You’ll know it’s ready when ... ?

UntoldStoryteller · Dec 26, 2020

Hi folks ...

I started a manuscript back in August and have finally finished! After I took my first pass at editing, I ended up rewriting close to half the 75K draft. Now, I feel like the plot has “landed” and I’d like to start querying early in the new year. Every time I sit down to draft a query letter, I finding myself going back again and again to tweak, doubt, and pick at the draft. I keep reading horror stories and posts about about drafts getting thrown out over formatting gaffes and manuscript readiness. I don’t yet know what I don’t know, but I don’t want to throw myself out of consideration for something stupid. Assuming grammar/syntax, and the plot are clean ... how “ready” is “ready enough” for agents?

Thanks,
A First-Timer

Woollybear · Dec 26, 2020

I am not an agent, UntoldStoryTeller.

1. What I see agents looking for, more than a "landed plot," is a compelling voice. On twitter, under the hashtag #askagent, you'll see agents speaking of the importance of voice again and again. Secondarily, deep immersion into viewpoint seems important, and this can go along nicely with a compelling voice.

2. Twitter competitions, which skew toward younger agents, seem to indicate that #ownvoices of various kinds, and other specific hashtags, are serious considerations to some agents.

3. Some agents post their end-of-year statistics on #queries received/#authors signed. These numbers are usually a thousand to one or steeper. If it feels like a gut punch to think that your manuscript might not be ready, then reframe the thought to the hard numbers. In a stack of 1000, is yours the best? With the caveat that 'best' can vary by agent and with the above considerations.

4. Finally, I personally believe 'ready enough' for agents might be 'something they could pick up off the NYT best-seller list.' That's how good your manuscript 'should' be, at least for some agents. And to that end, your best bet is to read extensively. Compare your pages dispassionately to those of recent successful works in your genre. How does each element of storytelling compare?

At some point, jump in and don't sweat it too much.

lizmonster · Dec 26, 2020

My opinion: When you query, you should consider the book publication quality. On a practical level, I'd say when you're at the point where you're worrying about individual word choices or swapping a sentence around vs. entire scenes or structural elements, you're probably as close as you're going to get.

IME, which isn't extensive, many agents will ask for changes even (especially) after they rep you. And an editor is going to ask for more once they've bought the book. But before you start querying, the book should be as good as it possibly can be, to the best of your ability.

PyriteFool · Dec 26, 2020

Hey OP! Fellow new year querier over here, so I sympathize. I feel like agents are being more selective than they used to be and they're expecting much more polished manuscripts (I've also heard this from authors who queried even a few years ago. We've got a challenge ahead of us!)

In terms of your MS's readiness, have you had any beta readers? If not, I'd *definitely* send the book out to readers before agents. If you've already incorporated beta/CP feedback, then you might as well send a few test queries once your query letter is ready. That will tell you a lot more than speculation will.

lizmonster · Dec 26, 2020

Woollybear said:
Some agents post their end-of-year statistics on #queries received/#authors signed. These numbers are usually a thousand to one or steeper. If it feels like a gut punch to think that your manuscript might not be ready, then reframe the thought to the hard numbers. In a stack of 1000, is yours the best?

This is, I think, a slight misstatement of the situation. An agent may offer rep to one in thousands of queriers, but that doesn't mean the agent read thousands of subs. The query letter is often the dead end. A bad query means the pages don't get read, no matter how good they are.

Slushkiller is always a good read. It's about short stories, but much of it is applicable to the agent search.

And while agents are looking for good books, they're also looking for books they personally like, and believe they can sell. Excellent, bestselling, award-winning books rack up rejections, not because they're not good, but because not every agent wanted to rep them.

An agent is essentially an art broker. You want one that enjoys your particular sort of art, because they'll know which editors and imprints might be looking for it, and they'll sell it with passion. If a particular agent doesn't love a book, that doesn't mean the book isn't good - it means that agent isn't the right agent for it.

Yeah, agents get a lot of books that aren't publishable, even with work. But they also get a lot of publishable books that just aren't their thing. Sometimes that means a good book doesn't find an agent, which is a shame, but it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the book itself.

Woollybear · Dec 26, 2020

Yes, I agree.

