The Value of Agents (was Pet Peeve #1)

Azraelsbane said:

I think it's pretty obvious they're REALLY stretching things. I mean, William Blake and Lord Byron... Those were the two that made me lol.

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How long d'you suppose it will be before someone adds "God" to the list? The Bible was originally published without one of those Terrible Elitist Work-Destroying Big Publishers, right?

And if God did it...

Azraelsbane said:

It's very disheartening, but I'm determined to try my hand at the traditional way until my soul is a dead, aching thing or I get picked up by an agent. Here's hopin'.

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Agents reject more often than publishers, so don't put all your eggs in one basket. Spam it out there to everyone you can think of. I must have sent my first novel out to about 200 places, before it was finally published. But meanwhile, I was busy diversifying as much as I could with different genres, short stories etc. At least that way you have something to show at the end of the day. Publication by smaller houses etc. rather than pinning all your hopes on one manuscript. And ironically, it was one of those shorter pieces, published on a lowly ezine (LOL) that went on to become a bigger hit than the original novel. The important thing is getting it out there where it can be read. There are so many different routes to "success." Yet, writers' sites often promote the belief that there's only one.

DecemberQuinn said:

How long d'you suppose it will be before someone adds "God" to the list? The Bible was originally published without one of those Terrible Elitist Work-Destroying Big Publishers, right?

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At least they didn't include John Grisham.

- Victoria

Kendra said:

http://www.simonteakettle.com/famousauthors.htm

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...And there's Grisham.

Aside from the fallacy about Grisham, Kendra, this is essentially the same list you posted above. It's basically irrelevent, and I don't know why you keep posting it in its various forms, as though repeating the same lie over and over makes it true.

What's your point? That sometimes it took a few tries for writers to get published? That writing involves talent, hard work, and luck? That even great writers sometimes had to struggle? Wow, I'd never heard that.

Quite frankly, I find it extremely difficult to believe a commercially published author, as you claim to be, would be so eager to champion self-publishing. You do aspiring writers a great disservice in doing so.

Kendra said:

It spares an author the agony of the submission process, which can involve years of waiting.

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Is the author doing nothing but waiting during those years, or is she working on her next novel, improving her skills and reading up about where she might send her next manuscript?

He can get in there and promote his book while it's still timely, and he doesn't have to alter it to suit someone else.

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I'll be happy to alter my book if an agent or editor points out anything that is significantly wrong with it. To refuse to alter your book under those circumstances sounds like Golden Word syndrome to me.

In other words, he remains in control throughout the process.

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There's a lot about this process that I am not familiar with - cover design, marketing and so on. Therefore, I'd be happy to leave that in the hands of people who do that for a living. I don't want to be in control of something I don't know much about, and I'd prefer to spend my time on writing.

I suspect that for all these reasons, self-publishing would not work for me.

DecemberQuinn said:

I find it extremely difficult to believe a commercially published author, as you claim to be, would be so eager to champion self-publishing.

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(LOL)With the emphasis on "claim." Golly, you've outed me, December. PULEAZE don't tell anyone.

Queen of Swords said:

Is the author doing nothing but waiting during those years, or is she working on her next novel, improving her skills and reading up about where she might send her next manuscript?



I'll be happy to alter my book if an agent or editor points out anything that is significantly wrong with it. To refuse to alter your book under those circumstances sounds like Golden Word syndrome to me.



There's a lot about this process that I am not familiar with - cover design, marketing and so on. Therefore, I'd be happy to leave that in the hands of people who do that for a living. I don't want to be in control of something I don't know much about, and I'd prefer to spend my time on writing.

I suspect that for all these reasons, self-publishing would not work for me.

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Oh it's not for everyone. I've never gone that route myself. It involves mega marketing skills, which I don't have. I'm a writer, not a salesman. However, it works well under certain circumstances. It's just another option, and there can never be too many of those.

DecemberQuinn said:

What's your point?

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I'm wondering what Kendra's point is myself.

It began as "Agents aren't all they're cracked up to be," but then, strangely, it moved into the benefits of self-publishing. Red flag, there: a person defending self-publishing on one hand and bashing major publishing on the other would seem to have an agenda. (Emphasis there on the word "seem.")

I guess I don't understand the direction this thread took, really. One reason Kendra has been sort of mauled on this thread -- even though she has made some decent points -- is that her angle is vague.

Will Lavender said:

I guess I don't understand the direction this thread took, really. One reason Kendra has been sort of mauled on this thread -- even though she has made some decent points -- is that her angle is vague.

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It has veered off the topic from the original post, but then most threads -- and conversations -- tend to do so. My *angle* is all about choice. So in that respect, I suppose it is vague. If you are looking for razor sharp *angles* and everything in black and white, then you'd be dealing in absolutes.

As for being "mauled." Well, when one comes onto a writers' site and dares to say that agents are not all they're cracked up to be, one expects a certain hostility. After all, it's a bit like going into church and shouting, "There is no God." And, of course, daring to suggest that self-publishing has worked rather nicely for some, is adding more heresy to the mix.

So bloodied, but still standing, I limp wearily into my corner.

Kendra said:

As for being "mauled." Well, when one comes onto a writers' site and dares to say that agents are not all they're cracked up to be, one expects a certain hostility. After all, it's a bit like going into church and shouting, "There is no God." And, of course, daring to suggest that self-publishing has worked rather nicely for some, is adding more heresy to the mix.

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Bad analogy.

