Poet Savants

Deleted member 42

Colorado Guy in this thread referred to what I'm calling poet savants; that is, people who are suddenly given the gift/curse of poetry who may not be considered, previously, to be quite sane or particularly intelligent.

One of the paradoxes of medieval Irish literature is that future poets and prophets often begin life as hideously ugly individuals, who are mute until an external catalyst spurs them into speech. Ecet Salach or Echen was an Ulster smith and the father of an hideously ugly misshapen lad named Amargein. Amargein is incapable even of keeping himself clean and subsists on a diet of curds, salt, berries and nuts. One day Athirne sends his assistant Greth to put his master’s axe into the forge’s fire when Amargein “cast a hard look at him” thus terrifying Greth. Suddenly Amargein, previously mute, speaks for the first time, uttering the same phrase three times: “Does Greth eat curds?” a pun on Greth’s name and the Irish word for curds gruth. In the end Amargein is fostered by the poet Athirne, and takes his place as the chief poet of Ireland after Athirne (I am paraphrasing from Ford’s translation in Ford 1990, 28–30. Ford cites R. I. Best et al 1954–83. Vol. II ll. 13565–617 (ff. 117b–118b). In Amargein’s case, the catalyst that caused him to speak was the potential for a pun occasioned by the appearance of Athirne’s servant Greth. Labraid Loingsech is another poet who moves from speechlessness to poetic utterance:

[Labraid] as a youth was known as Móen (or Maín, maen ‘Dumb, Mute’) Ollam. Ollam of course, is the name for the highest degree of fili ‘poet,’ . . . It was said of Móen that he was amlabar . . . cimbo fer mór ‘speechless . . . till he was a grown man” (Ford, 1992, 25).

For Moén, the catalyst that brings him from silence to speech occurs when he is struck in the shin with a hurling stick during a game. “That got me” he says. “Móen speaks [labraid]” say the other boys, and he earns his adult name (Ford 1992, 25).

There are other oddities, too; a fellow named Donn Bo who, after a head injury, "lost his brain of forgetting," and proceeded to learn all three branches of Irish scholarship, the traditional lore of poets, the Brehon lore of the judicial system, and Christian lore.

The Welsh über poet Taliesin is another case of spontaneous poet from an idiot savant, of sorts.

If this stuff interests you, there's a neat book called The Role of the Poet in Early Societies by Morton W. Bloomfield and Charles W. Dunn; published by D. S. Brewer.

Works Cited

Ford, Patrick. "The Blind, the Dumb, and the Ugly: Aspects of Poets and Their Craft in Early Ireland and Wales." Cambridge Medieval Studies 19 (1990): 27-40.

Ford, Patrick. Ed. Ystoria Taliesin. Cardiff: University of Wales Press, 1992.
 
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ColoradoGuy

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Fascinating. Thanks so much. The core issue, I suppose, is whether poetic language is focused, trimmed down "ordinary" language or whether it is fundamentally different from standard speech. Your comment that poetic utterance lights up a spot in the brain on PET scan that may be different from the usual language cortex would be a physical demonstration of this notion.

ETA:
(PET scan stands for positron emission tomographic scan. It's a technique that addresses brain function as well as structure. Less fancy scans, such as CT (computerized tomographic) and MRI (magnetic resonance image) scans examine structure alone, although the MRI gives a little functional information. This Wiki article explains PET scans pretty well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positron_emission_tomography)
 
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Deleted member 42

ColoradoGuy said:
Fascinating. Thanks so much. The core issue, I suppose, is whether poetic language is focused, trimmed down "ordinary" language or whether it is fundamentally different from standard speech.

Well, the question sort of answers itself, really. We know poetry when we hear it and see it, though some poetry is written as prose. So yes, the language of poetry is specific in extent -- it uses rhetorical figures to a greater degree, it is metered, it uses sound patterns, and it may rhyme.

There's another way to look at it too; the etymology of poet:

American Heritage Dictionary said:
Middle English, from Old French poete, from Latin pota, from Greek poits, maker, composer, from poiein, to create. See kwei-2 in Appendix I.

At its heart poet/poetry are about making things, about building. So too are the other English words for poet, the Old English scop, which appears to be distantly related to modern English "shape," or Middle English maker as a word for poet.
 

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Medievalist said:
Well, the question sort of answers itself, really. We know poetry when we hear it and see it, though some poetry is written as prose. So yes, the language of poetry is specific in extent -- it uses rhetorical figures to a greater degree, it is metered, it uses sound patterns, and it may rhyme.
True, but if poetic language affects its own special place in the brain, well, that really fascinates me. Maybe it's just because I'm fundamentally an empirical sort of guy, but identifying a special place in the cerebral cortex for poetry makes it special in a whole new way. Putting on an evolutionist's hat, the obvious question then becomes: why did such a thing happen? Maybe it's the Quaker in me, but I'm always searching for those special things that make us human; so if I had to find a physical home for our Inner Light, it would be there, where poetry lives.
 

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At its heart poet and poetry are about making things, about building. So too are the other English words for poet, the Old English scop, which appears to be distantly related to modern English "shape," or Middle English maker as a word for poet.[/quote]

The act of making or building implies that there are resources utilized to make or build. The poet uses existing materials and connects those materials in such a way as to produce something that is made or built.

As any good maker or builder, there is, ideally, a template and a purpose for the thing that is made or built.

There is also an infinite array of possibilities, using fundamental templates, to make or build.

