are more complicated than heterosexual parents?

This sounds pretty homophobic to me.

Oh, you don't know me. Don't go there. I'm open minded about a lot of things. And, yes, I think a non-traditional family (gay parents) can be confusing to some younger children who are in a heterosexual family. So books featuring some of these situations are probably best suited for an older child who has learned a bit more about diversity.

There are movie ratings advising what is suitable for any group...G, R, X. Maybe you don't agree with those? :Shrug:
 

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Tamora Pierce's MG series Circle of Magic includes themes of abandonment, war, poverty, and class issues. Oh, and two of the mentors are women who love each other. Pub dates in the late 90s.
 

MS KIKI

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There are plenty of children's books with complex, real-world topics. One of the biggest authors in my school library was Jacqueline Wilson, who wrote about care homes, divorce, mental illness and so on.

Those are certainly appropriate themes for 8-12. It all depends how the authors write about them. An 8 yr old can definitely relate to care homes, divorce and mental illness. IMO :Thumbs:
 

owlion

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Those are certainly appropriate themes for 8-12. It all depends how the authors write about them. An 8 yr old can definitely relate to care homes, divorce and mental illness. IMO :Thumbs:
But not all kids have experience with those. You said it would be hard for kids with heterosexual parents to relate to stories with gay parents, but many, many kids don't go through any of the issues in Jacqueline Wilson books and they're still extremely popular. So why are books about gay parents any different?
 

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My point is to open up discussion. And it has.


No. Actually, it hasn't. It's frustrated good intentioned people responding to your original post.

I bit like concern trolling especially as regards social issues, your inability or unwillingness to define your "sophisticated", and your condescending approach to accepting others' opinions.

Make your point clearly, with examples if you want the discussion to continue.
Otherwise I'm locking it.

Clear?

- - - Updated - - -
 

cornflake

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Oh, you don't know me. Don't go there. I'm open minded about a lot of things. And, yes, I think a non-traditional family (gay parents) can be confusing to some younger children who are in a heterosexual family. So books featuring some of these situations are probably best suited for an older child who has learned a bit more about diversity.

There are movie ratings advising what is suitable for any group...G, R, X. Maybe you don't agree with those? :Shrug:

The MPAA is a complete joke, and personally I pay zero attention to ratings -- didn't pay any mind when I was a kid, don't now.

Wouldn't heterosexual parents be confusing to younger children growing up with same-sex parents?

It's like a two-sentence "discussion" that most people have with toddlers --

People are all different. Some people can walk, some use wheelchairs, some have two legs, or whatever, some don't, some can hear or see, some can't, some are tall, some are short, some are small, some are bigger, some have skin the same shade as yours, some have different, some people have parents like yours, some people have two growups as parents, or a man and a woman, or two women or two men, but people are people and it's what you do and how you act that matters.
 

Stew21

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Oh, you don't know me. Don't go there. I'm open minded about a lot of things. And, yes, I think a non-traditional family (gay parents) can be confusing to some younger children who are in a heterosexual family. So books featuring some of these situations are probably best suited for an older child who has learned a bit more about diversity.

Maybe including these things in books in a relatable and real-life way will ease the confusion. Maybe seeing these kinds of characters in print will teach inclusion.
It is not too complicated; at least not for the kids I know. You suggest it is a "theme" but I disagree that it has to be a theme. Can't it just be a reflection of true life?
The way children understand "family" isn't defined by gay/straight parents. Love is love. Isn't Love an overarching excellent point to make in MG books? Inclusion and diversity are too.
I feel like you might be equating same sex relationships/parents with a discussion about sexuality. If that's the case, then I don't think you actually understand how children feel about living in a loving home regardless of their parents' sexuality.

Bottom line though, if you don't like including same sex couples in your stories, then don't write them.

It's not some big indication of MG books changing "sophistication" or maturity of topics across the genre. It's that maybe the genre is becoming appropriately diverse and inclusive. It should be celebrated that children can see their lives reflected in demographics of fiction.
 
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Those are certainly appropriate themes for 8-12. It all depends how the authors write about them. An 8 yr old can definitely relate to care homes, divorce and mental illness. IMO :Thumbs:

Oddly kids with same-sex parents are expected to relate to heterosexual parents (as well as care homes, divorce and mental illness)*

Go figure!

*The serial comma is often a good friend, unless you actually meant to conflate divorce and mental illness.
 

frimble3

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Lots of things are confusing to younger children who have no experience of them.
Heck, I didn't see a live horse or cow until I was 8 or 9.
What better way to introduce them to things outside their experience than in a book? A book where they can ask questions if something puzzles them, or associate it with something they do know.
And if the adults around the child act 'funny' about something, the child swiftly learns to keep their questions to themselves.

Weirdly, when I was a kid, I didn't know anyone 'in life' who was divorced. It was something that only happened on TV. But I knew a gay guy, at second hand. He was a friend of my parents, who worked on a ship, and came to visit when he was in town. We must have asked Mum if he had a family, and (I've forgotten the exact words) but she said something about him having a boyfriend and not a girlfriend, so no marriage. (It was small-town 60's.) We must have shrugged and went back to what we were doing, because I don't remember follow-up questions.

In general, I think most children are only 'interested' in adult stuff if adults make a big fuss about it.

Once I was old enough to read on my own, (pre-first grade) my parents didn't monitor what I read.