Still, the statistics remain sobering. They were eye-opening to me. I did not believe them. I simply did not. But then I saw them again and again by different agents, and came to realize the nature of querying a little better.

I think a new querier is probably served by knowing the scale of the competition (or, 'the odds') at this stage. but yes, you are right, I conflated the manuscript with the letter or the package overall, which is a misrepresentation of the process.

@Pyritefool: JohnJarrold does an 'ask agent' every week or so on twitter and has said as much, that the incoming queries are no longer of the low quality that they were fifteen or so years back.

lizmonster · Dec 26, 2020

The statistics are absolutely sobering. The odds are against you, always.

A good query letter and a good book will increase your odds by a lot. But it's still an uphill climb.

I just think it's worth remembering that lack of agent nibbles != your work isn't good.

mccardey · Dec 26, 2020

UntoldStoryteller said:
Hi folks ...

I started a manuscript back in August and have finally finished!

<<snip>>

how “ready” is “ready enough” for agents?

Thanks,
A First-Timer

I'm going to be all Tough Love and say - not yet. A book that was begun four months ago is going to have more than formatting glitches and grammar issues against it. It just is. (And in any case, good agents who love a book will not dismiss it because of formatting glitches or the odd grammar issue, anyway.)

ValerieJane · Dec 26, 2020

I'm not an agent. I started querying my first manuscript in August, and I'm still in the trenches.

I agree with what the posters above me have said. For me I knew my manuscript was the best I was going to get it when I read it and thought, "This is good stuff."

I also recently saw an agent tweet something to the effect of (I don't remember which agent said this, so I apologize for paraphrasing), "When you send out your query to an agent, you should be able to step back from it." Meaning you should feel confident that what you've put forward is the best work that you can do on your own. For me, I got to a place where I was able to say to myself that the story I'd written was the story I'd written, and I'd done my best. I could (and would) perfectionist myself to death with tweaking wordings and foreshadowing and other little things in the manuscript or in the query letter, and if I allowed myself to get in my way like that, I'd never send anything out. When you get to the tweaking little things stage, like lizmonster said, you're probably ready to go.

be frank · Dec 26, 2020

PyriteFool said:
In terms of your MS's readiness, have you had any beta readers? If not, I'd *definitely* send the book out to readers before agents. If you've already incorporated beta/CP feedback, then you might as well send a few test queries once your query letter is ready. That will tell you a lot more than speculation will.

Seconding all of this.

waylander · Dec 27, 2020

UntoldStoryteller said:
Hi folks ...

I started a manuscript back in August and have finally finished! After I took my first pass at editing, I ended up rewriting close to half the 75K draft. Now, I feel like the plot has “landed” and I’d like to start querying early in the new year. Every time I sit down to draft a query letter, I finding myself going back again and again to tweak, doubt, and pick at the draft. I keep reading horror stories and posts about about drafts getting thrown out over formatting gaffes and manuscript readiness. I don’t yet know what I don’t know, but I don’t want to throw myself out of consideration for something stupid. Assuming grammar/syntax, and the plot are clean ... how “ready” is “ready enough” for agents?

Thanks,
A First-Timer

I am not an agent, but I do have one.
How many other people have read this manuscript? As you say "you don't know what you don't know". You need other eyes on this, preferably some survivors of the query wars who know what the standard is for gaining agent interest.

Cephus · Dec 27, 2020

waylander said:
I am not an agent, but I do have one.
How many other people have read this manuscript? As you say "you don't know what you don't know". You need other eyes on this, preferably some survivors of the query wars who know what the standard is for gaining agent interest.

That was the point I was going to make. How many people have read the book and told you it was ready for publication? Have you paid an editor to go through it with a fine tooth comb? The book that an agent sees should be publication-ready, even though changes will still be made. I've seen lots of people say "they're going to put an editor on it anyhow" which is true, but that doesn't mean you can submit crap and hope that it gets fixed in the end. It will never make it to that stage unless it's really excellent work up front.

mccardey · Dec 27, 2020

Cephus said:
That was the point I was going to make. How many people have read the book and told you it was ready for publication? Have you paid an editor to go through it with a fine tooth comb? The book that an agent sees should be publication-ready, even though changes will still be made. I've seen lots of people say "they're going to put an editor on it anyhow" which is true, but that doesn't mean you can submit crap and hope that it gets fixed in the end. It will never make it to that stage unless it's really excellent work up front.

