What Constitutes YA Fiction?

Sage · Aug 6, 2018

coffeehunter said:
Nothing is black and white. My second book I'm writing is considered YA even though the MC is 10 going on 11.

Is considered YA by whom?

coffeehunter said:
Whenever it makes sense to do so. Some examples in the market you can look at are Orson Scott Card and JK Rowling, both best-selling authors, who have young characters that age over time for different reasons. Card usually starts around 6 (Ender's Game, Songmaster (3 years of age?), Alvin, etc.), and Rowling did HP starting as a baby. Robin Hobb is another author. These are usually for characters you're going to see a lifespan of. Orson goes all the way to elder, but HP ended as a teenager.

Harry Potter is middle grade, and Ender's Game is both adult and written at a time when there wasn't a YA market the way there is today. There's a thread about whether Ender's Game is YA or adult going on right now. Using these examples for YA is misleading to authors who want to know what constitutes YA fiction in today's market.

cornflake · Aug 6, 2018

coffeehunter said:
Whenever it makes sense to do so. Some examples in the market you can look at are Orson Scott Card and JK Rowling, both best-selling authors, who have young characters that age over time for different reasons. Card usually starts around 6 (Ender's Game, Songmaster (3 years of age?), Alvin, etc.), and Rowling did HP starting as a baby. Robin Hobb is another author. These are usually for characters you're going to see a lifespan of. Orson goes all the way to elder, but HP ended as a teenager.

Adult, YA, etc., aren't... ratings. They're marketing categories.

Harry Potter didn't start with him as a baby, it started with him at 11, and it's MG, not YA.

Saying 'let your agent decide' is fine if someone has an agent. If someone is looking for an agent, they need to know what they're pitching, as different agents rep different categories and genres, and an easy way to get your query ditched is to send it to an agent who doesn't rep the category or genre.

coffeehunter · Aug 6, 2018

cornflake said:
Adult, YA, etc., aren't... ratings. They're marketing categories.

Harry Potter didn't start with him as a baby, it started with him at 11, and it's MG, not YA.

Saying 'let your agent decide' is fine if someone has an agent. If someone is looking for an agent, they need to know what they're pitching, as different agents rep different categories and genres, and an easy way to get your query ditched is to send it to an agent who doesn't rep the category or genre.

Read the first chapter in book 1. Harry starts off as a baby.

You're right that HP is MG. It's MG for the first few books, but is YA in the rest of the books. That doesn't mean it's not accessible to younger kids, as they read it all the time.

Well, you still need to make your best judgement for the agent, and it's better to have someone else do that for you instead of yourself. If you have an editor who knows the market well, he or she can usually suggest the category. That's what my last editor did. If you have no idea, I agree the agent is going to toss it out if you can't estimate your market or audience. If you're close, they'll work with it and adjust the category if it benefits the market/sales. Again, they know the market better than you do, but you still need to have an estimated audience target.

coffeehunter · Aug 6, 2018

Who are you writing to? Why are you writing to them? That's usually the answer to your estimated market category. The more I think of it, I think I'm writing to adults even though the character starts off young (I'm usually a MG writer), but the themes speak to adults more than it would for kids or teens, although they will still enjoy it. They "will" enjoy it. But that's all you can do: give your best estimate, but also give the agent a good story.

cornflake · Aug 6, 2018

coffeehunter said:
Read the first chapter in book 1. Harry starts off as a baby.

You're right that HP is MG. It's MG for the first few books, but is YA in the rest of the books. That doesn't mean it's not accessible to younger kids, as they read it all the time.

Well, you still need to make your best judgement for the agent, and it's better to have someone else do that for you instead of yourself. If you have an editor who knows the market well, he or she can usually suggest the category. That's what my last editor did. If you have no idea, I agree the agent is going to toss it out if you can't estimate your market or audience. If you're close, they'll work with it and adjust the category if it benefits the market/sales. Again, they know the market better than you do, but you still need to have an estimated audience target.

It starts with the Dursleys, not with HP as a baby. It's just setup. The books start with him at 11. That's like saying if someone starts an autobiography with 'I was born on a dark, stormy night, and by the time I was 21...' the book ranges from birth to whatever.

coffeehunter · Aug 6, 2018

cornflake said:
It starts with the Dursleys, not with HP as a baby. It's just setup. The books start with him at 11. That's like saying if someone starts an autobiography with 'I was born on a dark, stormy night, and by the time I was 21...' the book ranges from birth to whatever.

