I just got a crit from another forum. Is it just me? Or is this critter a total jerk?

To be honest, I thought it was both objective and constructive.

He only told you what he would do in order to give his criticisms some context, to help you understand what he was getting at.

Plus many critters view a piece in their own eyes, as in - what would they do to make it better if it was theirs.

I haven't read the crit, but just wanted to say- take deep breaths Blue Repeat the phrase No worries until it sticks. Then have fun writing. K?

BlueLucario said:

I'm sorry, to be honest, I don't know how well I take criticism, but judging from the feedback of this one critter, not only do I find it arrogant, but he was not concise throughout his critique. He left me asking too many questions and he went on rambling about himself. I know you can't please everyone, but just look at the way he crits it.

Look here. (If I'm not allowed to link to another forums please let me know.)
http://www.writingforums.com/critiq...-all-but-does-piece-sound-bit-disturbing.html

I don't get it. I was very confused with the feedback, I don't even know if he read the whole thing. But the only thing I can tell you, is that he was not concise in his review.

I wasn't angry at him, except for the part where he went on rambling of how HE would write it. He did hurt me, but only for a second.

your thoughts on this?

Have I failed to take criticism well? Or is this guy too condenscending?

I'm not ranting, I'm just confused.

To MODS: If I have place this topic in the wrong thread , feel free to move it and please let me know.

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I'm going to be blunt with you, because I think it'll help you.

When you post your work up for other people to critique, you have to be prepared to accept criticism. It's harder than it sounds. I put something up in the SYW board a week or so back and got one mildly negative crit, and it threw my ego into such a tizzy that, again, I've decided I'm just not mature enough to ask other writers of their opinions.

His critique doesn't seem to be overly negative or harsh to me. It sounded to me like he was honestly trying to be helpful. You're overreacting.

You might want to back off asking for crits, for a while. I read the piece you posted, and it really needs editing, mostly from a *logic* standpoint, and partially from a grammar standpoint. For instance, you state that "some of his yellow teeth were missing." If they're missing, how do you know they're yellow? I know what you're trying to say, but you're not saying it.

Read books. Read them often. Write. Write often. And don't worry about what other people think until you've got a pile of finished stories, or a novel, that you're ready to edit.

Wow. I'm going to have to disagree with some of the others here and side with you and say that guy is a jerk. I mean, wow. It's one thing not to like a piece--even to hate it--but to go about telling you like that?

There's nothing wrong with not liking a piece, but there's no reason for him to be that rude. It started out fairly objective--if harsh and blunt--but the way he kept talking about how he would do it is telling, I think. If nothing else, he's bad at critiquing. He definitely wasn't trying to help you. Maybe he thought he was, but deep down he wasn't. He was trying to make you write your story HIS way, not help you improve your own writing.

Second what Brokenfingers said. The critter actually is trying to help by offering suggestions, most of which I thought were worthwhile ideas to try. He may have said it more bluntly than most, but that's a critique style that you're going to run across.

But with any crits, sometimes you'll get an immediate emotional reaction. I've seen it in my critique group when someone starts getting defensive, argumentive, or tries to explain the story. The best thing to do is print the crit and set it aside. Wait a week or two. By then, the initial reaction will have faded, but it'll still be in the back of your mind. Then when you read it again, it'll look different and perhaps you'll be able to get more out of it.

I have to agree with both the original critter and brokenfingers. I think the critique was quite objective and the critter was trying to help.

He never said he didn't like the piece -- you're interpreting someone not jumping up and down and telling you you're a genius to mean they dislike the piece. Seriously, if you cannot take constructive criticism, or criticism of any kind, perhaps a career in the arts is not for you. You asked for critique, he complimented your idea, and gave very good suggestions for how to improve your execution of the idea. If you're only looking for accolades, do not post something and ask for critique or opinion -- find a group of like-minded writers, doing it for fun, and share with them.

