Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

If I had a beta reader who compared my work to Enya, I wouldn't evaluate that comment based on my opinion of Enya. I'd have to evaluate it based on the beta reader's opinion of Enya.

Fer instance, if it was that high school classmate of mine who used to sneak up to the top of the stairwell with me to sing through our favorites off Watermark and listen to our voices echo, I'd be very happy with that comment. But if it was that one college dorm neighbor I had who saw Enya on my CD rack and made barfing noises, I'd probably be disappointed.

In either case, running it by another beta or two would not be a bad idea. Enya isn't the only artist that different people have different opinions of, and your betas may be pointing out matters of style and taste rather than objective quality.

Fishing for betas

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone. Sounds like I should get over my bias against having writers be beta readers. Since I know where to find writers, eventually I'll be able to cajole one of them into being a beta.

Good point about looking at the Enya comment from the reader's perspective. It wasn't so much that I dislike Enya as the reader didn't offer her usual constructive criticism and I was at a loss . . . this is the most reliable reader I've ever had. But it wouldn't hurt to have a conversation about what exactly she means instead of responding in knee-jerk fashion.

Jennifer Lawler

As you know, Bob, Doyle and I are regular instructors at the Viable Paradise workshop.

On one occasion, Doyle had a particular author's story to comment. Her comment was "This story presses too many of my buttons. Have Maureen McHugh look at it."

For us, Sherwood Smith has been our beta reader since we were all unpublished together. We also found beta readers for each of our Mageworlds books who hadn't read any of the previous books, to see if they made sense to readers just coming to the series.

So it's an ongoing thing -- reliable beta readers who you've known for years, a rotating cast of new readers. Be aware that sometimes a story will hit a reader in a non-typical way. In that case get a second opinion.

A perennial thread-topic on the Novel board is "What's Wrong with [1st/2nd/3rd] Person [Omniscient/Limited/Closed/Open/Grayscale] [Past/Present/Future] POV?"

Usually we start with some vague reference to unnamed "experts" who allegedly say that a writer should [always/never] use the named POV. This is followed by a bunch of posts claiming that those [still unnamed] "experts" [do/do not] know what they're talking about.

Listen, people: Here's the actual answer. There is nothing wrong at all with any POV. It only has to be done well.

The difference between a query letter and a cover letter:

Query letter: "Would you like to see my book?"

Cover letter: "Here's my book. Hope you like it!"

James D. Macdonald said:

A perennial thread-topic on the Novel board is "What's Wrong with [1st/2nd/3rd] Person [Omniscient/Limited/Closed/Open/Grayscale] [Past/Present/Future] POV?"

Usually we start with some vague reference to unnamed "experts" who allegedly say that a writer should [always/never] use the named POV. This is followed by a bunch of posts claiming that those [still unnamed] "experts" [do/do not] know what they're talking about.

Listen, people: Here's the actual answer. There is nothing wrong at all with any POV. It only has to be done well.

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What about the mixing of Narratives.
I think my current WIP is well served by a mix of 3rd limited past and 3rd omni past.
What guidelines would you suggest in such a combo?

Raphee said:

What about the mixing of Narratives.
I think my current WIP is well served by a mix of 3rd limited past and 3rd omni past.
What guidelines would you suggest in such a combo?

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Guidelines? Don't confuse your readers. If it works, go with it.

I don't thing your two POV choices are necessarily incompatible. They seem to me like a film director's use of close-ups and wide shots; each serves a purpose if used with skill, but used clumsily they can detract from the story rather than adding to it.

I think the point of the perennial "[always|never] use [first/second/third]" is that some combinations can be tricky for beginners to pull off without more experience, and therefore should tend to be avoided until one has more writing chops.

Apart from that, to paraphrase a saying from science, "When a famous writer says something is absolutely true, he is almost certainly wrong."

Well, except Uncle Jim.

I don't say that anything is absolutely true, except that the Reader is King.

Uncle Jim, can you talk a little more about theme?

When I was writing the novel I'm currently trying to work up the courage to drop in the mail, I didn't pay attention to theme at all. I figured it would tend to itself. Well, I started reading through the archives of this thread in prep for my second book, and realized in the process that neglecting the theme might not have been the world's best idea.

Except that the novel's theme apparantly did attend to itself, because upon rereading, I've discovered that there is one. It showed itself in the back door while I wasn't looking and made breakfast for my subplots while I was tidying up the basement. It runs through the main plot and all of the subplots, and somehow managed to pull my MC through the big swampy middle without me noticing. Betas picked up on it too, so I'm pretty sure I'm not just making things up.

