Knives

A nice balanced throwing dagger. Maybe two just in case. When you fight with a knife of any kind you hold it in your fist (blade protruding out from the pinky) and fight with your fists until you can get a blade in an opening somewhere. This is what I've read. No first hand accounts mind you.

And another answer is the blade protrudes from the thumb end of the fist.

It may depend more on the type of fighting you would be doing.

Bayonets and survival knives for fighting and strategic throwing (hardly ever a good strategy to throw your opponent your weapon but it has it's place).
I use several but the M6 bayonet is my favorite fighting knife. I have KA-BARs but I don't like them nearly as much. M5 bayonet is pretty much the same thing but it was more for utility than for fighting. M6 was a fighting upgrade.

I would never use a blade made for throwing as a weapon. They are made for carnival acts.
but they are poular in novels and movies.

Real life says keep it in your hand. If opponent is not close enough for hand-to-hand, they are far enough to run from.

tips from your uncle rt

Juniper said:

Thanks for the suggestions. This is a situation where guns are a non-issue and the carrier has training specific to combat involving knives as well as assorted survival skills.

RT, I've looked up the things you mention. That was a huge help. Sometimes terminolgy is the only thing between a successful and an unsuccessful search.

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True. good luck. Don't be afraid to ask. Knife Fighting is my specialty. Some real techniques are ungooglable because they are not real romantic or spectacular. Just dirty fighting.

Knives

I have spent the afternoon trying to learn about knives as weapons and I am at a place where I would love to hear from someone knowledgeable. I could use some suggestions for brand names or types of knives to google, the sort that someone experienced and comfortable with blades would carry as protection. I'm looking for background, not heavy technical details. I just need to visualize what would be used and how it would be carried.

Thanks!

Addendum:

This is a situation where guns are a non-issue and the carrier has training specific to combat involving knives as well as assorted survival skills.

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Oh man, what a can of worms. Quickest in a pinch is a fixed-blade knife. Bigger is "usually" better, but that probably remains situation/story dependent. Google "tactical knife" and you'll find plenty to look at.

As to what would be used, and how it would be carried ... that's situation and story dependent, isn't it? Anything pointy and sharp can be used. Belt-line carry, up front, is quick and accessible. Then there's neck-line carry, wherein some sheaths are worn around then neck like a necklace, blade up, grip down, usually under a shirt. William Gibson had a character carrying a tanto blade under his arm, like a gun. Oh, and then there's the Crocodile Dundee carry, which is strapped across the back ; )

Anyway ... brand names ... no shortage, there, but here are a few in no real order:

Chris Reeve
http://www.chrisreeve.com/greenberet.htm

Crawford Handmade Knives
http://www.crawfordknives.com
http://www.crawfordknives.com/DRAGON KNIFE.htm

Shivworks
http://www.shivworks.com/clinchpick.asp

KaBar
http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=KA1480

Emerson Knives
http://www.emersonknives.com/

Benchmade
http://www.benchmade.com/

For fun, of course, you can always check out knives over at KnifeArt dot com:

http://www.knifeart.com/tacfixblad1.html
http://www.knifeart.com/tacticalknives.html

Then there's CRKT (Columbia River Knife & Tool), Cold Steel, Spyderco, SOG, Buck, Kershaw, Boker, Gerber, and on ... and on...

So it doesn't pay to have a ranged weapon in real life like it does in D&D?

I found that having the blade down (from pinky) reduces the range of the knife making it harder to strike a blow with as you have to double back on the length of your arm.

My £0.02

Knife held in fist with blade protruding past meaty part of palm (pinky side) is the proper combat position. Knives are primarily made for defense and slashing.
Stabbing is done in mostly deceptive moves.
Knives are only for offense in "dirty fighting". Where the victim is unaware of your presence.

People holding knives the other way will only donate same to an experienced opponent. There are too many counter-moves to street style.

And again, if i cannot reach an opponent, I can run from said opponent. That is my preferred fighting style - RUNJUTSU!

Double edged blades are best, whether small that fit and look like a belt buckle, one that slips into your boot,or a back of belt sheath, back of the neck between the shoulder sheath--under clothes, a 'breast dagger' small and located in the cleavage for the more endowed ladies.

My personal favorite (the one I carried while in Iraq) is a Benchmade. Nice heavy blade, quick action comfortable grip. Didnt care for the serrated half of the blade though...

