• Basic Writing questions is not a crit forum. All crits belong in Share Your Work

What differentiates good stream-of-consciousness writing from bad?

ChaseJxyz

Writes šŸ³ļøā€āš§ļøšŸŒ•šŸŗ and šŸ³ļøā€āš§ļøšŸŒ•šŸŗ accessories
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2020
Messages
4,524
Reaction score
6,203
Location
The Rottenest City on the Pacific Coast
Website
www.chasej.xyz
Didn't see anything like this in the archives. I know personal taste/opinions vary and have a non-0 effect on what one considers "good" or "bad," but there are still concrete specific things you can list for "regular" prose (having little to no punctuation is something I'd think most people would agree is usually not good, or nonsensical plot). But stream-of-consciousness breaks all those rules, that's the point. What then, exactly, is it that separates the gold from the junk? Subject matter? The deepness of the characters? The timeliness of the topic? Are there still stylistic things that are generally agreed upon to be necessary or are a marker of quality?
 

InkFinger

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 15, 2020
Messages
4,315
Reaction score
1,614
Stream of consciousness that is relevant and timely that delivers valuable information and/or characterization is good. Stream of consciousness as an excuse to infodump worldbuilding or backstory is bad. And constant stream of consciousness about relationships not relevant to the current action is also bad.
 

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,336
Reaction score
16,111
Location
Australia.
What then, exactly, is it that separates the gold from the junk? Subject matter? The deepness of the characters? The timeliness of the topic? Are there still stylistic things that are generally agreed upon to be necessary or are a marker of quality?
The reader. I'm pretty sure that successful stream of consciousness is about as stream of consciousness as ad-libbed humour at the Oscars is ad-libbed humour.
 

Lakey

professional dilettante
Staff member
Super Moderator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 20, 2017
Messages
2,757
Reaction score
4,118
Location
New England
What sorts of stream-of-consciousness writing have you read, and what have you found good and noteworthy about it? Have you read Virginia Woolf? Take a look at Mrs Dalloway, if you havenā€™t. Itā€™s properly punctuated, has a clear story (maybe not what everyone would call a ā€œplot,ā€ but definitely a story), clear themes, very strong characterization, etc. As mccardey says:

mccardey said:
I'm pretty sure that successful stream of consciousness is about as stream of consciousness as ad-libbed humour at the Oscars is ad-libbed humour.

Stream of consciousness doesnā€™t mean anything goes. Itā€™s a particular style of approaching storytelling, but that doesnā€™t mean it isnā€™t carefully constructed to do all the things that we expect of fiction. Itā€™s designed so that we experience it as freewheeling and unpredictable as thought, but thatā€™s the illusion of well-wrought fiction. Even authors who take a stream-of-consciousness approach to drafting will still bring all their craft tools to bear when it comes to revision.

:e2coffee:
 

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
14,737
Reaction score
24,769
Location
Massachusetts
Website
elizabethbonesteel.com
I've always felt prose and poetry are the same thing, really - you're using language as a tool to evoke something larger. Rhythm is a big part of what you're trying to communicate, and sometimes the proper rhythm involves chucking grammatical rules out the window.

But as the others have said, the construction of stream-of-consciousness is absolutely deliberate. A poet chooses each word based on sound and rhythm, and how it relates to the words around it; stream-of-consciousness is the same.

The difference between "good" and "bad" is, as you've observed, subjective. It's "good" if it evokes the mood the author intended; it's "bad" if it reads like the author was just making grammatical mistakes. Like all forms of writing, it can be learned, but it takes practice - and the willingness to write a lot of "bad" before you get to the "good." :)
 

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
14,737
Reaction score
24,769
Location
Massachusetts
Website
elizabethbonesteel.com
Would you consider On The Road by Kerouac to be stream of consciousness?

I haven't read the book, so I downloaded the ebook sample and looked at the beginning. Based on that - no, I wouldn't, although I suspect it's an arguable point. He's writing colloquially, with a sort of conversational grammar, but he's still got sentences and recognizable structures. When I think of stream-of-consciousness I think of things like that 80-page sentence at the end of Ulysses.
 