This concerns me because, if we're going with the railroad track analogy you used waaay upthread, there's something a bit disconcerting about a conductor leaning over the cowcatcher just before he pulls into the yard for the night and going "oh hey, check it out, Larry! There are tracks down there!"

so, my questions are these:
1. Has anyone else ever done that? Because I'm generally not as clever as I think I am, and I'm having a hard time believing that I managed to do by dumb accident what people far smarter than me do through careful planning and revision.

2. You mentioned upthread that it's never too early to get a theme started, and that you can be pretty bald in stating what it is. Is that preferable to being subtle about it? Mine starts to show up on the first page, but it doesn't really announce itself until a few chapters in.

and 3. On the surface, the plot and the theme have very little to do with each other (plot=someone's murdered and the mc figures out whodunnit and why; theme=loyalty must be earned). Is that the usual course of things, or are the two generally more closely linked?

My apologies in advance if your foot's already a bit sore from kicking this particular ex-horse.

A previous thread on theme may be of some use.

that's actually extremely useful. Thank you.

I usually find theme by re-reading the text, then using that knowledge to help make decisions in the revision stage.

Ok, thanks. I feel slightly less silly about the whole thing now.

skelly said:

If this has been addressed before, I apologize. In a scene written in third-person from a single character's pov, should I always use a pronoun to refer to the character: "She did this. Then this happened and she thought 'what the hell?' She turned and..." and so on. I find myself throwing the character's name in there occasionally, and I'm wondering if this is a mistake given that the reader already knows what the character's name is, and there is no possibility that she might be confused with anyone else. I appreciate the help

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I'm pretty careful about this. I write deep POV, and characters do not think of themselves by name, so it seems an intrusion to put the POV character's personal name in there.
I tag with internals, with sensory perception, with movement, with direct address ... with anything in the world except the character name.


That said --
my editor just line-edited in eight or ten instances of POV-character names in a 110K ms. She did this in places where it clarified and simplified and I was getting all bent out of shape trying to be simon pure and avoid 'em.

job said:

I'm pretty careful about this. I write deep POV, and characters do not think of themselves by name, so it seems an intrusion to put the POV character's personal name in there.
I tag with internals, with sensory perception, with movement, with direct address ... with anything in the world except the character name.


That said --
my editor just line-edited in eight or ten instances of POV-character names in a 110K ms. She did this in places where it clarified and simplified and I was getting all bent out of shape trying to be simon pure and avoid 'em.

Click to expand...

My WIP is in third limited and I find that I have to use the POV character's name more in scenes where there is another character of the same sex. I think clarity trumps purity, in this case. If your readers have to stop and think "now, which 'she' just did (or said) that?" then you've yanked them out of the story.

My personal guideline is to never use a name where a "he" or "she" is equally clear.

Isn't using he/she a bit repetitive, though?

Or is it one of those invisible words, like 'said' in dialogue?

scarletpeaches said:

Isn't using he/she a bit repetitive, though?

Or is it one of those invisible words, like 'said' in dialogue?

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It's pretty invisible. Pull a novel off your shelf, and you'll be amazed at how many times 'he' and 'she' are used, especially in dialogue.

"Clarified" and "simplified" are generally good.

I've just finished updating the Index again. This time I've used the "multi-quote" function, so the Index will be a bit more like the "undiluted" thread as it has the entire post quoted. Hope that's helpful.

James D. Macdonald said:

I usually find theme by re-reading the text, then using that knowledge to help make decisions in the revision stage.

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Whoops, I was supposed to have a theme?


* peers at the manuscript she's revising *


Oh, well. I'm sure I'll find it somewhere in there.

job said:

I'm pretty careful about this. I write deep POV, and characters do not think of themselves by name, so it seems an intrusion to put the POV character's personal name in there.
I tag with internals, with sensory perception, with movement, with direct address ... with anything in the world except the character name.


That said --
my editor just line-edited in eight or ten instances of POV-character names in a 110K ms. She did this in places where it clarified and simplified and I was getting all bent out of shape trying to be simon pure and avoid 'em.

Click to expand...

Yeah, but that's first person. The question was for third person. No matter how deep you want to be, third person means :narrated. i.e. told by an outsider, and no matter how deep this outside person is (even omnicient) they will not refer to "George" as "I".

smsarber said:

Yeah, but that's first person. The question was for third person. No matter how deep you want to be, third person means :narrated. i.e. told by an outsider, and no matter how deep this outside person is (even omnicient) they will not refer to "George" as "I".

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No. I'm writing third person.
Deep POV in third person uses 'he' or 'she' to build that deep POV.

Sorry to have been so unclear you thought I was writing first person.

JoB

What? You've never heard of George I, George II, and George III?

James D. Macdonald said:

What? You've never heard of George I, George II, and George III?

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Ha-ha-ha.