Just dropping in to say that although you certainly can pay a editor to go through it with a fine-toothed comb, it's not essential. Much better to brush up on the skill yourself, and have a few other people read the MS before you send it.

(Different if you're writing in language that you're not 100% confident in, or if you have specific issues regarding reading/writing.)

UntoldStoryteller · Dec 27, 2020

Thanks all. Much of what’s been shared is what I expected. I’ve had two beta readers, one of whom is a published author (although that person is in the YA space and mine is adult mystery/thriller). I had a few other “partial” readers (I’m not sure if there’s a technical term of this) who stepped in and out for a few chapters here and there.

I am opting against a paid editor this go round, though I think the important piece of your advice @Cephus is “fine toothed comb.” It feels like the spirit of all this advice centers around that: is it combed enough that if it went to print tomorrow with no editing (as absurdly unlikely as that would be for a variety of reasons, haha) it could stand on its own in my genre and against other manuscripts.

One thing I’d love your thoughts on picks at that question of odds. My author-beta went through ~3-4 manuscript submissions before getting an agent and another ~1-2 before being published. As many have pointed out, the odds are staggering and my expectation is that this MS won’t be my first publish. Not because I don’t think it’s good, not because I don’t believe in the story or the writing, but because statistically it isn’t likely.

Do any of you have experience “trying on” a few genres or manuscripts before finding your voice? Even reading my draft zero versus draft three (where I’m at today), I see my voice has changed radically (practice makes .... well ... if not perfect, at least not total $#!& ;-D). Aside from being a joy to do, it’s been a wild learning experience.

UntoldStoryteller · Dec 27, 2020

But p.s. my main takeaway is that my betas were probably too nice.

lizmonster · Dec 27, 2020

The thing about odds is that they're only good as expectation-setters. They're based on aggregate statistics, and say absolutely nothing about an individual project, whether it's your 4th MS or your 100th.

I got an agent with the first MS I queried (after an R&R). Depending on how you count it, it was the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th novel I'd finished. I'd also been writing for 43 years at that point, so yeah, I had enough experience to be confident in my voice, and to have a very vague sense of what "good enough" was.

I also write stuff that tends toward pulp/commercial. Some books are more specialized, and have a smaller agent pool to pull from.

waylander · Dec 28, 2020

It took me over a hundred submissions to get an agent but throughout that process I was getting requests for partials and full manuscripts.
One hugely important factor in getting a positive response from an agent is your query letter. Writing a good one is a dark art of itself. I strongly recommend taking the time to read the archives at Queryshark https://queryshark.blogspot.com/ and then trying out your query letter at Queryletter Hell on here.

UntoldStoryteller · Dec 28, 2020

Thanks for the tip, Waylander. Like LizMonster and others mentioned, feels like query is a big part I haven't given a TON of thought to, yet. This is an awesome resource, thank you!

lizmonster · Dec 28, 2020

UntoldStoryteller said:
Thanks for the tip, Waylander. Like LizMonster and others mentioned, feels like query is a big part I haven't given a TON of thought to, yet. This is an awesome resource, thank you!

QueryShark is excellent.

Workshopping your query here in Query Letter Hell is invaluable. I came up with two successful query letters thanks to the cheerful relentlessness of my AW peers. This crowd knows what it's doing.

Cephus · Dec 28, 2020

mccardey said:
Just dropping in to say that although you certainly can pay a editor to go through it with a fine-toothed comb, it's not essential. Much better to brush up on the skill yourself, and have a few other people read the MS before you send it.

(Different if you're writing in language that you're not 100% confident in, or if you have specific issues regarding reading/writing.)

Most people simply do not have those skills on their first book. Most people don't have the writing chops to even think about publication in their first book, but certainly, they could use the help of a professional for most things the first time around. An agent is only going to look at what you send, not what you meant to send. It had best be the most polished and professional that you can make it before it gets into their hands.

mccardey · Dec 28, 2020

Cephus said:
Most people simply do not have those skills on their first book. Most people don't have the writing chops to even think about publication in their first book, but certainly, they could use the help of a professional for most things the first time around. An agent is only going to look at what you send, not what you meant to send. It had best be the most polished and professional that you can make it before it gets into their hands.