Yes it does pay to have a ranged weapon in real life. Its called a gun. A knife is not a good ranged weapon. Not to say that knives are useless, but gun beats knives at a distance greater than 5 feet. In general.

A medieval fighting manual said of knife fighting; "You cannot practice this art without being cut." So a lot of knife fighting is about inflicting serious injuries while suffering superficial injuries yourself.

Also the first rule of knife fighting; don't let them see you have a knife until after you've cut them. When fighting with a sword, its harder to hide what you are doing. In knife fighting, it is both possible and critical.

People frequently will use a coat or cloak in conjunction with a knife. (hence the term 'cloak-and-dagger') The coat can conceal your knife, give protection to your unarmed hand, entangle his weapon, and can be used to distract or blind your opponent by whipping it at his face.

This may be too late...

I agree on the M6 for combat. Daily, I carry a SoG. Lighter weight, slips in my boot or pocket nicely, and is very comfortable, both in use and while concealed.

Styles of fighting usually include both types of fist grips. There are other grips as well, but mostly for specific techniques. If we knew a little more about the fight scene, we might be able to help you make a more defined decision.

Hope this helps and wasn't too late.

...gun beats knives at a distance greater than 5 feet. In general.

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Well, not usually. Probably not even in general. Though it kinda depends.* So in the interest of friendly chit-chat...

Dennis Teuller's famous drill seems to indicate that knives often beat guns up to about 21 feet ... unless the gunman is already aiming at the knifer. But from a holster? Gunman usually gets sliced and diced if he just stands there. Knifer is usually much faster moving forward than gunman is in reverse, or even sideways. (Though gun guy's lateral movement forces a directional change for the knifer, which slows him down, giving gun guy more time to skeedadle.) Statistics, too, seem to indicate that the majority of lethal force encounters actually occur not at the oft-heard 21 feet, but at about five to ten(!). In that case, gunman had better be Lightning McQuick with a CNS hit at 5 feet against a knifer.*

That medieval manual, though, is spot on. (And cloak and dagger is fun.)

And ditto, too, "If we knew a little more about the fight scene, we might be able to help you make a more defined decision."

all things equal. gun in hand vs knife in hand. even gun in unsecured holster vs knife in unsecured holster.

And I disagree that the gunman can't go back fast, if he's been at all trained. Trained knife guy will lose against equally trained gunman. If you assume that its mr famous knife man vs joe blow gunman, that isn't a fair test situation.

Sarpedon said:

all things equal. gun in hand vs knife in hand.

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That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish, isn't it?

Teuller's drill though, as I recall, posits gun guy standing there with holstered sidearm. Seven yards away, knife guy already has knife in hand. Knifer charges gun guy -- and here's where the demo gets fishy, because guess what happens when gun guy just stands there? -- you betcha, he gets turned into sushi. When the gun guy moves, though, his chances increase. If gun guy already has a bead on knifer, though, the matter turns into CNS hits and/or movement of gun guy. Otherwise gun guy still gets cut. Assuming, of course that knifer is really, really intent. This is largely the point of the drill. Develop some awareness of how close is too close, and then learn what to do about it.

And I disagree that the gunman can't go back fast, if he's been at all trained.

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I don't quite disagree, but I expect most folks run faster forward than backwards, and see better, too, things that they might otherwise trip over. Question seems to be one of creating sufficient space to take further effective action, whether to King Arthur it -- "Run away!" -- or bust caps. (Which is the other part of the drill: Learn effective strategies.)

Trained knife guy will lose against equally trained gunman.

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This one sure looks like a matter of distance, though, isn't it? And whether or not weapons are already in hand. (But isn't untrained gunman vs. untrained knifer more interesting?)

If you assume that its mr famous knife man vs joe blow gunman, that isn't a fair test situation.

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Jerry Miculek vs. me? I die. Then I die some more after his lickety-split reload. (No doubt the exact same fate, too, versus anyone else.)

Mr. Famous Knife Man vs. Joe Dirt gunman? Not fair at certain distances. But fictionwise, we get to make up whatever we think works for the story.

For instance, Kill Bill and lots of other movies tell us that swords are apparently quite easy to hide under things like yellow track suits, and that they (or knives in general) are always far deadlier than any kind of gun at any kind of distance.

