Guns In Fantasy

Βοανηργες83;2271721 said:

I noticed that at the top of it was a little hole...and at the bottom of the shaft there was a trigger!!!!!!! IT BLEW ME AWAY...

Click to expand...

Were you looking down the barrel?

Arquebuses are awesome. And, the word is awesome.

Say it with me now... "Arquebus"...

Nifty, ain't it?

Interesting variations on firepower exist across cultures. Historical research is a very handy tool.

Bonus: many of these objets' de explodey-go-boom have wicked awesome names.

My only complaint about some fantasy - they are always on the verge of developing firearms, often for centuries. Bad fantasy often has highly developed alchemists guilds but not even so much as a smoke bomb.

It's as if the introduction of gunpowder changes the romanticism or mystery of the world. I'd say that if you can have touches of the modern and can still retain a fantasy feel, you've done something right.

I dunno, in a traditional kind of fantasy, guns take the fantasy element right out for me even if they're magical. It's a deal breaker for me.

However, guns in urban fantasy or flintlocks in 18-19th century alt earth fantasy don't bother me.

I feel the same disappointment if there are clunky things like nukes, bullets and machine guns in SF, I want lasers and futuristic fancy stuff not nukes, bullets and machine guns. *yeah, I'm lookin' at YOU New Battlestar Galactica*

It depends on the type, as shown by Nightfall.

It would look weird in a traditional fantasy book (you know, magical lands, magical people, that stuff) for a dude to come and whip out a pistol.

You would be revolted the same way in a sci-fi 3000 years into the future, and some oddball has to have some Wild Wild West revolver.

First reaction: WTF???

I write urban fantasy, so most of my characters have guns. ^_^

I don't see why a fantasy can't have guns of some kind. Why does fantasy always have to be set in the medieval/primitive ages? Can't it be set in a futuristic setting (Star Wars), and any kind of technological era between that? Does fantasy genre automatically mean "primitive world"?

Brutal Mustang said:

I don't see why a fantasy can't have guns of some kind. Why does fantasy always have to be set in the medieval/primitive ages? Can't it be set in a futuristic setting (Star Wars), and any kind of technological era between that? Does fantasy genre automatically mean "primitive world"?

Click to expand...

I think there's a lot of places for firearms in fantasy. Western and urban and futuristic, and like I said above, even in the traditional medieval fantasy as well.

I can't understand the philosophy that guns are anathema to fantasy...

It's getting old

The more fantasy I read, the more effort it seems like is being put into finding ways of preventing scientific advancement. Sure, I understand the idea that a given society is in the medieval time frame, but I have a hard time believing that people would stay at a fixed level of technology for all eternity.

I'd personally love to see some fantasy that actually addressed this issue(I'm actually working on an outline for a story pertaining to this subject). What seems to be the issue to me, is that while magic is in and of it self powerful(manipulating the laws of nature is by its very nature just that), it's not equal between characters in a given universe. Seriously, how many stories have you read where EVERYONE is a bad ass mage? The thing I like so much about incorporating the idea of a conflict between magic and technology, is that technology is essentially egalitarian. It's simply a result of effort and knowledge, that anyone could possibly do, or contribute to. Magic on the other hand feels more like a luck of the draw type deal, where a few lucky individuals are given immense power through birth while the rest of the average joes are at their mercy.

This imbalance in power has never been addressed in any fantasy story I've read, hence why I'm working one . In the story I'm outlining, the primary idea is about a small technologically advanced society(say with around 1880-1890 tech) that is destroyed by larger magical nations because they are viewed as a threat to the ruling mages of those larger nations. In my story guns play a HUGE role in the story, as they are the means of allowing the 98% of the people who have no magical ability, to level the playing field.

The whole idea of guns "ruining fantasy" is pure BS. The truth unfortunately is that a lot of fantasy, is ruining itself. The endless "Sword and Sorcery" books are just getting old(at least to me), as they seem to beat the same horse to death over and over. Sci-fi is also in a similar rut(albeit more so on the space operaish end than hard sci-fi for the same reason). Guns, if anything can serve as a catalyst for change(as seen in our history), and I see no reason why the same couldn't be true for a lot of fantasy.

I don't know where this gunphobia came from in fantasy, but I hope that it eventually passes.

I recently read a very good fantasy set in a rough equivilant of the 1700s, except they didn't have guns, because they didn't need them. Instead they used "steam cannons" that were heated by mages and the mixture of magic and technology worked really well.

The Malazan epic fantasy series has extremely powerful magic and lots of different beings, but it also has quite a bit of technology as well. For example, in an average battle you're as likely to see summoned demons and enchanted swords as you are to see explosives like grenades and land mines (though not named as such, it's clearly what they are). It's a weird match but it works very well.

It all depends on consistency and logic, I think. If it works for the story, then by all means, add in as much (or as little) technology as you'd like. The only real key is that it should make sense in context.

~DragonHeart~

DragonHeart said:

The Malazan epic fantasy series has extremely powerful magic and lots of different beings, but it also has quite a bit of technology as well.

Click to expand...