Well I think it's better to have the skill yourself. I'm not against using an editor's pass as a way of brushing up on the skill - but I'm sure it's better to master writing yourself if you want to be an actual writer.

Also - with the fairly small returns available in trade publishing, I don't think it's fair to limit the pool of writers to those who can afford the services of an editor pre-submission. And in terms of this thread, in the interests of factual trade publishing advice, hiring an editor yourself is not a requirement.

Although, as I said, you certainly can.

lizmonster · Dec 28, 2020

Cephus said:
Most people simply do not have those skills on their first book. Most people don't have the writing chops to even think about publication in their first book, but certainly, they could use the help of a professional for most things the first time around. An agent is only going to look at what you send, not what you meant to send. It had best be the most polished and professional that you can make it before it gets into their hands.

This is an often-debated topic around here, but I agree with mccardey. If you're trade publishing, unless you're looking to publish only one book for your entire career, you'll need to figure out how to self-edit. And if the book you're querying isn't up to it, you probably shouldn't be querying it yet. Publishing-wise, impatience is never going to work in your favor.

For self-publishing I'd definitely recommend an editor, or at least a very discerning (and maybe slightly mean) beta reader.

Woollybear · Dec 28, 2020

FWIW I hired editors of various kinds about halfway through the querying process, to ensure I wasn't suffering from editorial problems.

My 'request rate' did not change, post edits.

Additionally, prior to self publishing, when I interviewed line editors (seven altogether) from reedsy, all of whom had good recommendations, and when I asked for free sample edits--I received seven different sets of pages back. The editor I hired was the one I wanted--her sample edits were in line with my own vision. However, i will not use her again (she got very lazy by the end of my manuscript.)

The lesson I took was that editors are an excellent resource--but not any kind of magic ticket. They're ... people too. And one person's sentence fragment is another person's voice.

Free sample edits on opening pages is a thing, for anyone planning to self publish and looking to hire.

UntoldStoryteller · Dec 29, 2020

Woollybear said:
They're ... people too. And one person's sentence fragment is another person's voice.

I think that’s what holds me back every time I think about a professional editor, Woollybear. I spent the past decade as a ghostwriter and editor (freelance, in the corporate world) and redline things that don’t work for the brand, audience/psychographic, etc. It may not necessarily be wrong, but it’s wrong for that project. I would worry that unless the editor knows the agent and/or publisher who thinks they can sell a manuscript, you’re editing to someone else’s style rather than to clarify your voice within a genre/audience type. You make a great case for finding an editor that mirrors your own style, though. That’s a something I hadn’t considered. Thanks for that.

I do want to go the trade publishing route, so I know there will be plenty of tweaks along the way. I’m that weirdo who truly loves editing, so this has been so insightful. Appreciate ya’ll.

Cephus · Dec 29, 2020

lizmonster said:
This is an often-debated topic around here, but I agree with mccardey. If you're trade publishing, unless you're looking to publish only one book for your entire career, you'll need to figure out how to self-edit. And if the book you're querying isn't up to it, you probably shouldn't be querying it yet. Publishing-wise, impatience is never going to work in your favor.

For self-publishing I'd definitely recommend an editor, or at least a very discerning (and maybe slightly mean) beta reader.

Eventually, yes. But it is a skill that gets developed, it isn't something you can buy off of the shelf, it's something that has to be developed over a long period of time. Very few first time authors will be decent editors. They just won't. That's kind of the point.

You’ll know it’s ready when ... ?

UntoldStoryteller

Woollybear

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

PyriteFool

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

Woollybear

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

mccardey

ValerieJane

be frank

not a bloke, not named frank

waylander

Who's going for a beer?

Cephus

mccardey

UntoldStoryteller

UntoldStoryteller

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

waylander

Who's going for a beer?

UntoldStoryteller

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

Cephus

mccardey

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

Woollybear

UntoldStoryteller

Cephus