Is it rape if the woman is drunk?

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aruna

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How do you feel about women who deliberately drink themselves into semi-oblivion, have sex, and then claim it was rape? If you are drunk you don't know what you are doing, true; but aren't you reponsible for getting drunk in the first place?

This is a huge problem in Britain, and as mother of a teenage girl it shocks and scares me. Though my daughter is very mature, doesn't drink, and is totally sickened, as I am, by the sight of drunkenness, I can't help wndering if peer pressure will ever make her crack.

Binge drinking here in Britian has reached epidemic proportions - expecially for young women. I've not only read about it and see it in TV - if you go out on a Friday or Saturday night or even in the daytime, you can see them - young girls totally out of control; they go out with the deliberate intention of getting wasted.

In this country, alcohold consumption of 14 year old girls outstrips boys. It's just the cool thing to do, espcecially during the first week of University, so its not just a class/education thing. This is a culture that glorifies drinking in general, and it's perfectly cool to boast of how drunk you were and what you did when you were drunk.

So if a woman says "yes" when she is drunk, can it be called rape because when you're drunk you don't know what you're doing? (I know this isn't the case in the original article.) What if the man is drunk as well?
 
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Tiger

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I think there are precedents on college campuses in the U.S. (i.e.: Brown University) that say yes, it is rape. Morally, I'd say there is a definite double standard when alcohol is involved.

What if the guy's drunk too? Is his impaired judgement taken into account?
 

lauram

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I think in this case I'd call it rape. He knew he shouldn't be doing it, and he was a jerk about it (writing things on her body afterwards).

If they were a couple and they had consensual sex before this incident, I'd say that it wasn't rape.

It is a fine line, and both sexes should be cautious when drinking in social settings.
 

Elodie-Caroline

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I think his sentence "How do you classify rape?" just shows his complete arrogance about the situation. With that kind of attitude, even him seeing some girl he's seen at university passing by him in the street is justification for having sex with her when she's drunk.

If he was in a role of looking after new students and the girl was drunk, no matter how he sees it, he took advantage of the situation; he wouldn't have been asked to escort her home if he hadn't of had that duty bestowed upon him.

The girl was stupid for getting drunk in the first place; but he had a responsibility to get her home, safely.

Ellie
 

oswann

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He is the sort of typical, snotty twit who is astounded he is being tried at all, and should be punished. Yes, he should go down for rape. Yes, it is rape. If he is taking advantage sexually because the girl was drunk and couldn't defend herself or because he was holding her down and couldn't defend herself, for me is the same thing. I'd give him ten years.


Os.
 

aruna

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lauram said:
I think in this case I'd call it rape. He knew he shouldn't be doing it, and he was a jerk about it (writing things on her body afterwards).

If they were a couple and they had consensual sex before this incident, I'd say that it wasn't rape.

It is a fine line, and both sexes should be cautious when drinking in social settings.

Actually, I think the "writing things on her body" is more in his favour... it sounds more like a twatty, jokey thing they did together than mean-spirited; which would mean she was, in her drunken state, consenting.

There's no question he took advantage of the situation, and abused his position of responsibility. And whining about it afterwards. But "rape" is taking it a step too far IMO.
 

astonwest

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In the US, even outside of the college system, being drunk means you can't consent to sex (just like you can't sign a legal contract under the influence).

My favorite quote, from the defendant:
"This is surely a contravention of my human rights. Myself and my family have suffered greatly during this ordeal and it will take time to rebuild our lives."
 

kikazaru

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He was in a position of authority. He even signed a contract agreeing to no sex between him and the new students. Obviously there was a concern about these types of situations or else there wouldn't be a contract to begin with. He took clearly took advantage of the situation and of the girl's condition. You'd think with ears that big, he could hear his conscience telling him it was a bad idea. I don't feel sorry for him one bit.
 

britwrit

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Yeah - this is rape...

