The Next Circle of Hell, Vol. 2

spikeman4444 said:

Hello all

Just curious if anyone here ever challenges their agent when it comes to small edits. For instance, maybe a line or word or phrase that they ask you to reword or rephrase to have a different effect? Not a big sweeping edit but a small edit which will make very little difference to the story or manuscript as a whole, but you feel strongly enough not to change it. Do you always change it if the agent asks or do you explain to them why you feel you don't agree and see what their response is?

Just curious.

Happy weekend! Happy subbing! Happy revising and so on!

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I challenged my agent on a couple of small line edits but didn't win, LOL. They were willing to compromise on a larger change though.

Earthling said:

I hang out on another forum full of fantasy writers and I've never seen anyone achieve anything like 8,000 words a day. 800 is good for a lot of people...

Sparverius - eight requests within a day is great! In my experience almost every editor will request if they're pitched by a reputable agent, but lots of fast responses probably mean your agent has good relationships with them... which is good for you!

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I know right, I mean, I wondered onto a twitter thread of people writing - admittedly I think full time as they had nice spouses/had committed to living in cardboard boxes and eating cat food - and there were quotes in the mid-to-high '000s. Scarily if you move into self-pub territory, there are how-to courses on 5K WORDS AN HOUR . Like, 5000 words is chump change for a days worth of this kind of writing. DUUUDE, what kind of quality is that???

I struggle to hit 1K, and I'm writing on the kitchen table with my kid screaming for chicken nuggets every five seconds.

I remember hearing that Michael Crichton (SP? Jurassic Park dude) regularly hit 20K, I doubt his kids interrupted him constantly!!

Sparverius said:

That makes a lot of sense. Good luck with the two hold-outs, they sound promising!

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If your experience is anything remotely similar to what others here have had, you can expect a "flurry" of rejections within the first month. Usually the people who know it's definitely not what they had in mind after all will get back within 2-4 of weeks of getting the book. The ones that are having a much longer, harder think about it will take longer to get back to you. Most people here have already been through that "bust/boom" cycle of getting a bunch of "Nos" pretty fast, then settle in for the occasional decision to trickle in over the weeks and months that follow. Unless you're massively talented and and you immediately end up in a bidding war. That's also happened here.

spikeman4444 said:

Hello all

Just curious if anyone here ever challenges their agent when it comes to small edits. For instance, maybe a line or word or phrase that they ask you to reword or rephrase to have a different effect? Not a big sweeping edit but a small edit which will make very little difference to the story or manuscript as a whole, but you feel strongly enough not to change it. Do you always change it if the agent asks or do you explain to them why you feel you don't agree and see what their response is?

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I made nearly all of the changes suggested by my agent, but there were a few that I didn't want to do and I just made a note in track changes saying why and she was good with it. There were a couple of things we actually got into a back and forth about and it was actually really nice to have someone as invested in the characters as I was and wanting to talk about what they would or wouldn't do.

5000 words an HOUR???? Oh hell no. Honestly a good day for me is 2500 words, 3K is phenomenal, and 5K in a day is when my hands are threatening to fall off. But an hour???????

Thanks for the encouragement, all! (Earthling, this is my Ren Faire romance that I don't shut up about on Twitter.)

Sparverius, welcome and good luck on sub!

s_nov said:

I'm a little late to the discussion, but I was interested in the communication everyone had with agency siblings. I slide into so many Twitter DM's just to be like omgggggg agent buddies! And it hasn't backfired yet!

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I do stalk them, lololol, I'm a little too shy to say HEEEEYYYY, although a heap of people from my last agent/agency contacted me after the big announcement that I had signed with her. I'm still following them on Twitter.

My new one generated no deluge of Twitter writer follows at all! I don't think he has quite as many clients, though the Adult SF/F pool is tiny comparatively (the previous agent repped a lot of YA in all genres, which tends to get a LOT of outgoing people, with the resulting drama, I suppose.)