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 4, 2017
Messages
2,372
Reaction score
230
Location
Colorado
Website
indianroads.net
I haven't read the book, so I downloaded the ebook sample and looked at the beginning. Based on that - no, I wouldn't, although I suspect it's an arguable point. He's writing colloquially, with a sort of conversational grammar, but he's still got sentences and recognizable structures. When I think of stream-of-consciousness I think of things like that 80-page sentence at the end of Ulysses.

I was told that he literally taped reams of paper together and fed them into his typewriter, and pretty much went for it, typing without pause. Which seems to me the definition of stream of consciousness.
 
Last edited:

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
14,737
Reaction score
24,769
Location
Massachusetts
Website
elizabethbonesteel.com
I was told that he literally taped reams of paper together and fed them into his typewriter, and pretty much went for it, typing without pause. Which seems to me the definition of stream of consciousness.

I mean, anybody can type without stopping. That just means he had a prolific mind.

If he'd written 300 pages of poetry on one long spool, that wouldn't be stream-of-consciousness, either.
 

Lakey

professional dilettante
Staff member
Super Moderator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 20, 2017
Messages
2,757
Reaction score
4,118
Location
New England
I was told that he literally taped reams of paper together and fed them into his typewriter, and pretty much went for it, typing without pause. Which seems to me the definition of stream of consciousness.

Not necessarilyā€”it may depend upon how you are using the term. One could type out a story on the spot this way that still follows the usual conventions for narrative storytellingā€”a single clear POV that only changes at scene breaks, new paragraphs for each new speaker and each new thought, and so on. It wouldnā€™t necessarily be written in the narrative style of ā€œstream of consciousnessā€ as the term generally gets applied to, for example, the work Modernists like Virginia Woolf, Gertrude Stein, and James Joyce.

Woolfā€™s Mrs Dalloway, for instance, that I mentioned above, is an attempt to capture in literary form the way human thought flits from one subject to the next, with repetition and forking and associations of disparate topics and so on. It does this both within a single characters stream of thoughts, and in the way the narration jumps from character to characterā€”the narrative itself associates and flits, a level above the flitting associations of each character whose perspective the narrative visits.

Now, I donā€™t think Woolf achieved this by sitting down at her desk and writing it all out from beginning to end, following the stream of her own consciousnessā€”rather, she made a series of considered narrative choices that were then refined in revisions, just as we all do when we write our fiction in our various styles. In other words, what people mean when they talk about the kind of stream of consciousness pioneered by Woolf is a form taken by the narrative, rather than an indication that the work came out in or represents or captures a ā€œstream of the authorā€™s consciousness.ā€

Itā€™s not entirely clear to me what the OP meant in asking the question, but maybe ChaseJxyz can chime in with some more thoughts about what the term means to him.

:e2coffee:
 
Last edited:

ChaseJxyz

Writes šŸ³ļøā€āš§ļøšŸŒ•šŸŗ and šŸ³ļøā€āš§ļøšŸŒ•šŸŗ accessories
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2020
Messages
4,524
Reaction score
6,203
Location
The Rottenest City on the Pacific Coast
Website
www.chasej.xyz
I'm using the definition of stream of conscious to the style of the finished product, not the writing process. I can def sit down and pound out several thousand words in an intense hyperfocusing session, but those have sentences, paragraphs, chapter breaks, all the same stuff that would happen if I wrote "normally," but maybe some extra wordiness or some logic mistakes if I wasn't going so fast.

And people are absolutely right in that it does take a lot of intentional work, especially in editing/revision, to have a satisfactory final product. I'm just wondering if this is a "I can't define it but I know it when I see it" type thing and not something that can be more objectively explained as to why it is "good" or "bad."
 

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
14,737
Reaction score
24,769
Location
Massachusetts
Website
elizabethbonesteel.com
I do think stream-of-consciousness has an "official" definition, although as with all things literary, the definition is malleable.