Come on, climbing on top of a woman who passes out when you're undressing her is rape, pure and simple. The fact that he wrote his phone number and "cute" little message on her stomach pretty much removes all doubt in my mind.

Ok, as an American living in London, I realize a lot of relationships begin here with the drunken hook-up. Still, this is still way beyond the norm.
 

Provrb1810meggy

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I think this would still be classified as rape. Maybe not if he was just another fresher and they went home together, but he was an older student, taking freshman student home for their safety, and he signed a contract saying, "No sex." Even if it isn't considered rape, I still consider this disgusting behavior and I think this kid should stop whining. The girl is the victim, not him!
 

SC Harrison

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Yeah, it's rape.

He took advantage of his position of responsibility and subjected her to exactly the kind of treatment he was supposed to protect her from.

And writing, "I pulled the President" on her belly tells me a couple of things: she was probably incoherent and he knew she wouldn't be aware he was writing it, plus, he knew she was so drunk she wouldn't remember who he was, so he wanted to leave her a message. It's not cute, it's the act of a successful predator.

Apparently the act didn't meet the criteria for a conviction as a "crime", and that's okay. But it did deserve to be investigated and brought to court, so it could smear that smarmy little bastard's reputation.
 

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its not rape unless the woman clearly said no but she was so drunk she probably doesnt remember and we all know drinking lessen your inhibition and not increase it so chances are she did have sex with him 'willingly' under the influence of alcohol and she did it herself, no one forced her to drink so id agree the guy might be a jerk to take advantage of her but she cant really claim rape - otherwise there will be a lot of people using that excuse to get out of anything - i was drunk, so it doesnt count - i woke up with a hangover and found that he was so ugly so he must have raped me - oh please
 

Haggis

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Not enough information to tell.

The last thing she remembers is him taking off her underwear. Did she object to that? If she did, it's rape. If she consented, then it's not. If she was too drunk to do either, it's still unclear. There's simply not enough information to make a judgement, except for the fact that every breath that guy takes is a complete waste of oxygen.
 

aghast

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astonwest said:
In the US, even outside of the college system, being drunk means you can't consent to sex (just like you can't sign a legal contract under the influence)...

thats news to me because i see drunk people hooking up all the time and i have had sex a few times while intoxicated and woke up thinking gosh what have i done, and gosh how many 'rape' cases are we going to have now - is there really a law out there saying if youre under the influence you cant have sex - because theres no way you can consent? first i heard... and if both are intoxicated it comes a he said she said
 
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KitKat said:
Was there consent? If yes, no matter how much of a jerk the guy is, it wasn't rape.

I strongly disagree. If a woman's drunk enough to not be in her right mind, she's incapable of giving informed consent. If a man takes advantage of her drunken state, at worst he's a rapist and at best he's certainly not a gentleman.
 

Haggis

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scarletpeaches said:
I strongly disagree. If a woman's drunk enough to not be in her right mind, she's incapable of giving informed consent. If a man takes advantage of her drunken state, at worst he's a rapist and at best he's certainly not a gentleman.

But what if a drunken woman is the aggressor (it happens). Who is the rapist then? Is it still the man?
 

The Lady

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I wouldn't touch any man who ever had sex with a woman who was so drunk, she couldn't remember what was going on.

Hello people. Look around a bar sometime. People who are that drunk are not attractive. They drool. Their eyes are glazed. They talk like they have brain damage. While I sometimes admire the state they've got them selves into, they're not love material at that point.

It's a first cousin of necrophilia. Whether he got away with it or not, bottom line is he's scum and that's what he always will be. On the other hand, being daft and drinking too much is a temporary state which people often pass through and out of. Predators like him should be told, shagging the drunk stranger is a complete no no. I mean if that's the case, we can all go aroung robbing drunk people and claiming afterwards they gave us their money.