You're right, now that I recall, though Hagrid does fly down with his motorcycle with HP as a baby. Although brief, the lifespan starts before 11.

But since we're talking about book 1, an MG title, I agree we should focus on YA here.

I'll just end with this:

Write a great story and the age category will present itself later; otherwise, it turns into an issue of expectations versus what you want to write during your first draft. Have someone else determine it for you because it's easy to be biased. I think we get too wrapped up in detail when it's not necessary and it distracts us from writing.

cornflake · Aug 6, 2018

coffeehunter said:
You're right, now that I recall, though Hagrid does fly down with his motorcycle with HP as a baby. Although brief, the lifespan starts before 11.

But since we're talking about book 1, an MG title, I agree we should focus on YA here.

I'll just end with this:
Write a great story and the age category will present itself later. Have someone else determine it for you because it's easy to be biased. I think we get too wrapped up in detail when it's not necessary and it distracts us from writing.

If someone is seeking an agent, it's necessary to know what they've written, and if someone, say, wants to write MG or YA, they need to know the basic conventions, the difference in voice, etc.

"Write a great story,' is fine, except when someone pops up with a 30,000-word story with a 25-year-old elfin protagonist they're shopping as a YA fantasy novel and wonders why no one is interested.

coffeehunter · Aug 6, 2018

cornflake said:
If someone is seeking an agent, it's necessary to know what they've written, and if someone, say, wants to write MG or YA, they need to know the basic conventions, the difference in voice, etc.

"Write a great story,' is fine, except when someone pops up with a 30,000-word story with a 25-year-old elfin protagonist they're shopping as a YA fantasy novel and wonders why no one is interested.

It's necessary to give them an estimated target (which is why you should have someone knowledgeable of the business to do it for you), but they have the final word.

Sage · Aug 6, 2018

Just because the author says it's YA doesn't make it so. So I can write this 30K story about a 25yo main character and claim up and down that it's YA. And you can say, "It's not black and white. See, Sage has a YA with a 25-year-old main character," but that doesn't mean it's really YA, just because I "have the final word." Because the author doesn't decide what YA is. The market does.

coffeehunter · Aug 6, 2018

Sage said:
Just because the author says it's YA doesn't make it so. So I can write this 30K story about a 25yo main character and claim up and down that it's YA. And you can say, "It's not black and white. See, Sage has a YA with a 25-year-old main character," but that doesn't mean it's really YA, just because I "have the final word." Because the author doesn't decide what YA is. The market does.

You're destroying my world view

It sounds like I have to unlearn what I've understood, I suppose. I do think the agent decides at the end of the day though which market the book would best fit in, which overrides the author's view. But if the book makes no sense in how it's done, and can't fit with the agent's wishes, it'd be a reject.

cornflake · Aug 6, 2018

coffeehunter said:
You're destroying my world view It sounds like I have to unlearn what I've understood, I suppose. I do think the agent decides at the end of the day though which market the book would best fit in, which overrides the author's view. But if the book makes no sense in how it's done, and can't fit with the agent's wishes, it'd be a reject.

Again, how would one GET an agent if the person is sending out a 30K story about a 25-year-old to agents who rep YA?

coffeehunter · Aug 6, 2018

cornflake said:
Again, how would one GET an agent if the person is sending out a 30K story about a 25-year-old to agents who rep YA?

You can prevent sending something poor to an agent. I mentioned twice already (though no one does this): have someone read your work for you to give the recommendations on category--preferably someone you don't know and that the person knows the business and markets well. If this person was reading what you have described here, he/she should tell you it needs work.

Paul Scott · Nov 22, 2018

Its a question with no right answer I think. Harry Potter was designed as a child's book for 9-12 year olds but I think it has surpassed that category simply through its quality and detail.

Bufty · Nov 22, 2018

Paul Scott said:
Its a question with no right answer I think. Harry Potter was designed as a child's book for 9-12 year olds but I think it has surpassed that category simply through its quality and detail.

It was more than 'simply through its quality and detail'.

