Robotics & Artificial Intelligence: Team Zuckerberg or Team Musk?

Sarahani said:

Unknown agents with great discovery

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Sarahani said:

Henri Becqurel discovered Radioactivity. Becquerel was a physicist, from a family of physicists.

Alexander Fleming serendipitously discovered penicillin. Fleming was researching staphyloccocus.

Penzias & Wilson were cleaning poop on their radio before discovering the Cosmic Microwave Background. Radio astronomers working on radio telescopes; also the CMBR had been predicted before they recorded it.

Alexander Friedmann, was a random Russian mathematician when he decided to double check Einstein's Special relativity (such audacity) and discovered that the Universe was in expansion. So he was a mathematician, not a plumber?

Well, Einstein himself at 25/26 was somewhat of a teacher in Switzerland when he published his theory in 1905. Dude had a PhD in physics, worked as a patent clerk, got together with a bunch of other graduates. Also have a read up on the contributions of his first wife, Mileva Maric.

Srinivasa Ramanujan was a poor indian dude with no formal formation in Mathematics (no college, no news, and I presume he had a shitty job) and is probably considered the greatest mathematician since Newton. Haven't heard of him. Can't comment.

Charles Darwin theorized the natural selection as a completely unknown naturalist/biologist. He published his book 20 years after having written it. He actually was mocked and ridiculed. Except that Darwin studied at Cambridge and was the naturalist on board HMS Beagle, so he had some reputation. He also published a tonne of work before 1859, including a seminal study on the origin of coral atolls. Maybe you should have picked Alfred Russel Wallace, who came up with the idea of evolution by natural selection at the same time. He, at least, was self-taught.

Stephen Hawking was a still a student when reading the theory of Roger Penrose he developed the Big Bang Singularity. He was a PhD student.

Marie Curie was a woman... enough said. What. The. Hell?

Do you need more names? Nah. You've already established that specialists working in specialised areas come up with ideas. Cheers.

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Sarahani said:

I am somewhat naïve to think that people will understand me and the need of explanation would not be required. Here we go (sigh).

1) No you're not meant to be nice to Mark Zuckerberg. He's a billionaire who doesn't care about you, me and anybody in this thread which I started yesterday about Robotics and AI. I was just being humorous.
But the reasoning behind it is correct. Ad hominem means that you attack someone based on who the person is or what he does instead of attacking his argument, what he said.
And you wrote: "I can't take Zuckerberg's thoughts on anything of import seriously. Musk has at least done things."
You then imply that Zuckerberg has done nothing and that's one of the reason why you can't take his thoughts seriously. You're not contradicting his words but attacking what he's done... or rather what you consider he hasn't done. Yes I confirm, ad hominem attack.

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2) Because Robotics and AI are a forthcoming industrial revolution, it's not here yet. Which means that all people are saying about sentient robot, the danger and else are technically just speculation. It's like Michio Kaku's books, they are deeply entertaining, probable to happen but highly speculative. So Kevin's speculation and Elon Musk's speculation are statistically identical since none of them are experts... yet. FYI, going to college has long been an outdated metric to measure intelligence, success and the ability to be right in a topic. You'll be surprise to know how many high school/college dropout, not following any type of news and working in supermarket read books and develop some type of expertise in random area... I met a homeless guy who literally speak 7 languages fluently and a plumber who's fascinated by quantum mathematics. I know I have weird acquaintances.

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Unknown agents with great discovery: Henri Becqurel discovered Radioactivity
Alexander Fleming serendipitously discovered penicillin.
Penzias & Wilson were cleaning poop on their radio before discovering the Cosmic Microwave Background
Alexander Friedmann, was a random Russian mathematician when he decided to double check Einstein's Special relativity (such audacity) and discovered that the Universe was in expansion.
Well, Einstein himself at 25/26 was somewhat of a teacher in Switzerland when he published his theory in 1905
Srinivasa Ramanujan was a poor indian dude with no formal formation in Mathematics (no college, no news, and I presume he had a shitty job) and is probably considered the greatest mathematician since Newton.
Charles Darwin theorized the natural selection as a completely unknown naturalist/biologist. He published his book 20 years after having written it. He actually was mocked and ridiculed.
Stephen Hawking was a still a student when reading the theory of Roger Penrose he developed the Big Bang Singularity.
Marie Curie was a woman... enough said. The HELL does that mean? She wasn't some fucking housewife discovered radium under the sink. She was a working goddamned scientist who'd studied at top universities and worked in high-level labs.
Do you need more names?

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The biggest discoveries in a field tend to come from unknown agents

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There is a difference between being rich and globally known. Yes, Musk's been a billionaire for a while but he was not known to the general public 10 years ago. Tesla and Space X have been around more than a decade... I confirm. But first Musk didn't create the brand Tesla he became a shareholder and eventually the CEO around 10 years ago. And still, in 2008 with the Tesla roadster, nobody cared about the brand since electric cars weren't all that. It was in 2012 with the Tesla Model S which will become the company best selling car that we cared to know about Musk and his story. So it's been 6 years not 5... my bad (humor). Most people (besides the ones interested in aerospace technology) didn't know about Space X before knowing about Tesla. I can almost claim that people still know Musk more because of Tesla than Space X. So I confirm that Elon Musk is globally known for 5-6 years.