In my lifetime I've met two men on the street who were so drunk they could not mind themselves. I called an ambulance for one. The other did not require an ambulance but he was incapable of minding himself and the night was cold. I callled the guards to come get him. Notice, I raped neither of them.
 

veinglory

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Sex without consent is rape, and no the drunk woman did not 'ask' for it. Making yourself vulnerable does not lessen the guilt to any extent of a person who commits rape.
 

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It is against the law in many states to have sex with someone intoxicated over the legal limit. There is no plaintiff if both parties are drunk.

I think its only rape if she is passed out. You can say it is not fair to have sex with someone who is so drunk they are beyond the point of informed consent, but its quite possible that the man is drunk beyond the point of being able to recognize what is and isnt informed consent. I mean, if she is passed out, then no matter how drunk he is, he should know better. But if she is so drunk she is stumbling around and incoherent and he is so drunk he is stumbling artound and incoherent, how is he supposed to know consent any better than she does? So, I agree with the law. If one party is drunk, it is a form of sexual assault (although not as aggregious as a rape against explicit non-consent). If both parties are drunk and both consent, it is not rape. If one party is incapable of consent due to being passed out, it is rape.
 

Scarlett_156

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I've posted elsewhere on this forum about this issue-- which is one that comes up again and again (and again, ad nauseum) in "males-only" types of settings. It's another of those things that makes me damned glad I don't have any kids. Here are my remarks:
  • There are a lot of things that look a lot like rape and yet are not; conversely, there are a lot of things that DON'T look like rape and yet are. That's life, especially in the Big City.
  • Taking advantage of a drunk girl is something generally acknowledged by all guys as shabby behavior. To some guys, shabby behavior is something only indulged in on rare occasions. To others, it's an elixir. No guy, however, goes through his whole life without acting shabby at least once or twice. (Most of them do it in military service, where their families and reputations are less likely to be affected by it.)
  • A girlfriend of mine and I once had sex with the same guy on two separate occasions, under nearly identical circumstances: We were at a party, we became extremely drunk, we went into another room of the house and crashed. This guy (he was a friend of both of ours, too, not just some random guy) came in and when we woke up, he was screwing us. In my case, since I knew him and had already Done him a time or two anyway (one time in a kiddy park, yeeks! we were running around naked and screaming, to this day I can't imagine why no one called the police) I participated in this act, which was quickly over; then we went to sleep. In my girlfriend's case-- well one day we were talking and this guy's name came up. He was in a band and his band had just moved to another state to take advantage of gig opportunities there. My friend shuddered and said, "He raped me once!" I was like, "Oh...?" and it made me angry at him to hear that. Then when she told me the story, I realized that it was exactly what had happened to me, except that she chose to see it as a "rape". That made me go around wondering for a couple of years whether I also had been raped, and whether he had seen it as rape, and so on. My ultimate conclusion involved the realization that my friend had screwed hundreds of guys; she was what most people would term a "nymphomaniac". Even though I'm quite a bit older at this point, the total number of guys I've screwed, drunk or sober, is nowhere near 30. (If I ever hit 50, I will throw some kind of a party... hm.. or maybe that's what the party will be for: "I want to make 50 before I die! Bring a condom!") Anyway, let me add that another mutual male friend of ours recently told me of a harrowing few months of his life in which this same lady was aggressively pursuing him, calling him at all hours of the night, stopping by his place drunk and expecting for him to let her sleep there, and so on. (He managed to refuse her, though I'm not sure how he managed. Prayer, perhaps.) Therefore: My friend treated both of us shabbily, perhaps, but he didn't rape either one of us. Her saying that he had raped her was a value judgment against him, not a truly objective quantification of the facts.
  • I have several real-life friends and several more on-line friends that have committed sexual assaults/rapes against other people, in a few cases garnering the usual collection of felony convictions and legal hassles, and in other cases getting clean away with it time and time again. I don't like sexual offenders or encourage people to commit these acts-- I just seem to run into a lot of this type of person, as I do their victims, and I don't really know why except to speculate that perhaps there are more rapists and rape victims out there than the average person supposes...? In any case the rapist/victim always seems more than eager to spill his or her guts about whatever happened in lurid detail, sometimes to my great discomfort. Yea, I know that a lot of the time people lie about this type of thing, but court documents and newspaper articles generally do not lie. (If they do, then God help us all, I suppose.)
Anyway, what I have grown to believe given all the above factors is this: People are stupid. Whether you are male or female, if you stick your hand in the shark's tank enough times, eventually the shark will bite you. The shark can't help being what it is-- it can't change its nature. You on the other hand can see its teeth and make an informed decision to keep your damned hand out of there.