I believe Harry Potter was cleverly and specifically structured to carry its initially targeted readers all the way through the developing tale, as they aged along with Harry. It also allowed for the continual attraction of new readers who may have picked up Book III or IV and then wanted to read the earlier parts.

Sage · Nov 22, 2018

Not that "quality and detail" are traits that don't belong in YA fiction...

elmoujabber · Feb 20, 2019

Honestly, I feel like it varies. Some agents will say its preteens to nineteen. Some say the protagonist can be as old as 21. The word count tends to be around 65,000. I wish there was a more of a clear answer so when I queried I knew if I could put YA. My character is twenty and I'm never sure if I fit into that category.

Roxxsmom · Feb 20, 2019

popmuze said:
What about sex and drugs? Profanity? I'd heard there were a lot of changes in YA over the last ten years, at the upper levels, wherever they are. And now you can deal with these topics almost as explicitly as you can in adult novels. Anyone know if this is true?

Since a number of successful YA novels do exactly this, I'd say it is. As long ago as the 70s such books existed.

This doesn't mean every agent or editor is equally receptive to this kind of content for teens, but at least some are.

As for the acceptable word count, that will depend in part on the genre of the YA work. A YA epic fantasy will likely have a higher word count than a YA contemporary. But as with adult genres, rules on word count aren't set in stone.

The_Merovingian · Feb 20, 2019

Bufty said:
It was more than 'simply through its quality and detail'.

I believe Harry Potter was cleverly and specifically structured to carry its initially targeted readers all the way through the developing tale, as they aged along with Harry. It also allowed for the continual attraction of new readers who may have picked up Book III or IV and then wanted to read the earlier parts.

Harry potter - This might be the view and interest of the publisher, but from the writer point of view, and I might be naive here, it was to tell a story for teenagers with young adult themes.
It turned out that the narrative was entertaining for a larger ages audience. All of it without profanities, drugs or alcohol theme.

cornflake · Feb 20, 2019

The_Merovingian said:
Harry potter - This might be the view and interest of the publisher, but from the writer point of view, and I might be naive here, it was to tell a story for teenagers with young adult themes.
It turned out that the narrative was entertaining for a larger ages audience. All of it without profanities, drugs or alcohol theme.

Harry Potter is an MG book, not YA. The series shifts to YA in the middleish, but he's 11 in the first book.

The_Merovingian · Feb 20, 2019

cornflake said:
Harry Potter is an MG book, not YA. The series shifts to YA in the middleish, but he's 11 in the first book.

MG?

starrystorm · Feb 20, 2019

The_Merovingian said:
MG?

"Middle Grade" it's for middle schoolers. Here's a link if you need it since katiemac did a better job than I ever could: https://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?164605-Middle-Grade-Young-Adult-Adult-How-do-you-categorize-your-novel

ETA: When I say it's for middle schoolers, I mean that's the target audience, anyone can read MG.

The_Merovingian · Feb 20, 2019

Thanks for the link. this forum is awful to navigate through.

AW Admin · Feb 20, 2019

The_Merovingian said:
Thanks for the link. this forum is awful to navigate through.

There's a search at the bottom of every page.

There's a list of the forums here.

The link starrystorm gave you is one of the permanent "sticky" posts at the top of the YA forum.

Read the FAQs and other sticky posts; they'll answer a lot of your questions.

In fact, in general, learning to read the screen will help in this and every other online community.

Updown · Feb 21, 2019

I repeatedly see agents saying that it ends at the MC going past age 19 (though I have seen some agents even say this is stepping into NA territory....).

But anyway, most YA books I've read always have an MC somewhere between 15ish-18 years old. So I think the teenage age range for the MC/supporting characters is the most important aspect for sure.

The_Merovingian · Feb 21, 2019

Building friendship, learning from your mistakes, trying to fly on your own. Questioning the world as it is and forging your own ideal and/or belief against the reality: not everything is white or black.

What Constitutes YA Fiction?

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

coffeehunter

coffeehunter

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

coffeehunter

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

coffeehunter

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

coffeehunter

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

coffeehunter

Paul Scott

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

elmoujabber

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

The_Merovingian

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

The_Merovingian

starrystorm

The_Merovingian

AW Admin

Updown

The_Merovingian