The lies that are not meant to deceive

http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=9870



On 9 June 2006 seven civilians were blown up on a Gaza beach. The footage of the sole survivor, 10 year old Huda Ghalia, screaming amid the ruins of her family was so unbearable that Israel even muttered some apology. But only for a moment. Almost immediately, defence minister Amir Peretz announced a "propaganda offensive" to prove that Israeli shells were not to blame.


The army said witnesses were mistaken or lying; the hospital computers wrong or falsified; the staff's claims fallacious or malicious; the analysis of crater, shrapnel and injuries by former Pentagon battlefield analyst Marc Galasco befuddled. Yes, Israel's apologists conceded, the army had fired six shells on and around the beach. And true, one of those shells was unaccounted for. But by sheer coincidence, at the exact time as that shell went missing, the Ghalia family trod on a mine - one single mine on the entire beach - that Hamas, in a lunatic break from its operational history, had planted.

How, the world asked in incredulous rage, can they possibly think this ludicrous scenario will convince us? The answer, of course, is that they don't.

let the muddying of the waters commence

dclary said:

Well, I've got to hand it to you, Greg. You certainly picked an authoritative source for your deceptive lie citation.

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If you have better sources about what happened, by all means, lets have a look.

The point of the thread was really not the shelling at Gaza, but the lies being told about the shelling at Gaza. Incredible lies that no one could believe, told not so that the lies are believed, but told simply to muddy the waters, to divert attention, divert resources, and so on.

Not much different than Billy posting a Shrug in a discussion which distracts and diverts. Or someone getting indignant over some minor point and demands all attention be focused on that minor point because the original poster distorted some minor truth and oh the indignation. Not meant to forward the conversation or get to any deeper pattern, but to serve as a roadblock, a detour, a speedbump to slow things down.

There isn't a lot of actual conversation going on from certain of the right wing extremists in these forums, just lies not meant to decieve, but to divert and distract and muddy the waters.

Billy's pathetic map of the occupation by Israel of Muslim land is one example. It has nothing to do with the real issues in the middle east, but he can throw it in there to monkey the works. Like he can throw in a shrug and an apology, and then say it was funny.

I don't know all the specifics about what happened on that beach in Gaza. What I do know is that I recognized a deeper pattern in the lies not meant to decieve actually applies to certain posters over here.

It just gives me a better perspective of the stuff that goes on here.

dclary said:

They probably shouldn't have built their houses there, Bravo..

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are you talking about an israeli settlement in palestinian land by any chance?

Bravo said:

greg, the sooner you realize that arguing w/ billy is like pissing in the wind, the more enjoyable your TIO experience will be.

gnite.

and good luck

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yes, I'm learning not to take Billy seriously.
Still working on that.
And a few others in the TIO group.

William Haskins said:

at least israel felt enough shame and moral pressure to investigate it.

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or cover it up with a bunch of BS.

You might as well say we "investigated" the gulf of tonkin.

Oh wait, can't compare Iraq to anything else, especially vietnam.

You might as well say we "investigated" if any innocent people ever got extraordinarily renditioned and tortured. Nope. no innocent people here.

How do you know, they never had a trial?

Oh, we know, because we "investigated".

Uh huh.

Bird of Prey said:

The Neocon Whisperer. Yeah, that's Greg.

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Oh gawd, shoot me now...



Never mind, I got it.

dclary said:

Both.

It's like two kids fighting in the back seat of a car, each trying to encroach the other's space for no other reasons than bordedom and trying to get a rise out of the other.

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Except one kid kills 1100 civilians and the other kills 150 military people.

Not to mention all the destruction that Israel rained down on the Lebanese population when they wiped out their civilian infrastructure.

Was every single lebanese killed in that 35 day war guilty of supporting Hezbollah? Was all of lebanon who suffered the destruction of all their infrastructure (billions of dollars worth, I think) worthy of suffering that destruction?

Those are yes/no questions.
There is no such thing as a yes-but question or a no-but question
when it comes to the morality of a war.

Q: Israel killed innocent and uninvolved lebanese civlians?
A: Yes-but hezbollah hides among the lebanese.
Q: Did all the lebanese killed by Israel hide hezbolla in their homes?
A: no-but some of them might have.
Q: did the people killed at that beach by israeli shells deserve to die?
A: No-but it was an accident on Israel's part, or they stepped on a mine.
Q: Did the poeple artilleried by Israel last month in a civilians sector deserve to die?
A: No-but it was a mixup in coordinates.

You want to see some peace in that area, then stop accepting yes-but and no-but answers. There are no excuses for mistakes that end up killing innocent poeple. If Israel will not own up to them, acknowledge they are responsible and make reparations, then every innocent killed is simply the seed that turn's into that dead innocent's brother's righteous cause to turn himself into a suicide bomber.

no more excuses. Someone needs to grow up and take responsibility if that mess is ever going to straighten out.

And if anyone argues "they started it" or "they're doing it too" or any of that h0rse$h!t, then they're being as immature as those two kids in the back seat of the car, but they're killing people while doing it, and they dont' deserve my support.

William Haskins said:

acknowledge that there are also no excuses for deliberately strapping a bomb to oneself and targeting innocent civilians and i'll believe that you intend to debate in good faith and not simply spew talking points.

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Oh sod off. killing civilians is not acceptable no matter what. I spew no talking points. You want to debate in good faith, then bring some to the table. Have I typed anything in bad faith? No. Then you've got no basis for this crapola.

Now, about killing civilans being bad: how about that bit where 1,100 lebanese civlians were killed, one-third of them children, versus 150 israeli's killed, mostly military?

It's all fun and games until we talk real numbers around here.