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3)Never said he's part of a company that control information. You should reread my claim.

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Sarahani said:

2) Statistically identical means that both of us have the same chances to be right or wrong in a subject.

No....

Football is a very bad analogy since the sport is completely known. Robotics & AI are at their infancy, once again, all of what people are saying are speculation, logical speculation but still speculation. When I was a young boy scientists and other people supposedly expert used to say that car will be flying by 2000. Here we are in 2018! And it was proven that even right now having flying car would be devastating for the environment and our consummation in energy would skyrocket. What they said was logically sound based on their knowledge at the time but based on today's knowledge it doesn't make sense to have flying car. On the same token, our view on robotics and AI is biased and mostly speculative, that's the reason why the debate between the pros and the cons can be so fierce at time. We just don't know. And because we don't know any opinion have the same probability to be right and wrong.

Again, no, the opinion of Kenny the janitor who didn't get past 6th grade and doesn't know anything about AI does not have the same chance of being correct as the opinion of someone involved in AI. Because it's an ongoing concern doesn't mean it's a magical thing that doesn't exist, for which no one has any grounded knowledge. That's... ridiculous. Even in things that don't exist, like, say, zombies, there are people with relevant correlative knowledge whose opinion would be more relevant, valuable, and likely to be correct than Kenny's.

Also -- flying cars are a thing. Lots of them. Uber, Porsche, all these companies.

Helix's response regarding my list proved that I have been misunderstood. Of course in science most of the discoveries are going to be made by scientists, I said unknown agents not incompetent ones. What I meant was an argumentation regarding my comment "what Musk has done is irrelevant". I meant that it doesn't matter if you have done things before, unknown people, unknown agents will still made discovery. The probability that you discover something is not proportional to what you have done before. Being a doctor or a physicist or a mathematician does not make you known. The fact that Henri Bequerel was a physicist from a family of physicist does not make him known, if so it means that my family doctor is known then. So most of the people who made discoveries were competent but were not known because they haven't done anything previously, like Musk has.

Still waiting for ANY backing to these claims.


You reaction toward my comment on Marie Curie definitely proves that we were not on the same wavelength. First, Marie Curie is one my favorite personalities in history (with Hypatia and Jeanne d'Arc), so I would never disrespect her nor any woman for that matter. I wasn't talking about incompetence but about the fact that as one of the rare women in this field she was not known. Marie Curie was not acknowledge, maybe 'acknowledge' is a better word than 'known', until her contribution in physics. The same as everybody I listed above, they were not acknowledge in their field.

That makes no sense. As one of the rare women in the field, yes, she was known. Of course she was known; ffs she was the first female doctoral student -- the first female science prof at the Sorbonne. If you're the only one of your kind, the one who broke the barriers, people know who the hell you are.

Fallacious statistic unless your definition of genius is only related to intellectual work. Since I agree with Howard Gardner's theory of multiple intelligence, the chances to becoming a genius is absolutely not related to a school degree or any type of job an individual is practicing.

What you agree with doesn't have to do with what Helix does.

PS: Why this thread has been moved? I feel homeless now.

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Unknown agents with great discovery: Henri Becqurel discovered Radioactivity
Alexander Fleming serendipitously discovered penicillin.
Penzias & Wilson were cleaning poop on their radio before discovering the Cosmic Microwave Background
Alexander Friedmann, was a random Russian mathematician when he decided to double check Einstein's Special relativity (such audacity) and discovered that the Universe was in expansion.
Well, Einstein himself at 25/26 was somewhat of a teacher in Switzerland when he published his theory in 1905
Srinivasa Ramanujan was a poor indian dude with no formal formation in Mathematics (no college, no news, and I presume he had a shitty job) and is probably considered the greatest mathematician since Newton.
Charles Darwin theorized the natural selection as a completely unknown naturalist/biologist. He published his book 20 years after having written it. He actually was mocked and ridiculed.
Stephen Hawking was a still a student when reading the theory of Roger Penrose he developed the Big Bang Singularity.
Marie Curie was a woman... enough said.
Do you need more names?

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Sarahani said:

I'm just going to stop our interaction on this topic since you're deliberately exaggerating, cherry picking extreme example. Kenny who didn't past 6th grade now? Why not Kenny the mentally deficient? Or Kenny the 6 years old? Or Kenny the cat, why not? Just be serious for a second!
Do you read yourself? Even things that don't exist, some people are more likely to be right than others?? Yes, I should definitely stop here. So you can't be more right than me about 'a Perrot with tentacles with the voice of Abraham Lincoln'?