Oh, and if you drop your blade, you can always use the Force to pop it back into your hand.

Aha! but if you are assuming the knife guy has the drop on the gunman, then you aren't saying that knives beat guns, you are saying that if you have the drop on someone, you win. Duh.

As long as you are assuming the guy has his gun holstered, why not assume he hasn't got a round chambered? that he's got his trigger lock on? that he's got a broken arm and an eyepatch?

Draw!

If you're further than five feet from me, and I have a holstered gun ( SA P9C), I will out draw you EVERY time! Sorry, but the quick draw, once practiced (and that is what we're talking about right? not a bunch of rank amateurs playing with toys,) then the gun wins! If I'm standing face to face (aware of the opponent) then I'll win with my gun!

http://www.fastdraw.org/

No knife weilder can clear 5 feet in a 1/4 second!

I know this is a 'knife' thread, but I have to put in my 5c.

Sarpedon said:

Aha! but if you are assuming the knife guy has the drop on the gunman, then you aren't saying that knives beat guns, you are saying that if you have the drop on someone, you win.

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Nah. Not what I'm saying. That's just what the drill says. Guy with holstered gun faces guy with knife. Guy with knife runs at guy with holstered gun. Nothing but a CNS hit stops knife guy. Cut cut.

As long as you are assuming the guy has his gun holstered, why not assume he hasn't got a round chambered? that he's got his trigger lock on? that he's got a broken arm and an eyepatch?

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Nah. Assume much more difficulty than that. Guy doesn't even have a gun because it's too big and heavy and uncomfortable to carry. Instead, it sits comfortably at home, guarding his safe, from the inside.

There is no such thing as knife 'fighting'; only getting stabbed and bleeding out. Nine times out of ten I would much, much rather deal with a firearm situation.

Knife 'fighters' are almost always Walts.

Guy with knife runs at guy with holstered gun

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You see, if I had a holstered gun and a guy with a knife ran at me, I'd first do one of the various boxing, wrestling moves I know. If he's running top speed, I don't care about the knife, I have the advantage, as I can sidestep or do anything I want, but he can't; all he can do is run foward fast, because if he does anything else, I draw and shoot. After I've tossed his dumb ass to the ground, then I draw and shoot. You see, this drill assumes that all the gunman can do is stand there and draw his gun. Not realistic.

Sarpedon said:

You see, if I had a holstered gun and a guy with a knife ran at me, I'd first do one of the various boxing, wrestling moves I know. If he's running top speed, I don't care about the knife, I have the advantage, as I can sidestep or do anything I want, but he can't; all he can do is run foward fast, because if he does anything else, I draw and shoot. After I've tossed his dumb ass to the ground, then I draw and shoot. You see, this drill assumes that all the gunman can do is stand there and draw his gun. Not realistic.

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He can also do what he wants. It would very much depend on distance and a multitude of other factors. As for deploying boxing/wrestling moves FIRST - too funny, mate.

We all might imagine what we're going to do when such a situation arises but even with training we automatically default to i. shitting our pants and ii. (if we have a firearm) aiming badly with one hand and hoping to get lucky.

Mr. Fix said:

If you're further than five feet from me, and I have a holstered gun ( SA P9C), I will out draw you EVERY time! Sorry, but the quick draw, once practiced (and that is what we're talking about right? not a bunch of rank amateurs playing with toys,) then the gun wins! If I'm standing face to face (aware of the opponent) then I'll win with my gun!

http://www.fastdraw.org/

No knife weilder can clear 5 feet in a 1/4 second!

I know this is a 'knife' thread, but I have to put in my 5c.

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That fast draw biz looks cool, albeit old-fashioned speed-rocky kinda cool. Apparently, then, you're no Joe Dirt.

But if 1.5 seconds is the average time to cover 21 feet, and we snip that 21 feet down to, say, five feet and three inches (my math wobbles like a 3-wheeled shopping cart going down a flight of steps, so feel free to correct all of my errors involving the halving of halves), doesn't this mean the time over that distance is .375 seconds, or pretty much 1/4 of a second?

And how precise is quick draw shooting? If the objective of the drill is to not get cut, will four to nine inches of accuracy at such range prove sufficient to immediately stop the threat? Or will the gunshot threat close distance and slice?

Call me Curious George.