Literary horror?

BarbaraKE · Nov 25, 2007

Hi all - My novel has two main characters, one of which is a vampire. So when I started sending out queries, I classified it as 'horror'. (I didn't really feel it was 'horror' but everything I've read on the subject said that 'vampire = horror'.)

I sent queries to about 20 agents. (I researched them, they all handled horror.) Got a couple of personalized rejections, one request for a partial (still out), the rest were all form rejections or silence.)

Finally got brave and posted the beginning on a writer's forum for critique (not here). An agent contacted me and asked for the first 100 pages. (Turns out a client of his had read the excerpt and told him about it.) He responded with a very nice letter praising the writing but basically saying it was too 'literary' for him. But he did agree with my thought that it definitely wasn't 'horror' and that he would classify it as 'literary' (or perhaps 'historical' since it is set in 1870 Europe).

(He also gave me a referral to a <founding partner> at a <very prestigious literary agency>. I sent a query letter to him this past week. Keep your fingers crossed for me.)

So I've evidently written a 'literary horror' novel. At first I took that as a compliment but I'm now getting the impression that 'literary' is not necessarily a good thing. I thought it meant 'well-written' but it seems that different people have different interpretations of the word. (The adjectives 'pretentious' and 'experimental' come to mind.)

Is there any market at all for 'literary horror'? Or is that just a kind way of saying 'nicely written but unsellable'?

Continuing the thought - if 'literary horror' is unsellable, how do you make something 'more commercial'?

Siddow · Nov 25, 2007

I read somewhere the other day where an agent was looking for literary horror. I'll see if I can locate it before you sell the book, hehe.

I take it to mean a more character-driven story than an all-out gore and fright fest. I hope it's selling--I'm working on a character-driven horror novel right now.

Cranky · Nov 25, 2007

Siddow said:
I read somewhere the other day where an agent was looking for literary horror. I'll see if I can locate it before you sell the book, hehe.

I take it to mean a more character-driven story than an all-out gore and fright fest. I hope it's selling--I'm working on a character-driven horror novel right now.

Then that makes three of us. Carving out a little niche, ain't we?

Siddow · Nov 25, 2007

Yeah! Let's flood the market...we can be the cool new kids!

Cranky · Nov 25, 2007

Sign me up!

Seriously, I'd wondered about that, though. I want my baddie (also a vamp, I should add) to be very frightening, but I don't want a lot of gore, etc.

Hmm. On second thought, I believe mine's too thrillerish, though. Not enough atmosphere to make it literary.

Sigh. I'm forever doomed to the outcast table in the lunchroom.

LOL

virtue_summer · Nov 25, 2007

My own current novel isn't typical horror. It's got little blood and gore and is definitely characer driven. It does include a satanic witches coven, though, which is something you expect in a horror novel. I don't know if it would be classified as literary (I doubt it), but I have had some of the same problem you have in figuring out what to classify it as. It's not that I'm against horror, since I do write horror as well, but I'm not sure this is it. I've heard the term supernatural thriller, and think that might be a good term for it (and it does seem to fit in with some other stuff I've read that's called supernatural thrillers), but then I don't know who to approach, agents who represent horror and supernatural stuff and who might be disappointed by the lack of explicit gore and violence, or the agents who represent thrillers and supspense and might be turned off by the supernatural elements. I have yet to see an agent list themselves as looking for supernatural thrillers. So rest assured you're not alone but the fact that these agents are interested enough to try and help you find a place for your novel is a very good sign, and makes you luckier than some.

qweenie · Nov 25, 2007

Oh man....I'm so with y'all on this one.

My novel is a vampire novel too, but I'm not sure I'd call it horror. There are definitely some horrifying moments and I'm having a lot of fun making my villain as nasty as possible, but scares aren't really my focus. I'm more interested in how a society of immortals would organise itself (the vampire class system I've dreamt up is kind of....involved) and it's definitely more of a character driven piece than something that's just all gore and scares.

It's funny, I've just been toiling away on it, and never really considered that the lack of frights might make it more difficult to sell. D'oh!

BarbaraKE · Nov 25, 2007

Cranky - Don't worry, we'll keep a seat for you at the lunchtable.

Perks · Nov 25, 2007

I certainly like the sound of literary horror, where 'literary' is taken to mean written with a deference to lyrical word-choice, deft imagery and well-placed (as opposed to gratuitous) gore and chills.