If, however, you do want to improve in the craft, you're going to need to get a thicker skin, quickly, because the only way to get better -- in addition to writing more and more and more -- is to have people read your piece and give you their objective critiques.

Again, my comments are only relevant if you're trying for publication. If you're not, stop asking others for critique and just enjoy what you write and how you write it. There is no harm at all in that, and also no need for anyone to spend time critiquing (because it IS time consuming). There are plenty of outlets where you could post and get readers who will not be critiquers.

Don't post your stuff on teh interwebs for criticism if you're not ready to hear what complete strangers will say. If you only want praise, show it to your friends and family.

People like you are the reason I don't do much critting. Why spend my time offering my comments, only to have you (generic 'you') run off to another forum and call me a jerk?

I have to agree and disagree with the other posters.

The commentary was blunt, but it was good commentary. Have your emotional reaction, then come back to it with a clearer head and look at what is being said. I've found throughout my years that the critique that hurts most is usually the critique I most need to hear. Hard to live with fact of life, but you can get used to it.

However, the part I find insulting and objectionable is the "let me tell you how I would do it" section. I was taught that the purpose of critique is to help the author tell THEIR story, not inflict them with how YOU would tell THEIR story. That kind of thing never washes with me and I'd completely disregard that portion of the commentary--but just that portion of the commentary, not the entire thing.

Blue,

Why is it so vital to you that you get immediate reaction, preferably positive, to this piece that you place it here in AW's SYW and now another forum? And possibly even more?

Stop worrying about what others think of you or your writing and just write! AFTER you've completed a piece and revised it endlessly, THEN ask for feedback on it. As others have pointed out, the piece still needs work.

I have a piece I've posted in one of the SYW forums (one that requires a second password) and have received several comments about it. I've used those comments to rewrite the piece into something even better. And I appreciated the comments, too.

I gathered from your post in SYW that you're worried about what readers will think of YOU in regards to your story content. That's something you just can't worry about. I've written some pretty twisted stuff in my own novel, but it's a story. It's fiction. Crazy wacky things happen in fiction.

If you're coming up with some pretty twisted things in your fiction, then that's awesome! It shows imagination. But if you don't want to offend anyone with your writing and you're worried what other people will think, then maybe you shouldn't share it with anyone. Just write it all in a notebook and hide it under your bed.

I've read a lot of very twisted shit in modern fiction. But twisted is fun. Don't let anyone hold you back.

allen

I'm gonna chime in some more. As others have pointed out, he does have some valid points that you should consider. Maybe he's not a jerk in real life, and maybe he was honestly just trying to help you, but in my opinion he was still going about it the wrong way. The first third or so of his crit is just blunt, but there's nothing extremely wrong with it. It's a bit teethy, but nothing that sends up red flags.

As DeleyanLee pointed out, the part that got me was this:

If I was writing this piece, I would have done things differently. I would have written it in third person, for a start. I would have had master talking to the old man long before lily arrived on the scene. He would have called master by his first name. Master would have told him that lily was going to kill him. The old man would have said she wouldn’t.

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If nothing else, this is just the mark of a bad critiquer. I don't see many critiques around AW that go like that. He's not pointing out problems with your handling of POV; he's just outright telling you which you should use. He's not telling you how to improve the way you tell the story, but he's telling you how the story should be told differently, how he sees it. None of that is any of his business.

Is his critique out of line? There, I think it is.

Does that invalidate his points about your writing? Not necessarily. Don't dwell on how he said he'd write it, but his other problems are still valid things to think about, even if you end up deciding he's wrong. But I do think he went about it the wrong way, anyway.

I'll also say yes, I found it disturbing, but not inappropriately so. Nothing I wouldn't expect from a fellow writer. I'm not gonna be sending you off to a mental ward. I imagine it's supposed to be somewhat disturbing. It's not the kind of thing that would make me stop reading. I like disturbing.