Yes-- if you are just walking down the street and some guy jumps out of an alleyway, hits you over the head, and forces sex on you, then you are in no way to blame and it's a terrible crime; if you are lying in bed asleep in your apartment, and some guy climbs in the window and forces sex on you-- even if you left your window open, it's a terrible crime and you are in no way to blame.

If you are out in public getting wildly drunk and teasing everyone in sight, macking with complete strangers, flashing body parts at people, and begging for rides on the street corner, and some guy comes along and takes advantage of you-- he's a cad. Perhaps charges should be filed if he damages your body or steals your property. But it's not as clear-cut. To call it "rape" is a fine distinction that is perhaps not worth arguing over. When the guys start arguing about this type of thing, this girl puts her headphones on and turns up the volume.

If I had kids-- well, first off I can't even imagine it. Going through pregnancy and childbirth seem horrifying to me, and I'm someone who's seen my own patella hanging out after I crashed my bike once. If I had actually gone through the experience of having a child, I would want to make that experience count for something by not dropping the child into the sharks' tank before the child is old enough to know that the sharks will bite.

I would never leave an infant with someone I didn't completely know and trust, and I probably wouldn't leave it anywhere, period. I would personally escort the child to and from its school every day, or have it be escorted by another adult whom I trusted. I would supervise its play time with other children, and only allow it to go to homes of people I knew personally and had visited with myself. I would take the child with me to the library and store and never allow it to go by itself. If the child was involved in extracurricular activities such as sports I would unfailingly arrive before the activity was over to pick the child up, and let the child know in no uncertain terms that if I ever arrived to pick him up and found that he was somewhere other than where I expected him to be, he would never be allowed to participate in that activity again.

I would only allow my child to use a computer not connected to the internet-- if he needed to do research on something I would mandate that he submit that request to me so that I could look it up myself. If I found that he was using another person's internet service, or if he had rigged internet service on his own by stealing wireless or whatever (like one friend of mine, now age 16, has done several times), I would ground him for a very long period of time and not let him touch a computer at all. (I've told this one friend that he should be very glad I'm not his mom; his reply was: "If you WERE my mom, we'd BOTH be in jail right now!")

The above measures probably seem extreme to many, and kinda mean. But what seems extreme to me is the number of boys and girls who have told me that they have been raped or taken advantage of by opportunists.

Parents today seem to be overly preoccupied with their own careers and relationships, and I think that's a large part of the problem.
 

jchines

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In the U.S., rape laws vary from state to state. In some states, my own included, "rape" is a legally meaningless term. And I'm not familiar with the U.K. laws, or any evidence that might not have made it into the article.

With that disclaimer, Hagan was asked to escort this girl home because she was apparently too drunk to get there on her own. How could anyone possibly think she's in a state where she's capable of consenting to anything? As Hagan was the one who was sent to help her, I'm assuming he was not in such a state. He made the choice to have sex with a girl who couldn't consent. A girl who, from the sound of it, blacked out in the middle of this. Hagan chose to keep going.

Yes, getting that drunk in a party setting is unwise for anyone, and it has consequences. Consequences like puking your guts out, or a killer hangover the next day.

Getting raped is not a consequence of drinking. It's a consequence of someone choosing to rape. Are rapists more likely to look for drunk or otherwise helpless victims? Absolutely. But that doesn't take away from the rapists choice to commit the crime.
 
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