Is it really that bad?

another way to test your writing ability

William, if you just like to write, submit to a writing contest. Some of htem even give feedback from professional writers and editors.

I'm reposting my post from the novel forum.

For beginning novelists, submitting to competitions are a good way of building up your name on important writing circles. Once your name is built up, agents and publishers are much more likely to be willing to read your manuscript.

www.southalabama.edu/engl...tinfo.html

opencampus.fccj.org/WF/

www.carvezine.com/

www.swinkmag.com/

You can find many more festivals and awards on www.pw.org"

Jeepers

The point is that all the advice here is good. It may not meet with what you want to hear, but if you ask you should at least consider the answers. To ask a clarification of a pont is a good exchange of information. To argue someone's opinion is stupid. It's just an opinion based on one persons experience and circumstance.

SRH is correct. No one needs extra grief and stress in their lives. Not just in publishing but in all businesses. You waltz in to my office with an attitude just because you think you got the best knoledge or product I throw your butt out the door quicker than lightning. There are thousands of others, nice people, willing to take your place in line.

--

he wanted to hear that he was right--or that all he heard was right. He didn't like any of the other advice, and I doubt he would take the advice and editor would give.

Nothing is worse than working with a writer who thinks they are a pro (at everything) and then argues with everything you say.

Shawn

nods

yup

Re: nods

As a newbie to this board and someone who is wholly unconnected with any of the parties posting in this thread, I have been rather surprised at the speed with which people have rushed to tell a complete stranger, of whom they have almost no knowledge, that he should give up writing. I also find it strange that so many apparently experienced writers should not be sensitive to the difference between criticising someone's point of view (or work) and criticising the person himself. I would have been just as cross as The Tableist if someone who knew nothing about me had insinuated that I wasn't paying enough attention to my family.

I don't usually get involved in other people's arguments, but I genuinely believe people have misread The Tableist's position. (I agree that his mode of defense was unhelpful in this respect.) As far as I can see, he asked a genuine but quite specific question, with a real interest in finding the answer. Amongst some helpful replies, he was also subjected to some unnecessarily personal remarks and responded angrily. And now people from left, right and centre are starting to diagnose his personality problems. This is hardly encouraging to other newbies, wishing to ask questions and learn from the considerable amount of experience available on this message board.

Re: nods

Any writer with aspirations of being published must be able to remove his "writer" hat and don his "editor" hat before submitting.

Most do so during the revision process where it's essential to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Table was offered plenty of wheat and a bit of chaff. He could have ignored what wasn't relevant to his topic. Instead, he chose to focus his windy responses on the chaff and all-but ignored the wheat.

It was that tunnel-visioned mentality, not his writing chops, or lack of, that led some to suggest he might not be cut out for this business.

Niggle

The advice to quit writing had nothing to do with skill or creativity. It was attitude. The advice came from someone in the business of publishing.

All advice was discounted and discarded verbally like so much garbage.

It's fine if you want to be a jerk, just don't go shoving it down peoples throat because some people spit it right back at you. We have just as many rights as they do.

RT

niggle has nailed it (you)!

...and right on the head... imo, a 100% accurate assessment of all the silly and sad stuff that's been going on here for far too long... i'm repeating it here, so it'll be read again, and hopefully get through to the perpetrators... i've stayed out of the fray, other than offering some encouragement to the poor guy who set off the fireworks, but i'll risk the wrath of the freud wanna-be's here, just in case there's some chance it'll stop this childish nonsense...

As a newbie to this board and someone who is wholly unconnected with any of the parties posting in this thread, I have been rather surprised at the speed with which people have rushed to tell a complete stranger, of whom they have almost no knowledge, that he should give up writing. I also find it strange that so many apparently experienced writers should not be sensitive to the difference between criticising someone's point of view (or work) and criticising the person himself. I would have been just as cross as The Tableist if someone who knew nothing about me had insinuated that I wasn't paying enough attention to my family.

I don't usually get involved in other people's arguments, but I genuinely believe people have misread The Tableist's position. (I agree that his mode of defense was unhelpful in this respect.) As far as I can see, he asked a genuine but quite specific question, with a real interest in finding the answer. Amongst some helpful replies, he was also subjected to some unnecessarily personal remarks and responded angrily. And now people from left, right and centre are starting to diagnose his personality problems. This is hardly encouraging to other newbies, wishing to ask questions and learn from the considerable amount of experience available on this message board.

Click to expand...

AMEN!

love and hugs to all [anyway!], 'mamma'maia

Re: nods

I hesitate to revive this thread, after it's been so quiet, but I guess I didn't quite get my point across (nothing new there! :lol ) so I'll have one more go and then leave it be.