BlueLucario said:

Linda, I didn't see any suggestions from him. He went on rambling of how HE wrote it. To make things more subtle, he could of at least say "How you should write" or "May I suggest how you should" He probably didn't mean it, but when he said "How "I"(emphasis on the I) write, it just makes him sound arrogant. He tells me to write in third person but he doesn't explain why? He just says, write in third-person.

I know that he's trying to help. I wasn't being defensive at all, I just feel unsure.However, if he's going to crit someone else work, he could have at LEAST elaborated on what he's saying. Unlike him, you guys used my excerpts as an example of what you are trying to say, but he just says"YOU'RE CHARACTERS ARE TWO DIMENSIONAL AND NOT BELIEVABLE". He just says it. He didn't explain how or why, he just said it.


He also said "YOU'RE DIALOGUE IS UNNATURAL AND FORCED" Maybe so. You guys taught me A LOT about dialogue and all that, but he doesn't use my quotes to show me what's wrong.

He doesn't tell me what to do to improve or fix the problems. If he isn't detailed on that, how is that helping me as a writer? It's like he wrote this stuff off the top of his head.


Overall, he's just saying "You're writing is wrong. You should copy how I write my stories."

I'm not going to start a fight because he probably didn't mean what he said, so I'm asking him questions nicely.

I find this crit very odd is all. It's the opposite of what YOU guys said about this piece.

He did not answer my main question at all. "Do you find my piece of writing disturbing?"

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You're looking for him to tell you HOW to fix it. A critique isn't a step-by-step instruction. It's someone's opinion of whether elements of a story or the story itself works. It's up to the writer of the story to interpret those comments, take what is useful, think about what might be useful but maybe they can't apply yet, and discard comments that clearly don't fit.

Linda Adams said:

You're looking for him to tell you HOW to fix it. A critique isn't a step-by-step instruction. It's someone's opinion of whether elements of a story or the story itself works. It's up to the writer of the story to interpret those comments, take what is useful, think about what might be useful but maybe they can't apply yet, and discard comments that clearly don't fit.

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Linda's right. It isn't his job to tell you how to fix it.

He did try to tell you how to fix it in a very roundabout "this is how I would do it" unhelpful way. But that's not helpful to the way you want to do it, now, is it?

In my humble opinion, the best thing you can do is ignore his "how I would do it" comments for now, and see if you can figure out how to improve on any of the things he didn't believe worked on your own. If there's anything you like in the way he would do it, maybe think about it. If there isn't, don't give it a second thought.

BlueLucario said:

Linda, I didn't see any suggestions from him. He went on rambling of how HE wrote it. To make things more subtle, he could of at least say "How you should write" or "May I suggest how you should" He probably didn't mean it, but when he said "How "I"(emphasis on the I) write, it just makes him sound arrogant. He tells me to write in third person but he doesn't explain why? He just says, write in third-person.

I know that he's trying to help. I wasn't being defensive at all, I just feel unsure.However, if he's going to crit someone else work, he could have at LEAST elaborated on what he's saying. Unlike him, you guys used my excerpts as an example of what you are trying to say, but he just says"YOU'RE CHARACTERS ARE TWO DIMENSIONAL AND NOT BELIEVABLE". He just says it. He didn't explain how or why, he just said it.


He also said "YOU'RE DIALOGUE IS UNNATURAL AND FORCED" Maybe so. You guys taught me A LOT about dialogue and all that, but he doesn't use my quotes to show me what's wrong.

He doesn't tell me what to do to improve or fix the problems. If he isn't detailed on that, how is that helping me as a writer? It's like he wrote this stuff off the top of his head.


Overall, he's just saying "You're writing is wrong. You should copy how I write my stories."

I'm not going to start a fight because he probably didn't mean what he said, so I'm asking him questions nicely.

I find this crit very odd is all. It's the opposite of what YOU guys said about this piece.

He did not answer my main question at all. "Do you find my piece of writing disturbing?"