It's well done there, and the technology doesn't even slightly affect the level of "fantasyness" in the stories. It's a light touch, but not arbitrary barriers to technology.

There's dense layers of history, signs of evolution, and even towns that have gas lanterns to light the streets at night. There's also dragons, wizards (sorta), and epic sword fights.

I like Erikson.

Dommo said:

The more fantasy I read, the more effort it seems like is being put into finding ways of preventing scientific advancement. Sure, I understand the idea that a given society is in the medieval time frame, but I have a hard time believing that people would stay at a fixed level of technology for all eternity.

I'd personally love to see some fantasy that actually addressed this issue(I'm actually working on an outline for a story pertaining to this subject). What seems to be the issue to me, is that while magic is in and of it self powerful(manipulating the laws of nature is by its very nature just that), it's not equal between characters in a given universe. Seriously, how many stories have you read where EVERYONE is a bad ass mage? The thing I like so much about incorporating the idea of a conflict between magic and technology, is that technology is essentially egalitarian. It's simply a result of effort and knowledge, that anyone could possibly do, or contribute to. Magic on the other hand feels more like a luck of the draw type deal, where a few lucky individuals are given immense power through birth while the rest of the average joes are at their mercy.

This imbalance in power has never been addressed in any fantasy story I've read, hence why I'm working one . In the story I'm outlining, the primary idea is about a small technologically advanced society(say with around 1880-1890 tech) that is destroyed by larger magical nations because they are viewed as a threat to the ruling mages of those larger nations. In my story guns play a HUGE role in the story, as they are the means of allowing the 98% of the people who have no magical ability, to level the playing field.

Click to expand...

I really like that conflict. It mirrors how technology in general makes things more possible for the masses and threatens the status quo.

In settings where magic is so powerful and limited to an exclusive group, I imagine technology advancements would be accelerated (or at least brutally stifled).

MattW I agree completely.

I think that the whole "born with the magical gift thing" kind of leads to oppression of the folks without it, even if it's not the author's intent. It's just that the disparity in power between the average person, and a mage is just so big that mages would naturally end up ruling. It's no different than someone who's born into a massive fortune(power through money), the only difference is that anyone could be rich if they have enough ambition, balls, or just a good idea.

The more I'm outlining my story and changing things up, the more I like the subject. In fact it's starting to turn into a story of vengeance about the last survivor of the "technologist" genocide, who uses an enchanted pistol(which contains the collective knowledge and memories of his nation), to murder the rulers of the magical nations that killed his kind.

I think it'll be an interesting summer project to work on, and hopefully by the end of the summer I'll have the story finished.

Colin McHale said:

I guess the question I'd ask is: why can't guns work in fantasy? It seems a lot of fantasy authors (no I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here) shy away from guns, because they're somehow perceived as inherently "bad".

Click to expand...

No doubt some authors do harbor such preconceptions. In my case, though, I don't want guns around because they make battles not only too fast and easy, but too much like battles in our own mundane world. And so I generally have the laws of physics be sufficiently different in my parallel world to prevent gunpowder from being an effective propellant.

In one book, I came up with a gun operated completely by magic. But the spell required to create it was demanding, cutting-edge stuff, so the gun couldn't be mass-produced. And it wasn't much good at long ranges anyway.

My way around these obstacles is that guns are still relatively primitive, are expensive to produce and maintain, take time to reload, are prone to jamming, and the equivalent of gunpowder, Fireseed, is a plant (seed) that's slow to grow. Hence Fireseed is also quite expensive.

Click to expand...

That's another interesting approach, and one I'd never thought of.

Dommo said:

The more fantasy I read, the more effort it seems like is being put into finding ways of preventing scientific advancement. Sure, I understand the idea that a given society is in the medieval time frame, but I have a hard time believing that people would stay at a fixed level of technology for all eternity.

Click to expand...

I totally agree with that sentiment. I think its entirely a problem with the writing. I call it the Eddings effect; where countries exist in virtual stasis for thousands of years; speaking the same languages, having the same arbitrary borders, same technology, etc. And there's no good reason for it! Why can't your story line span centuries instead of millenia? What's the difference? Would a 700 year old sorceror be less impressive than a 7000 year old one? At least in 700 years you can show some kind of reasonable development of civilization, say from early middle ages to high middle ages, without disrupting your plot ideas.

It drives me bonkers.

Lccorp2 said:

railguns of sci-fi.

Click to expand...

Ummm... small point of order; railguns don't really qualify as sci-fi since they can be built. Hence, not 'fiction'

Thank you

arkady said:

No doubt some authors do harbor such preconceptions. In my case, though, I don't want guns around because they make battles not only too fast and easy, but too much like battles in our own mundane world.

Click to expand...

The reason I always had guns in all my various unpublished fantasy novels is they make the fighting fast and easy and you never have to bother with large battles at all...or if they come up you head them off with some very heavy magical artillery.

Use magic guns. They can be good against magic users.

I've not read too many fantasy novels with guns in them, but the ones I have read have incorporated the weapon very well into the story. Every watch Weaponology? There's some really crazy weapons out there. We're a far step away from having ray guns, but who knows? We're in science fiction now.