I understood that people were criticising The Tableist for his attitude, not his writing ability, and also agree that it would have been more politic (if perhaps not more honest) if he had managed to control his irritation at the personal aspects of the replies enough to allow him to thank those who'd made useful responses.

However, I don't think a couple of posts on a message board (especially under slightly trying conditions) is enough evidence to form such determined opinions as people seem to have been doing here. I also think that saying, on some slim evidence, "you have no chance of being a published author" to a newbie in a newbie forum of a writing board is not a wise or welcoming thing to do.

One of the reasons I don't usually get involved in arguments of this sort is that it's impossible not to come out sounding horribly holier-than-thou. I'm working hard here to avoid that, but I'm probably not succeeding. My apologies if so.

Thank you for your support, mammamaia.

Re: nods

Tableist asked about making a living as a professional writer. The point many of us were making, althought perhaps not as tactfully as we could have, is that to make enough money writing to support a family requires certain personality traits, people skill, and compromises in addtition to writing ability.

Tableist should consider whether he has these skills before he pursues a career as a professional writer. His posts seemed to indicate a rather short fuse and an inclination toward personal attacks, which are not good in business settings, but perhaps he is just the sweetest guy in person and we are only seeing his Net personality.

G'day from Down Under,

Well, I've read your story and would like to add that you must never give up dreaming. And I don't mean that in a bad way. I too dreamed of being a professional writer; in fact I went around thinking like that for many years until I began freelancing. That whet my creative juices and gave me enormous satisfaction, not to mention some very welcome supplies of money.

Then quite unexpectedly three years ago I received an offer to work as a ghostwriter and then the game started! I was in.

I have now written 19 books, most of which are best sellers. I have done very well financially. In fact I have just been invited, all expenses paid, to speak at a freelance convention in Melbourne next month. This is as a result of me book The Business Of Freelance Journalism. I have also just submitted another book to the publisher (again one of my own) and this they hope to have out in time for the convention. See, once you become a published author it's much easier to have other books published.

It can happen. Hang in their and hone your craft in the freelance field first.

Hope this helps.

Grant

here ya go

Shawn is absolutely right, HConn is right, Cary is wrong, Niggle is wrong, Maia is wrong. You, my friend, are hopeless.

and you, my friend, are... god???

... jest a bit arrogant and judgemental there, aincha, qatz?

and you just agreed with me on another post... oh, well... knew it couldn't last!:\

m

moi, judgmental?

oh, for Pete's sake, maia, you just cant stand anyone to disagree with you. pardon me for trying to be nice.

signed, God

do i get a vote on the adoption thing?

...besides, grandma would be more apropos than sister, m'sweet!:eek

Re: newbies

I love to write. I've written all my life, just for myself and friends. I always felt it was hopeless to try to get pubilshed, but I had to write anyways. The writing bug is always in me. I am trying to get published now, as I get older. If I do, I do. If I don't, I'll still write. I am thinking that, if I can't get published traditionally, I'll self-publish. If I only get twenty readers to look at the story I told, I'll be ecstatic! I'll also have something of a legacy to give to each of my children...a piece of me that they can keep forever, long after I'm gone. You're a writer, or not a writer. If you are one, NOTHING will stop you from writing. It's in your blood and money, success or fame are not the object of what you do. You do it for excitement, fun, and self-fulfillment. That's my opinion only, of course

Re: newbies

It is true that if you have the itch to write, you have to scratch it. However, the person who started this thread began by asking about becoming a professional writer and supporting a family that way. Advice was directed to him with that in mind.

I think your attitude is fine. Your goal is to be published, and you have reasonable expectations and attitude about self-publishing. I don't think you should construe any advice in this thread to mean that you (or any other writer) should give up writing if it is pleasurable - but making a living as a writer is a whole different bucket of expletives.

pammar and maia

pammar, you are great. nothing here is meant to apply to you. tableist had a severe attitude problem, one which you don't share.

maia, just because i'm suddenly friendly to you (i must be having a senior moment) does not mean i have to agree with you. and, yah know, if my sister were still alive, she would be 63 or 64 at this moment. what's that, a year or two difference? what's the big deal, grandma? just jokin. but if you don't wanna be adopted, ok, i'll take it back. making relations doesn't mean you have to say dishonest things.