I loves me some horror and I loves me some pretty words. I can't see a down side to getting them together and selling the children.

Good luck!

zahra · Nov 25, 2007

Who - apart from youse guys - do we consider to be writers of 'literary horror'?

To be honest, if I pick up a horror book, I want great characters and writing, AND great scares. I don't think one works without the other. If a horror book doesn't deliver on the characters, and is clunky, I'll just write it off as a bad book. But if it's marked 'horror' and there's no scares, I'll feel cheated and hood-winked, which is worse.

SpookyWriter · Nov 25, 2007

zahra said:
Who - apart from youse guys - do we consider to be writers of 'literary horror'?

To be honest, if I pick up a horror book, I want great characters and writing, AND great scares. I don't think one works without the other. If a horror book doesn't deliver on the characters, and is clunky, I'll just write it off as a bad book. But if it's marked 'horror' and there's no scares, I'll feel cheated and hood-winked, which is worse.

But what scares you? Bugs, creeps hanging out at the park late at night, dead bodies, the hand that touches your shoulder just as you get out of the shower, or what the FedX guy delivers in a box dripping with blood?

I think literary horror has many meanings, but generally the story is well written and contains sufficient horrific events to keep the reader in terror or suspense. Some folks are easily scared by the most serene of terrible circumstances. The story should be one where the reader is drawn into it and has a reasonable expectation of fear that something bad is going to happen.

The nice thing about writing horror is that we experience so many events in our lives that are easily transferred to stories which remind our readers what terror awaits them in the real world.

zahra · Nov 25, 2007

Well, the best horror certainly has an intelligent core idea, an interesting question to ask and maybe answer.

BarbaraKE · Nov 25, 2007

To be honest, if I pick up a horror book, I want great characters and writing, AND great scares. I don't think one works without the other.

I think everyone would agree with that statement. But I think it's a hard combination to find. And - even worse - it seems that many writers think 'scares' equals 'blood-and-gore'.

I'm not into explicit descriptions of people ripping off heads or blood splattering around. (Don't like it in movies either.) And I think 'scaring' someone is very different from 'horrifying' them (and both are different from 'grossing-them-out'). I don't know exactly how to define the difference but I like to think my novel is 'horrifying' rather than 'scary'.

qweenie · Nov 25, 2007

For me what's scary about vampires is that they kind of represent the dark side of the human psyche - abandoning restraint, giving in to every desire, committing acts that society on the whole would look to with repulsion. As writer it's fun to explore the idea that, really, they aren't all that different to us. It's like holding up a mirror and asking the question - is this what you'd become if you were in this situation?

The loss of humanity is definitely a big part of my story - so perhaps more psychological horror than anything else...?

BarbaraKE · Nov 25, 2007

qweenie said:
For me what's scary about vampires is that they kind of represent the dark side of the human psyche - abandoning restraint, giving in to every desire, committing acts that society on the whole would look to with repulsion. As writer it's fun to explore the idea that, really, they aren't all that different to us. It's like holding up a mirror and asking the question - is this what you'd become if you were in this situation?

My vampire is a little different in that he *is* us. He's human, albeit one that needs to drink blood to survive. (And he lives much longer, is bigger, stronger, etc.) But he is definitely human.

For example, he doesn't anguish over killing people. He does it to survive. Do I agonize every time I eat a hamburger because a cow died to provide the meat? No. And I don't even need to eat meat, I could survive quite nicely as a vegetarian. So millions of cows die every year merely because humans like the way they taste. You say a cow is not a human - you're right. But people kill each other every day because they live in a different country or belong to the 'wrong' religion or simply for the twenty dollars in their wallet. And no jury in the world would convict you of murder if you killed someone to save your own life. Is what he does so different?

A big part of my story involves the human main character's shock as he slowly realizes that the aspects of vampirism he condemns are actually 'human' characteristics.

sanssouci · Nov 25, 2007

It's funny because most people consider the work of Bram Stoker and Mary Shelly 'literary' not horror. Back then vampires and monsters were all characteristic of romanticism and it had little to do with scaring people (at least not in the same way that horror is meant to scare us today).

SpookyWriter · Nov 25, 2007

I'd venture to guess that scaring people today is a bit harder with the invention of radio, movie, and television. People see more violence on television today than was possible fifty or a hundred and fifty years ago.