Jeneral, doing a happy dance for you! Enjoy the edits and hopefully you'll be back on the sub ocean soon, with smooth sailing ahead.

Did some very random writing this week, including pitching some more journalistic stuff. My "on this day" memory from seven years ago was me celebrating getting to 16,000 words in a MS for the first time, and I want to hug past self and say "yay, keep going-- but um, yes, that book sucked, but still, yay!"

Thanks for the good-luck wishes, folks. I really appreciate the support here!

Welcome, ChibiUsagi and Sparverius! Glad you found us!

Chibi - Has your agent said when she might send out your MS (beyond the editors that got it before you signed with her)?

Sparverius - Congrats on the early requests! I heard I got some on the first day, too, but my agent will send me an updated number after the first few weeks. FWIW, the ALA conference is happening in the US at the moment and that could slow things down for editors just a bit.

Lee - So glad your agent meeting went well and that you're feeling hopeful. It's great that you have another book nearing completion. Good work!!

Earthling - Congrats on the novella publication! Way to go! And I'll send you a rep note regarding my book's subject. I feel better staying below the radar here.

Jeneral - I'm SO HAPPY you got such an excellent response from your agent!! I remember those Pitch Wars and pre-PW revision days back in the Daily Rejection thread with a different MS, and to see you hit this one out of the park on the first go is amazing! Go you!!

Spikeman - When it comes to line edits, most of the time my agent leaves the text in question alone and just leaves a comment with a question or suggestion. Sometimes I go with her suggestion, but usually I alter it somewhat to fit my writing style better. When I feel my choice needs an explanation, I leave a comment and we discuss it more or she accepts my reasoning. Our wavelengths align about 95%, so there's rarely any reason to challenge each other. It's more a process of clarifying or building on the beat, and then tweaking for style. It's been an excellent experience, tbh, like having the best kind of critique partner.

RaggedEdge - Thank you!! LMAO yeah, I spent a loooooot of time in TDR with my first book. Probably more time than I should have, but at least it'll always be the book that got me an agent. Honestly, PW was the turning point for me; this new MS went down a LOT cleaner than anything else I've ever written thanks to everything I learned there.

Polishmuse - Sometimes that "on this day" feature needs to STFU, but sometimes it's fun to look back and see that baby writer you were.

My agent hasn't given me notes on a line edit level yet with either of my MSS, but with the notes she's given me she's always stressed that it's totally up to me, and has left the door open to discuss her notes. And the notes she just left me in this new one are fantastic, I have to say. There's not a lot, but the few places she inserted a comment or asked a question totally blew things open, and are like the best kind of writing prompts, to dive down a little deeper into the characters' emotional connection.

I've taken this weekend off to let the notes percolate in the back of my mind, and I still need to finish the re-read of my MS before really starting the revision, but I have high hopes that it won't take too long to do. And then I'm like "Yay, I'll be out on sub!" Quickly followed by remembering how much being on sub sucked, and why am I doing this to myself again? Publishing is such a rollercoaster.

ChibiUsagi said:

Raggy--I took a peek at your wordpress. Oh la la. I wish I could draw.

How was your experience with Macmillan?

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Thank you! I'm so out of practise with drawing - pretty much everything on the wordpress is OLD - but I have been picking up a pencil and doing a bit of art more recently, so I hope to get back into my art and improve. The dream is to be able to do some illustrations for my own books but I imagine that probably won't happen.

I'll PM you about Macmillan.

Isobel said:

We're getting ready to start a second round of submissions after a disappointing first round. There was one request for revisions and I actually think the new version is much, much better than the old one, so I'm glad it will get a chance to go out to some new people. Although I'm much less hopeful this time (probably for the best.) Right now we're reworking the pitch -- which I find so much sloggier and less pleasant than revising real writing.