Re: newbies

Hi! I am a newb, idealistic, have never submitted anything in the 6 months i've been seriously writing, and probably don't know what i'm talking about, however, everything i've read (whihc is, i allow myself the conceit, i fair amount for a 14 year old {not that i want to use my age to back up my points]) indicates:

"
1) Getting published is like winning the lottery. The odds against having a novel published are so monumental as to be virtually insurmountable. People still get published, sure, but people win the lottery too; doesn't mean I'm going to spend my savings buying lottery tickets. Conclusion: give up now."

most submitted novels are rejected, but if you write a good novel, that narrows the competition a lot; you can submit the same novelover and over until it's accepted, one book= infinite chances. most of the time, if one publisher rejectes a good book, another won't. write something good and someone will want it. (maybe not a giant publishing company at first, but someone)


"
2) Even if lightning strikes and you manage to get published, you will remain dirt poor. If you want your children to have a little more than macaroni figurines to open on Christmas morning, you'd better find a different career. Conclusion: give up now."

only a few strike it rich, so don't quit your job, but a decent supplemental income can be exspected, if you're good. if you really enjoy writing, it's like a part-time job and a hobby at the same time.
"
3) At least half of the so-called resources available to writers online and in print are actually just scams that feed on 'wanna-be syndrome'. You've got to choose between a lifetime of failure and being completely ripped-off. Conclusion: give up now."

umm... i'm confused here; anything that doesn't ask you for anyhting can't be a scam; therefore, resources are usually not scams. only if it charges money or takes your writing need you worry, and there are reputable organizations you can turn to; ask the more experienced writers. the "writer's market" book is highly recommended, there's some agent's union that has good restrictions on it's agent, i forget the name, but it's mentioned all the time.
"
4) Everything has been done. No matter how original you think your story is, the first Amazon.com reviewer would cry 'Hack!' and let slip the dogs of criticism. Moreover, he'd likely be correct. Someone, somewhere, already wrote and published your plot. Conclusion: give up now."

every surface satory has been done; but you can create a novel twist, or write a similar story with a different message or theme. doing an old story in an original way is as good as an original story, which are admittedly in very short supply.
"
5) Even if, by some miracle, you have a good, original and well-written manuscript, no one will care. As discussed above, the odds of someone actually reading it are nearly infinitesimal. What's more, if they do read it, they will care first and foremost about whether or not there is a market for it. Being an uniformed nobody, you have virtually no chance of 'striking while the iron is hot'. Have a mathematician figure out what the odds are against you hitting the publisher lottery with a book that they actually read, actually like, AND is marketable. Conclusion: get out while you still can."

if you simply blindly send stuff to random addresses, you're right.

there is a market for everything; finding it can be hard.

a query letter to an agent will get them to read it; since they make money by selling manuscripts, good manuscripts will interest them. while it's true that they're concerned about finding a market, the better your book is, the more there will be a market for it. they will know, if they're good, who will be interested in your book.

all these things, assume you're good. nothing in your email gives me any reason to think you aren't a good writer; your english is fine.

of course, nothihg suggests that you ARE a good writer, either.

if you are good, remember that agents and publishers both make their livings by accepting books; the rejections are something they'd prefer NOT to have to do. if you give them something they can take, they will take it.

"If you can be discouraged, you should be discouraged."

Some famous writer said that.

Me, I'm not sure. Send some pieces out. See what happens. If you don't, nothing can happen.

Re: newbies

dear tableist:

you think too much. Quit writing for a year and see if it means anything to you. Just do it, or don't do it, but don't waste your time trying to figure anything out. the odds are, from all that you said, you probably ARE wasting your time, so just focus on your family and whatever your day job is.

to the tableist

I know I'm a bit late in response to the original posting, but I just joined, so I'm gonna post anyway.
What I am uncertain of, is, what is there to lose if you send the manuscripts out?
You have a regular job, so you aren't going to lose your house if no one publishes your book, I assume.
Make 200 copies, and send it out to every agent and publisher that accepts simultaneous submissions that you can find.
The odds is in the numbers. If you never send it out, there is 100% chance no one will publish it. If you send it out to 20, one might like it, if you send it out to 200, 45 might like it. On the other hand you may send it out to 500 and not one single person will like your book.
The question I have is: Why would you ever give up? If you are not making your living on it, and you just want someone in a predominant position to validate your abilities by accepting it, then would it mean less if it happened when you were 75 as opposed to 40?
Just send the thing out, and write more. Read everything about the craft that you can get your hands on, send out everything you write.
Then, whatever you do, don't hold your breath for a response.

good advice...

for any writer... love and hugs, maia

Re: good advice...

It's mostly an ego thing. If you send out 200 copies, and nobody returns calls, and you've just received rejection #184... it's hard for someone who thinks he's a good writer to believe that "all it takes is one."

For Pete's sake:::::

Hi! I am a newb, idealistic, have never submitted anything in the 6 months i've been seriously writing, and probably don't know what i'm talking about, however, everything i've read (whihc is, i allow myself the conceit, i fair amount for a 14 year old {not that i want to use my age to back up my points]) indicates:

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Anyone who takes advice like this without a truckload of salt almost deserves to fail.