Query, Proposal, then what?

HoldinHolden

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Hi all!

I just started querying my non-fic book last month, and currently have my proposal in the hands of a couple of agents. This is the farthest I have gotten, so I'm wondering what the rest of the process looks like.

I know with fiction, it's query, partial, full, offer (right?)
And with non-fic, it's query, proposal.... then what? Do agents typically ask for the full manuscript, even though technically they can sell a work from a proposal with samples?

Sorry if this is a dumb question. Waiting is making me anxious and confused!
 

robjvargas

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My understanding is that non-fiction doesn't even have to be complete when the proposal is sent in. The proposal would outline the structure of the book, an agent or publisher agrees/accepts the book, and then you write it up.

A fiction work has to be complete when submitted. A non-fiction work, not necessarily.
 

HoldinHolden

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You are correct- it does not have to be completed. In the query you state where in the process you are (or, at least, I do). My MS is complete. I had an agent yesterday request the full MS who hadn't read the proposal. Threw me through a loop! That is what got me wondering if it's normal for an agent to request a non-fic MS either as opposed to, or along with the proposal.
 

robjvargas

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Kinda makes sense to me. They'll want whatever it is that you've done so far. To see how you write, I suppose.
 

Siri Kirpal

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If it's memoir or some creative non-fic, they'll want to see the full. Otherwise, just the proposal.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

HoldinHolden

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Is it strange to be scratching my head? My book is... I guess it's kind of a concept parenting humor book. One agent referred to it as a "collection of essays" and I guess I can see that, but they are woven together pretty nicely if I do say so myself.
So far, I've had some agents just request the proposal, some proposal AND ms at the same time, and one yesterday just requested the MS.

Maybe with NF it's best to expect the unexpected??
 

robjvargas

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Humor is a tough category. There's not so much a research aspect in that kind of work. There's a degree of "artistic freedom" in a humor piece. A kind of fictionalization, I suppose.

So yeah, unless an agent or publisher has an established relationship with you, I could see them expecting that your work is already written.
 

Siri Kirpal

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Yeah, if you don't have a huge platform, they're likely to want to see the full with humor.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

triceretops

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You might be asked for a TOC (table of contents) and a chapter outline, which is a brief summary of the contents that each chapter explores. You can sell off of three chapters, with the rest of the book outlined. Could be a marketing proposal involved, too, explaining your target market or audience and maybe some demographics if this is a local or niche type book.

For a humor non-fiction title, you might be asked if you have any previous articles published in the slicks--this would serve as a type of platform, since there's no degree involved in this type of book unless its psychology-based or whatnot.
 

HoldinHolden

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I have a pretty big platform (have been published in a magazine, the top parenting websites, won two "top 10 funniest moms on the internet" titles in the past year, and I have a recurring slot on the local news.) Of course, it could always be bigger, but I'm not doing too poorly in that area.

I wrote the proposal with the outline, marketing analysis, competing titles, overview, qualifications, the whole thing + sample chapters. I'm USUALLY asked for that. Yesterday I was not. All depends on the agent, I suppose.
 

triceretops

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I have a pretty big platform (have been published in a magazine, the top parenting websites, won two "top 10 funniest moms on the internet" titles in the past year, and I have a recurring slot on the local news.) Of course, it could always be bigger, but I'm not doing too poorly in that area.

I wrote the proposal with the outline, marketing analysis, competing titles, overview, qualifications, the whole thing + sample chapters. I'm USUALLY asked for that. Yesterday I was not. All depends on the agent, I suppose.

As far as platform, kiddo, you've got it in the bag then. That's exactly the type of credits they'll be scouting for. You're off to the races.

tri
 

ColoradoGuy

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Humor might be a bit different -- it's not really nonfiction in the usual sense -- but it's standard in a nonfiction proposal only to put the first 2 chapters or so in, along with outlines for subsequent chapters. A big reason for that is that they often want changes.
 

HoldinHolden

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As far as platform, kiddo, you've got it in the bag then. That's exactly the type of credits they'll be scouting for. You're off to the races.

tri

Tri, that's what I thought going into this! So far, although everything I've done is great, my platform isn't big enough (according to the very few responses I have gotten). I know I'm not HUGE, and I work every day toward new opportunities and expanding, but it was a kick in the gut to hear that all the ass-busting (and I don't mean flatulence) I've been doing still wasn't enough. Hoping not all agents see it that way!

I've got the proposal with the samples and all the good stuff ready to go (had it finished before I started querying.) I just wasn't sure if they would ask for the proposal (with the included samples) and that would be enough to say yes, or if they would ask for the proposal and THEN the full MS, which would be a full extra step and a lot more waiting time. I guess I wonder because it could be a difference of many months, and the wait as it is without that extra step is already torturous.
 

veinglory

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The offer you a contract specifying when the book will be delivered, published, terms etc. You negotiate, sign, get issued a "handler"--proceed from there.
 