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Good luck, Isobel! It's so frustrating when you feel you waste some chances with a less good MS but you just have to focus on the fact that you've got a superior MS out of it, and there are other people to submit too. Pitches are super hard - especially elevator pitches. They do sometimes get you to focus on what the core of your book really is though and they are useful to do, oddly, before you start writing anything at all.

spikeman4444 said:

Hello all

Just curious if anyone here ever challenges their agent when it comes to small edits. For instance, maybe a line or word or phrase that they ask you to reword or rephrase to have a different effect? Not a big sweeping edit but a small edit which will make very little difference to the story or manuscript as a whole, but you feel strongly enough not to change it. Do you always change it if the agent asks or do you explain to them why you feel you don't agree and see what their response is?

Just curious.

Happy weekend! Happy subbing! Happy revising and so on!

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I tended to pretty much change little things my former agent requested as I'm rarely precious about the actual nuts and bolts writing side of things... I didn't always alter everything, but I don't remember ever having to explain myself for rejection a suggestion. I guess it comes down to whether your agent presents the edits as must dos or merely suggested changes.

Good luck to those of you who've just gone out on sub and have sent projects to agents since I last popped into the thread, and those who are still waiting for news.. Scary but exciting times and I have my fingers crossed for all of you! I've only realised since coming on AW how common it is for writers not to sell the book they're originally signed for with an agent - but with each book we become better writers (especially when we're able to get professional advice from an agent when writing) so there's definite hope even after such disappointment.

Ooh, and on the subject of words writing per day: at my most prolific I could do 5,000 words per day but they were BAD words which would need pruning and editing. I can't imagine doing more than 2,000 reasonable word a day, tops!

Treehouseman said:

I know right, I mean, I wondered onto a twitter thread of people writing - admittedly I think full time as they had nice spouses/had committed to living in cardboard boxes and eating cat food - and there were quotes in the mid-to-high '000s. Scarily if you move into self-pub territory, there are how-to courses on 5K WORDS AN HOUR . Like, 5000 words is chump change for a days worth of this kind of writing. DUUUDE, what kind of quality is that???

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I don't see how that's possible. That's 83wpm which is a *really* fast typing speed (I think the average is about 40wpm) and that's without pauses to, you know, think. I'm not sure it's even physically possible to maintain a typing speed of 80+wpm for an hour. I'm calling BS on that one, though I don't doubt people have CLAIMED to do it. D:

I'm new here. I'm a recovering novelist (sold three mysteries AGES ago, including some to major houses, but none sold well, and now I don't even bring them up in queries and proposals). Now I write biographies. I had a one-book agreement with an agent for my first bio, which was placed with a university press -- I'm ecstatic, but the deal was, shall we say, less than lucrative. That agent was not interested in my second bio proposal. So I'm with a new agent -- again, a one-book agreement -- who sent the proposal out to several editors and asked that all decisions be made within two weeks(!) I'm assuming these are editors whom the agent knows well. One already got back to my agent, saying he loved the proposal but NOT the approach I was taking in the sample chapters. So I hastily rewrote one sample chapter (in four days) and tweaked the annotated TOC to sync with it. Am now nesting on tenterhooks because the deadline "for all offers," as the agent put it, is near. What if you threw a party and nobody came? Nothing has ever come easy to me in this business, so I'm expecting the worst. Can't keep from hoping, though, and that's what will probably make it hurt more.

busypencil said:

Can't keep from hoping, though, and that's what will probably make it hurt more.

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Woosh! What a crazy sub process, but I hope it ends in happy news ASAP. Welcome to the board and to sub hell. Here with celebratory champagne and with misery vodka, whatever the outcome. (For the non-drinkers among us, insert sparkling juice and huge milkshake instead)

Welcome to the club, busypencil.

Treehouseman said:

I don't think he has quite as many clients, though the Adult SF/F pool is tiny comparatively (the previous agent repped a lot of YA in all genres, which tends to get a LOT of outgoing people, with the resulting drama, I suppose.)