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You are complaining on a public forum about a stranger -- who took the time to try to help you -- not giving it to you in the manner in which you demand your feedback.

Stop posting to public forums and demanding the feedback come as you, personally, want it. Find some beta readers and train them in how to give you feedback.

And, why are you still demanding that everyone feel the same way about your piece? This is art -- it is open to interpretation. For every person who loves it, there will be three others who hate it.

As for someone saying "this is how I would do it", that's a style of critique. It supposed to soften the blow, because the person is saying that if it were them, this is how they'd do it, but, CLEARLY you, the writer, will do it how you see fit. It's supposed to help, by showing a way someone else might execute. It's sort of unspoken that you, the owner of the material, will execute however you see fit.

Seriously, this is why so many don't bother to do critiques, as Sid said. This person put time and effort in, and apparently others have over here, too, and you're focused soley on demanding to know why the critiquer didn't come across like your grandmother. Or answer your question, as if he had an obligation to do so.

BTW, you may not mean to be, but you are indeed coming across as completely defensive. And demanding. And very inexperienced. Unless you are PAYING someone to do a critique, they don't have any obligation to do anything, including be as helpful as this original critter was. You are making demands of a FREE SERVICE done by, essentially, VOLUNTEERS. Truly, take a step back and listen to yourself. And, again, grow the thick skin or do not post for critique -- as a favor to yourself and anyone who might spend the time critiquing for you.

I didn't crit you, Blue. Me and the person on your link are different people.

Siddow said:

I didn't crit you, Blue. Me and the person on your link are different people.

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You're always a different person.

Blue, you might want to read Veinglory's advice for people seeking crits: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66193

As a critter, I try not to tell others how "I would write it." I think when writers do that, it's more damaging than helpful. Offering suggestions and pointers for improvement is fine, but I usually shy away from anyone who utters the words, "I would have written it this way..."

That said, having thick skin is very important in any creative endeavor. Take what you can and discard whatever you deem useless. Don't take anything too personally.

BlueLucario said:

Although you DID explain to me what was wrong with my story, but you didn't tell me how to fix it.

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How to fix it is up to the author, not up to the critiquer. To get an in-depth crit at all is a good thing, without expecting the corrections to be presented as well. When my critiquer Jordan tells me that a plot point or description doesn't work for him, it's my responsibility to evaluate his criticism (though it's usually valid), figure out why it doesn't work and then correct the problem. I'm happy if he makes a suggestion, but I don't require it of him.

I understand that you're a new writer and therefore would benefit from extra help. But you can't expect it. If someone carefully explains how to fix your mistakes in SYW (heck, scratch the "if", it's already happened), that's great. But not everyone can take as much time and effort. I'm sorry to be blunt, Blue, but you're coming off as high-maintenance. The skills you need to improve as a writer are going to be developed from extensive reading, completing a novel, editing it and then putting it up for critiques - right now, you're doing the last step first.

Blue I agree that the guy sounded arrogant. But he did make a few good points in there. So don't give him power and get mad at him, but instead ignore the mean stuff and focus on the few points he made, which were, to be honest, very similar to other points people here have made about your work here.

When I told you to stop asking questions you replied and asked me when exactly you were asking questions. I never answered. Now I will.

The problem I am seeing is that you are expecting people to explain every little thing to you. So when they say the characters sound two dimensional, you ask what do you mean. They explain that the reason for that may be the dialogue is forced. You ask, what do you mean. They say, listen to how other people talk, they don't talk in complete sentences. You ask, what do you mean.

There is only so much we can do for you. We understand that things are harder for you than some when it comes to writing, but you have to start thinking for yourself. Trying to solve problems for yourself. You can't expect us to do all your work for you. This critter didn't go into detail how to solve the problems, but pointed out what they were. I think he was expecting you to think about the problems and solve them yourself. Next time you want to ask, what do you mean, why not instead ask that of yourself, and try to answer your own question. Why do you think he said what he said? Why do you think you have the problems you do in your writing?