Reasons to be grateful for religion

veinglory · Dec 19, 2006

I think that when a new subforum starts it can be easy to see it as anti-everything else, not just to support the demographic it is for. So I thought we could make a preemptive strike for tolerance. Is there a reason you as an atheist or agnostic have to be grateful for the major religions?

Here is one from me. I went to a high school that was large and a lot of the kids were from very affluent families. There were severe issues with drinking, drunk driving and pregancies and the learning environment was chaotic with many of the teacher intimidated by the 'kids'. In my final year the church directly across the road just took the iniative to support academically-oriented students coming up to our college entrance exams.

Several days a week after school they opened the church hall to us and provided tutors from the congregation who were graduate students from the nearby university. They helped us prepared for the bursary exams in hours of special sessions with our peers which were probably the first time I really got to share my love of science and literature. The provided time, facilities and cookies and never even asked for a donation. Matters of religion were not once mentioned. Even with this help I only acheive a 'B' bursary but it was enough to get me in to university and they did it only to help people in the community.

Now that I am thinking about this, as a post-doctoral researcher and university lecturer I realise that this support was really important to me and it is probably time I tracked down their address and at least send a note of thanks.

Meerkat · Dec 19, 2006

What a coincidence--I was just thinking today as I walked into the post office (crowded but congenial) that I am grateful that every religion encourages civil behavior and self improvement. 'nuther good thread you started!

nancy02664 · Dec 19, 2006

Excellent topic.

I agree that religion can indeed be a good thing, and that the basic tenets of many relgions (love your neighbors, help those in need) are wonderful.

I can't think of any specific examples of how religion has helped me personally, but it's obviously helped many others.

Higgins · Dec 19, 2006

I'm not much of an Unchristian Christian

nancy02664 said:
Excellent topic.

I agree that religion can indeed be a good thing, and that the basic tenets of many relgions (love your neighbors, help those in need) are wonderful.

I can't think of any specific examples of how religion has helped me personally, but it's obviously helped many others.

But, to quote Fra Bartolome de Las Casas (writing to the Holy Roman Emperor in 1519, about his project for saving the Indians, just as Cortes set off for Mexico): "I was moved to act not because I was a better Christian than others, but by a Natural Compulsion."

--okay: He was a priest not a Friar at the time and the quotation is in his own account of what he told the Emperor Charles the V.

Thus it is often that religious people do good despite their religious convictions. But we can thank religions for making them obsessively record their various self-justifications at least.

truelyana · Dec 19, 2006

Without religion, this world wouldn't have turnt out the way it has...

veinglory · Dec 19, 2006

There are good and bad in all things. This thread happens to be about the good.

Higgins · Dec 19, 2006

I'm grateful for the Melodrama of the Devotio Moderna

veinglory said:
There are good and bad in all things. This thread happens to be about the good.

I'm grateful for the melodrama of the devotio moderna. Only a few weeks ago I was moved to tears by a devotional diptych. Okay it took about 10 of them and a lot of concentration...but Roger van der Weyden is the best and van Eck even better.

veinglory · Dec 19, 2006

I rather like pre-Raphealite art with its themes of enlightment, fallen women and angels. I think beleif in divinity creates a certain type of art. There is a New Zealand artist who did a piece of Christ in the tomb that I looked at for a good half hour, of couse them I forgot the artist's name.

BruceJ · Dec 27, 2006

Then there's the music of Johann Sebastian Bach. Either ya see this or ya don't...

Higgins · Dec 27, 2006

Yaa!

BruceJ said:
Then there's the music of Johann Sebastian Bach. Either ya see this or ya don't...

Yes indeedee. JSB is extremely religious and extremely good. Taruskin's recently published history of Western music emphasizes the religious logic in JSB.

See:

http://www.us.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/?view=usa&cp=25593&ci=9780195169799&WT.mc_id=musmnl

C. L. Richardson · Dec 27, 2006

I'm a Christian myself, so I don't know if my opinion counts here. But I've seen Christian organizations do backflips to reach out to people who are hurting all over the world. How many atheist, Buddhist, or Islam groups will travel halfway across the planet to feed a starving country at their own risk of being imprisoned or shot? Sure it could happen but I've yet to hear of it. Christian organizations have also provided communities with maternity homes and pregnancy centers that provide loving support and every kind of help imaginable to young struggling moms. The fact is, Christians care with a passion that can only come from God, and God has blessed them to do His works on a bigger and bigger scale.