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When I was querying for nonfiction I didn't have any agents ask to read the entire manuscript. Some asked for a writing sample (up to two chapters), but mostly they were focused on the platform/promotional sections.

After I signed with an agent who offered, she worked with me on strengthening and reorganizing my proposal to put forward the points that she thought would be most useful/most eye-catching for the editors she had in mind. (The changes were minor, but there was a little bit of rearranging.) My agent still has not read more than the sample chapter that was included in the proposal.

Oddly enough, though, one of the publishers who responded positively to my agent's pitch asked to read the entire book. The others who have been interested so far only asked for the proposal. So it's not unheard-of for a publishing-industry professional to ask for the actual book, though I wonder in my case whether I was asked for the book simply because I mentioned "a draft is completed at X words" in the proposal. (If they know it's written, why not?)

I'm not sure based on personal experience where it goes from here because I haven't accepted an offer. I wish you the best of luck, HoldinHolden!
 

HoldinHolden

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When I was querying for nonfiction I didn't have any agents ask to read the entire manuscript. Some asked for a writing sample (up to two chapters), but mostly they were focused on the platform/promotional sections.

After I signed with an agent who offered, she worked with me on strengthening and reorganizing my proposal to put forward the points that she thought would be most useful/most eye-catching for the editors she had in mind. (The changes were minor, but there was a little bit of rearranging.) My agent still has not read more than the sample chapter that was included in the proposal.

Oddly enough, though, one of the publishers who responded positively to my agent's pitch asked to read the entire book. The others who have been interested so far only asked for the proposal. So it's not unheard-of for a publishing-industry professional to ask for the actual book, though I wonder in my case whether I was asked for the book simply because I mentioned "a draft is completed at X words" in the proposal. (If they know it's written, why not?)

I'm not sure based on personal experience where it goes from here because I haven't accepted an offer. I wish you the best of luck, HoldinHolden!

Thank you for the insight! That is exactly the kind of agent I want, and how I imagine most are- one who will work with me on things that can be improved. Especially in something as daunting as a proposal. All of my experiences have been positive thus far, but I have received nos because certain parts of my proposal were said not to be strong enough (I agreed and immediately went to strengthen that part), or my platform not wide enough.

I've yet to get past the proposal stage- but I have only been querying for a little over a month, so I hope to find out what comes next soon. Hopefully a yes!
 

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HoldinHolden, it sounds to me like your platform is significantly bigger than mine, so I'm surprised to hear you've had trouble with the platform aspect. I've had half a dozen articles published and been interviewed in magazines and been on one documentary and one mainstream news program and one radio show, but don't really have much of a following on blogs or anything--no awards either, and definitely no news show. I would think the people who want you to have a large platform just want to see evidence that you have a built-in audience, and you seem to have that in spades!

My agent definitely works with me. When she called me to offer representation, she first discussed with me what she had in mind for the publishers she wanted to send it to and made sure we had the same vision, so that was a great start. And then she basically went through my proposal and asked me to rewrite certain parts in active instead of passive voice, and suggested a reorganization of the order of my proposal parts. She never sent anything to an editor without asking me first. And when editors give her feedback or ask questions, she asks me what I think instead of answering them on my behalf without my input. She more or less lets me run the show but if I ask her what she thinks she always gives me her own perspective too--it's just really refreshing that she always asks me for MY thoughts.

I should also make it clear that I know, based on the way she talks about my book, that she understands why it should be published and can express why she thinks it's important. It's not just about "this will sell." It's about "this will help people." She seems to have a very good balance between knowledge of the job and passion for the material that works very well for her. I'm very happy with how it's working out so far, and she's approachable, so when I do accept an offer, I'm confident that I'll be in good hands.

The proposal part that I've seen agents complain about most is the marketing ideas--because people who don't know what they're doing tend to suggest really generic or unrealistic options, like "my book is perfect for a coffee table" or "endcap positioning at bookstores" or "I'll do television interviews." You have to demonstrate that all the ideas you have for marketing are realistic and within your grasp, preferably featuring connections you already have and specific places your ads, appearances, and promotions will be a good fit. With no knowledge of what kind of stuff you're throwing out there, I'm pretty much assuming you've got this covered because you seem like the kind of person who has been around the block enough to know how exposure works, but that's just for you to keep in the back of your mind. Agents will appreciate seeing really specific marketing ideas and evidence that you have the connections to make them happen!
 

Literateparakeet

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I have a pretty big platform (have been published in a magazine, the top parenting websites, won two "top 10 funniest moms on the internet" titles in the past year, and I have a recurring slot on the local news.)

Way to go! I'm so jealous excited for you. ;)

I think agents have different ideas about platform (as I imagine publishers do as well.) It certainly seems to me like you are well on your way! Best of luck. Keep us posted.