What scares people today? Rowdy neighbors? Church or religion? Co-workers? There's really not a lot of fresh ideas for scaring people and providing an outlet for their inner desires. So, I think the literary horror is a venue that can take social conflicts and inject the horrific elements necessary to make a readable horror story.

The vampire story isn't really new and I believe exploited to the point that what else can someone contribute that is fresh and original?

But we have a whole society of individuals who can scare us into believing we are not safe in our own home.

qweenie · Nov 25, 2007

Do I agonize every time I eat a hamburger because a cow died to provide the meat? No. And I don't even need to eat meat, I could survive quite nicely as a vegetarian.

True...but I'm guessing you don't actually walk into the abattoir and slaughter the cows yourself

Still, it's an interesting way of looking at it. In my story, my main female character is turned into a vampire right at the beginning of the story, so I think it would be a little bit unnatural if she just started killing right away and felt no guilt about it. Her maker, on the other hand, is over four hundred years old so for him killing a human is like squashing a cockroach. It's a bit of foreshadowing - she looks at him and sees what she might possibly become, and the dilemma is does she fight it or just give in to the inevitable, abandon all the guilt and repression, and possibly be happier that way.

But that's just a small part of it. My characters are pretty much all vampires and one of the ideas I'm working with is that a vampire is, to a certain extent, a product of his era. So I have a four hundred year old vampire who was, in his human life, a European aristocrat. So you could say it's more natural for him to have a disdain for life, and he doesn't just kill without guilt but he actually takes pleasure from it. Then I have a younger vampire who was turned during the early 1930s - he's a lot more genteel and while he will kill if his survival depends on it, he prefers not to. It's definitely interesting to think of how the era of their turning might shape my characters.

(writing this makes me realise how fookin complicated what i'm doing is, that doesn't even come close to summing it all up *lol*)

Cranky · Nov 25, 2007

SpookyWriter said:
I'd venture to guess that scaring people today is a bit harder with the invention of radio, movie, and television. People see more violence on television today than was possible fifty or a hundred and fifty years ago.

What scares people today? Rowdy neighbors? Church or religion? Co-workers? There's really not a lot of fresh ideas for scaring people and providing an outlet for their inner desires. So, I think the literary horror is a venue that can take social conflicts and inject the horrific elements necessary to make a readable horror story.

The vampire story isn't really new and I believe exploited to the point that what else can someone contribute that is fresh and original?

But we have a whole society of individuals who can scare us into believing we are not safe in our own home.

Well, I am trying to be original-ish, lol. Mine is sort of a scientific take on it. Think Dr. Frankenstein makes (yes, "makes", not "meets") Dracula in the 21st century...with a bunch of ethical scientific delimmas, what pushes someone over into serial killer territory, etc.

None of this is exactly breaking new ground, you've got a point there. I don't know that it matters, however. It's all in the execution, so I think when writing horror, you've really got to go into it with your "A" game, because we so often use archetypes like vampires and werewolves, and sundry other things that "go bump in the night." It may not be fresh and original, but I think there's still plenty of room to be scary in an interesting way...

My .02.

BarbaraKE · Nov 25, 2007

qweenie said:
True...but I'm guessing you don't actually walk into the abattoir and slaughter the cows yourself

Actually, I grew up in a rural area and my father was the local butcher. Many people raised their own cows or pigs for meat and I often accompanied my father when he went out and helped with the butchering. I've never actually killed a cow or pig (because the farmers generally shot the animals themselves) but I have killed quite a few chickens. And I've helped butcher probably dozens of cows/pigs.

(I wish I knew how to insert a smiley face with a tongue sticking out. <grin>)

It's only been relatively recently (historically speaking) that people have become divorced from the actual process of butchering their own meat. Now it comes in nicely-wrapped plastic trays in the store.

My book is set in 1870. People then didn't have the same squemishness (sp?) about killing things as we have now.

qweenie · Nov 25, 2007

Urgh. It's definitely a huge worry - I've been reading as much vampire fiction as I can to avoid committing inadvertent plagarism (speaking of which, Cranky, have you read "Fledgling" by Octavia Butler? She goes into the genetic engineering side a little bit - her main character is a vampire who has been engineered with negro skin to protect her in daylight) - inspiring but also not a little bit daunting!