If "God" can be metaphorically substituted here for a good agent, then I have seen His (Her, in my case) face. You, on the other hand, have not -- as you are, I assume, agentless. You are no mere atheist. You are one who has walked into a church full of folks who've seen the face of heaven and denied its very existence.

Okay, enough of that.

I think the original argument has to do with personal relationships. You sort of cast agents as money-hungry at best and fiendish at worst. Those of us who have agents that we like as businesspeople and people in general know better.

Now, I think I've circled the thread back around full circle. My work here is done.

Will Lavender said:

-- as you are, I assume, agentless.

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No, your assumption is incorrect. I have an agent for a few out-of-print titles, in a different genre from what I usually write. I just can't be bothered hunting around for publishers for them. I'd much rather be WRITING!

Cheers

P.S. I thought this might be of interest. PanMacmillan is one of the major publishers in the UK. They accept electronic submissions, and you don't need an agent.

http://www.panmacmillan.com/Feature...Macmillan New Writing submissions information

"Thanks, Kendra. Interesting stuff."
"Nah, don't mention it. Anytime."

Kendra said:

P.S. I thought this might be of interest. PanMacmillan is one of the major publishers in the UK. They accept electronic submissions, and you don't need an agent.

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The guidelines you linked to are for Pan Macmillan's New Writing Program, which has different submission guidelines than the rest of the company.

- Victoria

Die thread!!!! Die I tell you. DIE!!!!

(One last sputter)

The danger of pet peeves is that they make one peevish... Not a pretty sight.

If every self-published author created the works of art that William Blake did, the world would be an immensely richer place.

Unfortunately, most self-pubbed authors blend the artistic sensiblities of William Shatner with the lyrical abilities of Robert Blake.

Kendra said:

And, of course, daring to suggest that self-publishing has worked rather nicely for some, is adding more heresy to the mix.

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I don't find that heretical. I think the list of people who self-published isn't relevant in certain ways, and I don't think self-publishing is for everyone, for various reasons. Some of the claims or assertions on the websites you linked to also seem to apply to anyone who has Golden Word syndrome or who doesn't intend to do anything but sit around waiting until their first novel is published.

Self-publishing works under certain circumstances. It's not a good idea under others.

In the vast majority of cases, self-publishing (and I say this with all due respect) is the byproduct of either impatience or delusion.

One Disclaimer: I'm not talking about the folks who are publishing a dozen copies of their memoirs (or cookbooks) to give as Christmas presents for family members, etc. For these things, lulu, etc, is perfect!

Another exception is if you're a wacko-pastor-whose-church-has-its-own-bookstore and you've got a killer way of distributing books to your cult-like-congregation-who'll-happily-drink-whatever-KoolAid-you're-selling. POD and self-publishing (I would think) is probably perfect for that, too.

rwam said:

In the vast majority of cases, self-publishing (and I say this with all due respect) is the byproduct of either impatience or delusion.

One Disclaimer: I'm not talking about the folks who are publishing a dozen copies of their memoirs (or cookbooks) to give as Christmas presents for family members, etc. For these things, lulu, etc, is perfect!

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Impatience, delusion, or not understanding enough about the publishing industry.

jamiehall said:

Impatience, delusion, or not understanding enough about the publishing industry.

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Oh right, the Celestine Prophecy, which sold over 20 million copies and was translated into 34 different languages is a prime example of this. I can't decide though, whether the author was impatient, delusional, or he just didn't *understand* enough about the publishing industry when he decided to self-publish!

If you saw the original quote that Jamiehall was adding onto you would have seen the term "vast majority" used. Vast majority does not mean all. There are exceptions to every rule, and success stories within the self-publishing world. No one has every disputed this fact. They were disputing a list which circulates as evidence of how self-publishing is actually lucrative when the list is actually greatly flawed. Posters here have explained how.

You are determined to think ill of the publishing world and of our intelligence. I personally have asked you a number of questions in order to get the dialogue moving forward but you refuse to answer. In fact you conveniently ignore those posts. And each time you do answer someone it's with a mocking superior attitude. No one here has actually said that what you are trying to say, that there are many avenues out there, is wrong. But much of your information that you have used to back up that statement has been incorrect. Despite the fact that you haven't actually proven your case, we have agreed with you. What's your point with all this?

Toothpaste said:

You are determined to think ill of the publishing world and of our intelligence. I personally have asked you a number of questions in order to get the dialogue moving forward but you refuse to answer. In fact you conveniently ignore those posts. And each time you do answer someone it's with a mocking superior attitude. No one here has actually said that what you are trying to say, that there are many avenues out there, is wrong. But much of your information that you have used to back up that statement has been incorrect. Despite the fact that you haven't actually proven your case, we have agreed with you. What's your point with all this?

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Duh...

Wow.

And I was worried you were going to respond with an articulate well thought out response and make me feel a bit guilty for being slightly harsh.

But "Duh" it is then.

Toothpaste said:

Wow.

And I was worried you were going to respond with an articulate well thought out response and make me feel a bit guilty for being slightly harsh.

But "Duh" it is then.

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(LOL) No worries.

Kendra's saying "Duh" because she knows that we really do get her point--to have the last word. But the "Duh" is on you, Kendra, because in a moderated forum, the moderator gets the last word.

There's been some great discussion in this thread (which I'm re-titling to make it easier to find) but not much new has been posted for a while, and bickering isn't really very useful. I'm giving the thread a time-out by closing it temporarily. I'll reopen it in a week or two.

- Victoria