Mac H. · Dec 27, 2006

How many atheist, Buddhist, or Islam groups will travel halfway across the planet to feed a starving country? Sure it could happen but I've yet to hear of it.

Wow. You've never heard of the Red Crescent organisation ?

You might want to keep in touch with world events more. They are an Islamic organisation who does exactly what you've described. They've been in the international news a fair bit lately.

Also, there are very few 'atheist' organisations, simply because athiests who want to organise together to do good in the world simply don't see the point in making people of other beliefs feel unwelcome by naming their organisation after their belief. You'll normally find these organisations described simply as 'secular'. 'Doctors without Borders' and UNICEF are examples of secular organisations that do exactly what you describe.

Just out of interest, how many Buddhist organisations are you familiar with? If you know the name of a few dozen of Buddhist organisations, but hadn't heard of any humanitarian ones that might be significant. But if you haven't heard of many Buddhist organisations, it doesn't mean anything if you haven't heard of any that do a particular job. As another datapoint, the only Buddhist organisation I'm familiar with is a humanitarian one. (There are probably thousands of others - I just haven't heard of them)

Good luck,

nancy02664 · Dec 27, 2006

C. L. Richardson said:
But I've seen Christian organizations do backflips to reach out to people who are hurting all over the world. How many atheist, Buddhist, or Islam groups will travel halfway across the planet to feed a starving country at their own risk of being imprisoned or shot? [...] The fact is, Christians care with a passion that can only come from God, and God has blessed them to do His works on a bigger and bigger scale.

Um... I think things like this might work better elsewhere.

KimJo · Dec 28, 2006

I think Christians care with a passion that comes from their belief in God, not necessarily from God himself, if such an entity exists. There's a difference. Personally, I'm neither necessarily atheist nor agnostic; I do believe that there's a higher power in existence. But I also believe that we as humans have the ability to create or magnetize positive events and things into our lives. That Christians are able to do what they see as God's works on a "bigger and bigger scale", to my belief, is because they as a group are creating the reality of being able to perform those works on that scale, not because God has said, "Look at those Christians, I'm going to give them a hand." The universal power in which I believe does assist its creations, but only if we're willing to do most of the work. And as has been stated, Christians don't have a lock on doing charitable works; nor do they have a lock on being able to perform those works on whatever scale they choose, because if there is a God as Christians and many other religions see him, I really doubt he'd care how we identify ourselves spiritually; all he would care about in my opinion is that we try to live as spiritually as we can.

C. L. Richardson · Dec 28, 2006

No, I have never heard of Red Crescent. A person can live in almost any town across the US and never hear of a Buddhist group, but the Christian churches are pretty prominent, still popping up in large numbers and contributing unselfishly to society. As I said before, similar groups of other religions may very well exist. I've just never heard of them. What I have seen from a quick glance around is that the church really cares, going great lengths to help people --any people -- Christian or non. They do it voluntarily, expecting nothing in return, and what's equally amazing is they have the resources to do it. God has blessed them with the funds and opportunities, so that they can bless others.

veinglory · Dec 28, 2006

C L, this is a thread to say positive things about religion, not negative things about our beliefs, thank you.

No matter how much you say 'as far as I know' you are suggesting we don't do a comprable amount of charity or humanitarian work and as a person who is a long time, very active member of Amnesty International, Greenpeace and the SPCA I do resent that. As I said above, this thread is about 'the good' and I think you are direspecting my good intentions and presimptuously crediting God with my money and energies when I do not give them in His name.

One could easily make the case that religion is disproprtionately responsable for the wars and famines these poor people need to be rescued from but it was not my intention to turn this into that sort of discussion and if it goes there I respectfully ask for the thread to be locked.

citymouse · Dec 28, 2006

"I was moved to act not because I was a better Christian than others, but by a Natural Compulsion."