But I'm trying not to put too much pressure on myself - I have my story in place, and I'm pretty confident that there are elements to it that are new and different. I'm really keeping the focus at the moment more on creating real, believable characters and also keeping my plot (which could be politely described as "convuluted" *rolls eyes*) under control and moving in the right direction. Hopefully what I'll end with is something readable and interesting, even if not particularly revolutionary.

ETA...

Actually, I grew up in a rural area and my father was the local butcher.

Figures! That'll learn me to be a smart ass, won't it? :ROFL:

Yeah, I would think in 1870 people would definitely have far fewer qualms than we do about killing. In that context, your character's attitudes make a lot of sense.

Eeeheeee! It's so interesting to read what everybody else is doing!

Cranky · Nov 25, 2007

qweenie said:
(speaking of which, Cranky, have you read "Fledgling" by Octavia Butler? She goes into the genetic engineering side a little bit - her main character is a vampire who has been engineered with negro skin to protect her in daylight) - inspiring but also not a little bit daunting!

Nope, I haven't but thanks for the tip. That said, luckily for me, that's not the gene aspect in mine. My vamp is an accidental vampire. He wasn't meant to be one at all, and well...it gets complicated after that.

Kerr · Nov 26, 2007

My opinion, for what its worth, is that blood and gore are the easy way out in today's fast-food society. If a writer manages several solid characters in a plot-driven novel, the reader will follow those characters' emotional state, feeling what the writer demands. Write it well and if there is no exact category--there soon will be. But yes, there must be fear involved when it comes to horror. I don't need to see blood, or body parts no longer attached for this to happen. Fear happens during the build up, when the mind begins to move ahead wondering where the writer is leading. If I pick up a book and all I get is gore, its quickly cast aside in favor of better writing.

HorrorWriter · Nov 26, 2007

Someone mentioned gore and violence as horror. That's a very small element of "some" horror. Horror is what scares you---and different things scare different people. In any case, as for literary horror, there are two authors that come to mind. THE HISTORIAN by Elizabeth Kostova, and everything by literary horror author Tananarive Due. Mrs. Due does not use explicit gore or violence to scare you---she's great! Hope that gives you some idea, Barbara.

I run the gamut on horror. I write whatever I feel adds to the story. I really don't care about classifications, I just write and allow other folks to label it. That's why I chose the name you see to the left, because I'm always labeled as such.

BarbaraKE · Nov 26, 2007

But yes, there must be fear involved when it comes to horror.

I think I would have to disagree with that statement. The feelings might be experienced at the same time but (IMHO) they are distinct and different feelings.

Examples...

I was approaching my car one night in a deserted parking garage. I walked around the back of the car and almost ran into a man who was crouched there trying to jimmy the door lock. I turned and ran (and probably would have screamed if I could have gotten any air into my lungs). That's a case where I was 'scared' but not 'horrified'.

Another time I was driving on the interstate (again at night). There were just a few cars on the road. Something odd was going on up ahead - I couldn't really see what was going on but it looked like a big dark mass. I slowed up and stopped when I got close enough to see that it was an upside-down car. I just stared at it for a few seconds trying to figure out what had happened (hey, it was late and my mind wasn't working too well). In my carlights, I could see a big rock in the road. I walked closer and suddenly realized that the rock was a human head. (I kid you not.) I was 'horrified' but not 'scared'.

By this point, several other cars had stopped. I could see reflections from the road's surface. Then I realized the reflections were caused by spilt gas. I remember glancing back (this all seemed to happen in slow motion) and a man was approaching, curious to see what had happened. He had a lit cigarette in his hand. That's when I got 'scared'. I yelled at him that there was gas all around and took off running.

I think people get 'scared' when harm might come to themselves - and 'horror' when it's already come to someone else.

Literary horror?

BarbaraKE

Siddow

I'm super! Thanks for asking

Cranky

Siddow

I'm super! Thanks for asking

Cranky

virtue_summer

Always learning

qweenie

BarbaraKE

Perks

delicate #!&@*#! flower

zahra

Was Zahra; lost profile - REBORN!

SpookyWriter

zahra

Was Zahra; lost profile - REBORN!

BarbaraKE

qweenie

BarbaraKE

sanssouci

SpookyWriter

qweenie

Cranky

BarbaraKE

qweenie

Cranky

Kerr

I vant to bite you

HorrorWriter

It's a new dawn. It's a new day.

BarbaraKE