No flying cars are not a thing. The same as floating car, or flying boat or swimming plane. Don't mix up things there are prototypes of things and mass distribution of things. Experts were saying, speculating that flying car will be popular.

I already gave you a list which was not discredited. To detail their professions and prove that their were specialists was not my point. My point is does any of them was known before the discovery that made them known. None.

Unfortunately in science you're not known because you're a 'minority' in your field. Science is very competitive, you need to produce big results. Here an example, Maryam Mirzakhani. Do you know her? Ask 100 people and tell me how many of them know who she was. She was considered the new Einstein. Unfortunately, despite her contribution in the field of mathematics she is completely unknown to most people. If you want other example, do you know the first female that became a neurosurgeon? Probably not! Neither do I. There are thousands of scientist currently how many of them are known? That's my point with Marie Curie, being there is not enough, you have to make it big. She did and then her name came out.

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Sarahani said:

I'm just going to stop our interaction on this topic since you're deliberately exaggerating, cherry picking extreme example. Kenny who didn't past 6th grade now? Why not Kenny the mentally deficient? Or Kenny the 6 years old? Or Kenny the cat, why not? Just be serious for a second!

You said anyone. Fine, Kenny the GOP senator.

Do you read yourself? Even things that don't exist, some people are more likely to be right than others??

Yes.

Yes, I should definitely stop here. So you can't be more right than me about 'a Perrot with tentacles with the voice of Abraham Lincoln'?

I'm just going to guess you mean parrot and I'd say a parrot with tentacles doesn't seem likely, but I'd think an avian biologist or a biologist who has studied avian and marine life see, would have a much better chance of being right about the likelihood, or not, of that potentiality. Kenny the GOP senator might watch a lot of Walking Dead and think zombies could happen, but a biologist would probably have actual reasons behind his or her estimation of the possibility. Elon Musk, or Paul Allen, who are involved in technology, yes, know more and are more likely to understand where it's going and is likely to get than Kenny.

You've still not given any backing for the claim you made.

No flying cars are not a thing. The same as floating car, or flying boat or swimming plane. Don't mix up things there are prototypes of things and mass distribution of things. Experts were saying, speculating that flying car will be popular.

Uh, did you read that link? Yeah, those are prototypes, made by companies like Airbus, Porsche, backed by Google and flying car-specific concerns. There's investment by Uber; they're all looking at regulations, licensing, distribution.

Also, we've had swimming planes and flying boats for like 100 years ffs.

I already gave you a list which was not discredited. To detail their professions and prove that their were specialists was not my point. My point is does any of them was known before the discovery that made them known. None.

Except first, sure they were, second, again, has nothing to do with your original claim.

Unfortunately in science you're not known because you're a 'minority' in your field. Science is very competitive, you need to produce big results. Here an example, Maryam Mirzakhani. Do you know her? Ask 100 people and tell me how many of them know who she was. She was considered the new Einstein. Unfortunately, despite her contribution in the field of mathematics she is completely unknown to most people. Uh, it was big news when she died, so yeah, a lot of people knew who she was.

If you want other example, do you know the first female that became a neurosurgeon? Probably not! Neither do I. There are thousands of scientist currently how many of them are known? That's my point with Marie Curie, being there is not enough, you have to make it big. She did and then her name came out.

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Helix said:

I have absolutely no idea what your point is -- not least of all because your goalposts seem to be zipping around the place like hyperactive flies -- but floating cars and flying boats are definitely things.

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Sarahani said:

Thanks for telling me about it since I really didn't know that people perceived it that way. The funny thing is that most people think that I am necessarily a man because of they way I express my idea. Never mind.
To be more specific about my line about Marie Curie, what I meant was contrarily to what some people might think, being the first person representing a minority, being a woman in the case Marie Curie is extremely hard. Who doesn't think that?

People are rough and rude, they patronize you and never credit you for what you're doing as long as it's not something big. Hence my point, Marie Curie was certainly not known (people heard vaguely about a woman living in France who a physicist but nothing more. She was a teacher and else but this was surprising but not extraordinary)

Yes, it was extraordinary. She wasn't 'a teacher,' she was a professor at the fucking Sorbonne in the hard sciences.

compare to when she received her first Nobel Prize. With her second she became a legend.
I can use a parallel with the academy awards. The director of Get Out received an Oscar for original screenplay and he is now known but before Get Out and the recognition he was already writing screenplay.

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Sarahani said:

The funny thing is that most people think that I am necessarily a man because of they way I express my idea. Never mind.

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Sarahani said:

I'm just going to stop our interaction on this topic since you're deliberately exaggerating, cherry picking extreme example. Kenny who didn't past 6th grade now? Why not Kenny the mentally deficient? Or Kenny the 6 years old? Or Kenny the cat, why not? Just be serious for a second!
Do you read yourself? Even things that don't exist, some people are more likely to be right than others?? Yes, I should definitely stop here. So you can't be more right than me about 'a Perrot with tentacles with the voice of Abraham Lincoln'?

Click to expand...