If I may I quote here a part of a poem that came to mind as I read the above.
...Thou hast set the Pleiades in a silver row,
Thou hast sent the trackless winds loose upon their way;
Thou hast reared a colored wall
Twix the night and day;
But chief of all Thy wonderous works,
Supreme of all Thy plan,
Thou hast put an upward reach
Into the heart of man.

C__

ChunkyC · Dec 28, 2006

I donate money every year to various organizations that are not based on a religion. I offer my arm to someone unsteady on their feet when inclement weather has the sidewalks slippery. I open doors for people. I say please and thank you. I stop my car to allow pedestrians to cross the street at crosswalks.

I expect nothing in return for these things, and I do not advertise my religion, lack thereof, or sexual orientation while doing them, because under the circumstances those things are irrelevant.

I would venture to say there are millions of athiests and agnostics all over the world who go about their daily lives being decent, caring human beings, and who like myself feel no need to advertize the fact they are athiest or agnostic. I bet there are also millions of Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. who do exactly the same.

To address the reason for the thread: I believe that the majority of the people who follow the world's various religions learn to care about their fellow human beings, and that will always be a good thing. And, as noted above, some of the most beautiful music ever created has been sparked by the composer's beliefs.

veinglory · Dec 28, 2006

Maybe it is the matter of the small but essential difference bewteen 'good' and 'better'. Because there are good people of all belief systems, all belief systems have it in them to be good and can be seen being 'good'. So I, perhaps niavely, see tolerance and emphasizing the positive as the way to actually make the world a good place, as much as we can.

Roger J Carlson · Dec 28, 2006

C. L. Richardson said:
No, I have never heard of Red Crescent. A person can live in almost any town across the US and never hear of a Buddhist group, but the Christian churches are pretty prominent, still popping up in large numbers and contributing unselfishly to society. As I said before, similar groups of other religions may very well exist. I've just never heard of them. What I have seen from a quick glance around is that the church really cares, going great lengths to help people --any people -- Christian or non. They do it voluntarily, expecting nothing in return, and what's equally amazing is they have the resources to do it. God has blessed them with the funds and opportunities, so that they can bless others.

Most of the organizations in the United Way have no religious affiliation. Certainly people who contribute may have religious affiliation, as may some or all of the people who work in such organizations, but the organizations themselves are not religion-based.

Now, as a Christian, I am pleased and proud that so many Christian churches and other organizations work unselfishly for others, but that's no reason to minimize the contributions of others.

Sassenach · Dec 28, 2006

C. L. Richardson said:
No, I have never heard of Red Crescent. A person can live in almost any town across the US and never hear of a Buddhist group, but the Christian churches are pretty prominent, still popping up in large numbers and contributing unselfishly to society. As I said before, similar groups of other religions may very well exist. I've just never heard of them. What I have seen from a quick glance around is that the church really cares, going great lengths to help people --any people -- Christian or non. They do it voluntarily, expecting nothing in return, and what's equally amazing is they have the resources to do it. God has blessed them with the funds and opportunities, so that they can bless others.

You don't get out much, do you? Have you every heard of the UJA [United Jewish Appeal], for instance?

JimmyB27 · Dec 29, 2006

C. L. Richardson said:
God has blessed them with the funds and opportunities, so that they can bless others.

Seems an odd way for him to behave, why not cut out the middle man?

Anyway, on topic - I like a lot of religious architecture. There's an old Saxon church in the village I grew up in, and I think it's a beautiful building.

Cath · Dec 29, 2006

I know that religion gives many people strength to cope and deal with the things that happen in their lives. I'm not one of them - but I'm not going to begrudge others their source of comfort if it works for them.

Roger J Carlson · Dec 29, 2006

Borrowed from another thread:

*Myth 11: Atheists view religion and religious people with contempt.

That's not the sense I'm getting from this thread. Thanks for starting it, Em.

*Note: I just made this one up.

Shadow_Ferret · Dec 29, 2006

I can't think of one reason to be grateful for religion.

That isn't to say I disrespect anyone who believes, I just can't think of any reasons why it's necessary to have religion.

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