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That's an interesting observation that I do, anecdotally, see some confirmation of in my own experiences. I wonder if people who write YA really are just more extroverted and outgoing, more willing to interact frequently and less self-consciously than people who write SFF. Maybe the youthful focus demands more youthful, outgoing personalities to really capture the energy and flavor in the voice? I know some SFF writers would DEFINITELY categorize themselves as more introverted, and they prefer being a wallflower, rather than a focus of the party.

Welcome, Busypencil! I hope you get a good outcome and responses do come in two weeks so you're out of your misery (figuratively speaking) quickly. I know nothing about how biographies work so it was interesting reading your approach.

Shoeless said:

That's an interesting observation that I do, anecdotally, see some confirmation of in my own experiences. I wonder if people who write YA really are just more extroverted and outgoing, more willing to interact frequently and less self-consciously than people who write SFF. Maybe the youthful focus demands more youthful, outgoing personalities to really capture the energy and flavor in the voice? I know some SFF writers would DEFINITELY categorize themselves as more introverted, and they prefer being a wallflower, rather than a focus of the party.

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Hmm, interesting! I think a lot of YA writers come across as extroverted and outgoing on social media, but those I've met in person - and I've met quite a few - gave the impression of being fairly introverted. I used to go to a regular social with children's and YA writers and sometimes making conversation was quite hard work. I'm sure it wasn't that the YA writers there had nothing to say, more that they were somewhat shy. All anecdotal stuff, of course. Me, I'm a YA writer and more of an outgoing extrovert (day job before I left it was public speaking and running workshops for teens - I absolutely love giving presentations), but when it comes to writing, I guess, some of that extrovert nature abandons me, which is entirely due to self-doubt and a current lack of confidence... it's probably not naturally, like that. I've met no SFF writers in person, so can't comment, but I suppose it might make sense that different genres draw different personalities?

RaggyCat said:

Me, I'm a YA writer and more of an outgoing extrovert (day job before I left it was public speaking and running workshops for teens - I absolutely love giving presentations), but when it comes to writing, I guess, some of that extrovert nature abandons me, which is entirely due to self-doubt and a current lack of confidence... it's probably not naturally, like that. I've met no SFF writers in person, so can't comment, but I suppose it might make sense that different genres draw different personalities?

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The SFF writers I do know in real life all tend to be fairly composed and introverted, though of course, if someone starts a Star Wars vs Star Trek or Star Wars vs Lord of the Rings debate, then introversion is momentarily forgotten in heat of "Here's why I MUST explain to you, now, why you are MAD to have that opinion" type arguments. But if you don't poke the sleeping bear, they definitely prefer to keep more quiet and to themselves rather than march into the middle of a crowd of people and "put themselves out there."

Although what you've mentioned regarding yourself is quite interesting and new to me. It's probably just because I know many more introverted people in my real world acquaintances and tend to shy away from extroverts who I assume will find me dull and not interesting to interact with because I can't keep up with them. I find it very interesting that you would be extroverted in the real world, but then become more introverted when it comes to writing. It just seems strangely ironic/poetic that someone that is "good at life," compared to an introvert, would become quieter and less energetic when it comes to creating something. I just assumed that same "I'M READY FOR YOU, WORLD! LET'S DO THIS!" would carry over into artistic endeavors as well.

Welcome Busypencil! And good luck in the next few weeks!

Raggycat and Shoeless: I would say introvert is one of my defining characteristics (and I write YA -- although I did love SFF when I was younger.) That said, I do a lot of presentations for my work and I like being in front of people in that setting. It's the one-on-one sort of stuff at parties that terrifies me.

My update is that I just went on sub with Round 2. The manuscript went out to 6 new editors and a handful who didn't respond from Round 1, as well as the editor who wanted to see the revisions. Unlike the first time, I just proceeded right to despair on this round. I'm not sure if that's managing expectations or literally a Pavlovian response because my body has learned that sub = misery. Sorry for the whining, but I feel like this is the only space where I can express this ...

RaggyCat said:

Welcome, Busypencil! I hope you get a good outcome and responses do come in two weeks so you're out of your misery (figuratively speaking) quickly. I know nothing about how biographies work so it was interesting reading your approach.