Code/language/poetry is not static but in a flux of continuous remix. Only imposed rules are static (to a point).
 
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Deleted member 42

ColoradoGuy said:
True, but if poetic language affects its own special place in the brain, well, that really fascinates me. Maybe it's just because I'm fundamentally an empirical sort of guy, but identifying a special place in the cerebral cortex for poetry makes it special in a whole new way. Putting on an evolutionist's hat, the obvious question then becomes: why did such a thing happen? Maybe it's the Quaker in me, but I'm always searching for those special things that make us human; so if I had to find a physical home for our Inner Light, it would be there, where poetry lives.

What makes poetry different from prose?

Meter, much like music is organized in terms of pitch and time/rhythm. I suspect that's the difference between the brain on poetry and the brain on prose.
 

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With the advent of poetry generators and their certain perfection, poetry will soon belong to machines.

However, machines will never be capable of infusing spirit into poetry. Mechanically, poetry can exist. Good poetry will always embody spirit and that is the human contribution.

Spirit is the real controversy.
 

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This is very interesting. I'd never heard much about savants and poetry before. Nor did I ever suspect that a different part of the brain was stimulated in the poetic process.
It does make sense though then that using rhyme-games as a memorization/learning technique would be so successful. I just never thought about it using a different part of the brain.
 

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I like the part about a pun having the same effect as a sharp whack on the shin with a big stick.
 

Deleted member 42

MacAllister said:
I like the part about a pun having the same effect as a sharp whack on the shin with a big stick.

Yes; there's something very Celtic about that.
 

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Relative to my comment regarding poetry generators, machines will never be able to infuse spirit into poetry though they will potentially produce masterful poetry.

Spirit in and of itself is a controversy in that there is no defining agreement as to what spirit actually is or is not.

My best definition of spirit : the essence of a living self-willed being.

Spirit is the human response, machines can't provide.

According to Kurzweil, The Age of Spiritual Machines, machines will evolve beyond human capability and assume human culture and challenge human identity.
 

ColoradoGuy

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I don't buy the machine evolutionary bit (maybe because I've never liked The Matrix), but I agree poetic sense may be nearer than anything to defining what makes us human. That's why I'm terribly interested in where in the brain that sense may lie, what the physical substrate for that kind of language may be.

I've never heard of a mechanical poetry generator. Seems to me it would end up looking like that famous chapter in Atlanta Nights.
 

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ColoradoGuy said:
...if I had to find a physical home for our Inner Light, it would be there, where poetry lives.

Cool thought, Colorado Guy.

Medeivalist: weren't those characters (Donn Bo, etc.) part of folklore, or were they historical people?

Great thread.
 

Deleted member 42

Pat~ said:
Medeivalist: weren't those characters (Donn Bo, etc.) part of folklore, or were they historical people?

Great thread.

Donn Bo might actually be real; I've got an article about him I need to finish, but basically, we do have some evidence to suggest he existed, and, I've discussed him with a couple of neurologists who came up with some plausible neurological explanations.

Taliesin also probably existed; but there seem to have been two poets by the name, one historic, one mythological.
 

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I adore this, and all the other threads in this little section. I'm still too deeply intimidated (and haven't anything useful) to contribute, but I love reading this stuff here. You people are amazingly smart.

Okay, my contribution, the poet savant in A Canticle For Leibowitz was a wonderful, horrible character. He was the poet sirrah! and everyone hated him.

Right. Back to lurking. :)
 

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PeeDee, there's room over here by me in the Lurker's corner. I have fresh popcorn too.
 

ColoradoGuy

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PeeDee said:
Right. Back to lurking. :)
I appreciate the posters and the lurkers. When Mac asked me to mod this forum I had no idea if anyone would be interested in it. I'm glad others find it interesting. For myself, I think wondering about how language actually does its work is the Mother Thread Topic for writers.
 

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I think about this stuff alot, more on the philosophy side, but I don't have any expertise. I just dig listening to those who can back up their talk.
 

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P.H.Delarran said:
I think about this stuff alot, more on the philosophy side, but I don't have any expertise. I just dig listening to those who can back up their talk.

That's me too. I enjoy hearing about it, and some of thsi stuff does cross my mind, but not in such a manner that I could present it to other people, and certainly I would fail to back it up and form a discussion. Hence why I'm sitting here, eating all of Delarran's popcorn.
 

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Medievalist said:
Donn Bo might actually be real; I've got an article about him I need to finish, but basically, we do have some evidence to suggest he existed, and, I've discussed him with a couple of neurologists who came up with some plausible neurological explanations.

Taliesin also probably existed; but there seem to have been two poets by the name, one historic, one mythological.

And then there's Caedmon (to keep the medievalism going), purported composer of the first poem in English to be written down. A 7th-century Anglo-Saxon herdsman, he supposedly learned to compose poetry in one night, from a dream (I think). But, obviously, a fair amount of mythologizing no doubt imbues our knowledge of him. And since his poetry was explicitly religious, the whole issue of divine inspiration can't help but seep in.

"Nu sculan herigan heofonriches weard...." Good stuff!
 

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Caedmon is another savant, yes. Thanks for mentioning him. I meant to and got distracted by . . . stuff. There's a lovely Caedmon page here.
 

ColoradoGuy

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What I'm reading here from you scholars is that there is a venerable tradition of regarding poetic speech as being somehow special, even divine in origin? That notion makes me circle back to the gist of my earlier post -- wherever poetic sense lives inside us, there is where the Divine lives also.