Hmm, interesting! I think a lot of YA writers come across as extroverted and outgoing on social media, but those I've met in person - and I've met quite a few - gave the impression of being fairly introverted. I used to go to a regular social with children's and YA writers and sometimes making conversation was quite hard work. I'm sure it wasn't that the YA writers there had nothing to say, more that they were somewhat shy. All anecdotal stuff, of course. Me, I'm a YA writer and more of an outgoing extrovert (day job before I left it was public speaking and running workshops for teens - I absolutely love giving presentations), but when it comes to writing, I guess, some of that extrovert nature abandons me, which is entirely due to self-doubt and a current lack of confidence... it's probably not naturally, like that. I've met no SFF writers in person, so can't comment, but I suppose it might make sense that different genres draw different personalities?

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I was going to basically say the same thing about YA writers. They're constantly told they have to connect with their potential readership on social media, so I agree that many do come across a lot more outgoing than they really are.

Most writers I've met in person are kidlit writers of some sort, and most fall in the middle as to how social they are. I'm an introvert though, and I'm sure that colors my perspective.

Isobel said:

Unlike the first time, I just proceeded right to despair on this round. I'm not sure if that's managing expectations or literally a Pavlovian response because my body has learned that sub = misery. Sorry for the whining, but I feel like this is the only space where I can express this ...

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I can kind'a relate to this. Despair, in this situation, is at least familiar. And it can be a great insulator against being a raw, unexposed, super-vulnerable nerve to an editor rejection. Just don't fall into the trap of letting it color every other aspect of your life, because then it goes from a form of psychological protection to a serious impediment to getting through the day intact.

Earthling said:

I don't see how that's possible. That's 83wpm which is a *really* fast typing speed (I think the average is about 40wpm) and that's without pauses to, you know, think. I'm not sure it's even physically possible to maintain a typing speed of 80+wpm for an hour. I'm calling BS on that one, though I don't doubt people have CLAIMED to do it. D:

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Behold the almighty horror:

https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B00XIQKBT8/

Its the Australian Amazon, but there will be variants elsewhere. Self publishers, man. A different breed...

Earthling said:

I don't see how that's possible. That's 83wpm which is a *really* fast typing speed (I think the average is about 40wpm) and that's without pauses to, you know, think. I'm not sure it's even physically possible to maintain a typing speed of 80+wpm for an hour. I'm calling BS on that one, though I don't doubt people have CLAIMED to do it. D:

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Treehouseman said:

Behold the almighty horror:

https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B00XIQKBT8/

Its the Australian Amazon, but there will be variants elsewhere. Self publishers, man. A different breed...

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Voice dictation software ... that's how they get around the physical impossibility of typing that fast. Can you imagine?

Isobel said:

Voice dictation software ... that's how they get around the physical impossibility of typing that fast. Can you imagine?

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That, to me, is unsustainable and a little insane. However, if it's a business model they're happy with, and they're actually making a living that way, it's a testament to their skill, in a very, very narrow skillset. I imagine you have to speak super clearly, but super fast at the same time to sustain 5000 words an hour that is accurately transcribed by dictation software.

Thanks to everyone who sent me words of cheer. Good luck with Round 2, Isobel. Interesting to know that it will include some editors who didn't respond in Round 1. I'm just learning how these multiple subs work.

Isobel, I made a new sign for the Circle with neon and glitter that says SAFE SPACE! (yes, with exclamation mark). It is nice to have a place to show our vulnerable underbellies.

The 5000 words an hour thing seems riiiiidiculous. Shtick in its truest form. I think my best day was 4,000 words (some of the decent, some not), and that was during the height of NaNo when I was making up for time.

Still waiting to hear something from my agent about the MS I sent her. I had a dream last night that I met Margaret Atwood at a dog shelter and she offered to critique two of my manuscripts for me. I think the pressure is getting to me-- and maybe I want a dog?