As to whether it's good or bad - I don't think there's an answer to that. I use it now and then in specific types of scenes where it conveys the mood I want, but I've yet to compose a story where I think it would work for the entire thing.
 

Helix

socially distancing
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
11,766
Reaction score
12,242
Location
Atherton Tablelands
Website
snailseyeview.medium.com
I was told that he literally taped reams of paper together and fed them into his typewriter, and pretty much went for it, typing without pause. Which seems to me the definition of stream of consciousness.

Let me introduce you to Georges Simenon, who hammered out 60+ pages a day.
 

AW Admin

Administrator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
18,772
Reaction score
6,287
I was told that he literally taped reams of paper together and fed them into his typewriter, and pretty much went for it, typing without pause. Which seems to me the definition of stream of consciousness.

That's more about Kerouac's state of mind.

Stream of consciousness is a specific literary technique, with a standard definition

n. pl. streams of consciousness
1. A literary technique that presents the thoughts and feelings of a character as they occur.
2. Psychology The conscious experience of an individual regarded as a continuous, flowing series of images and ideas running through the mind.

Kerouac made the style popular in On the Road, but others, includng James Joyce and Virgina Woolf, and Faulkner, all got there before him.

Here's a decent introduction to stream of consciousness as a literary style/technique.
 

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 4, 2017
Messages
2,372
Reaction score
230
Location
Colorado
Website
indianroads.net

jpoelma13

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
81
Reaction score
5
Location
Colorado
I'm sorry, Liz, but I don't agree with your views about stream-of-consciousness.
I consider myself to be a literary writer. I mainly write a combination of fantasy and dystopian fiction. (Although I've dabbled in comedy as well.) When I write novels, I make sure I write in full sentences. I've only wrote stream-of-consciousness once in my work, but when I did I wrote in full sentences. I follow the rules of grammar. I do this because I believe the rules of grammar have actual value, and promote clarity. I shouldn't have to prove I'm a real literary writer by constantly breaking the rules. I'm going to keep believing in myself and my work, even if other people think I'm a rule bound hack who doesn't write by instinct. I have my own voice, even if I follow rules like those of grammar.
 

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
14,737
Reaction score
24,769
Location
Massachusetts
Website
elizabethbonesteel.com
I'm sorry, Liz, but I don't agree with your views about stream-of-consciousness. I consider myself to be a literary writer. I mainly write a combination of fantasy and dystopian fiction. (Although I've dabbled in comedy as well.) When I write novels, I make sure I write in full sentences. I've only wrote stream-of-consciousness once in my work, but when I did I wrote in full sentences. I follow the rules of grammar. I do this because I believe the rules of grammar have actual value, and promote clarity. I shouldn't have to prove I'm a real literary writer by constantly breaking the rules. I'm going to keep believing in myself and my work, even if other people think I'm a rule bound hack who doesn't write by instinct. I have my own voice, even if I follow rules like those of grammar.

I'm not sure what I've said that you've objected to, but to be clear: stream-of-consciousness is a tool, like any other linguistic tool, and I don't believe any writer is obligated to use it (or avoid it). I use it now and then. I have no doubt work that doesn't is just as solid and entertaining as mine.
 

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,336
Reaction score
16,111
Location
Australia.
I'm sorry, Liz, but I don't agree with your views about stream-of-consciousness.
I consider myself to be a literary writer. I mainly write a combination of fantasy and dystopian fiction. (Although I've dabbled in comedy as well.) When I write novels, I make sure I write in full sentences. I've only wrote stream-of-consciousness once in my work, but when I did I wrote in full sentences. I follow the rules of grammar. I do this because I believe the rules of grammar have actual value, and promote clarity. I shouldn't have to prove I'm a real literary writer by constantly breaking the rules. I'm going to keep believing in myself and my work, even if other people think I'm a rule bound hack who doesn't write by instinct. I have my own voice, even if I follow rules like those of grammar.
If you hit Reply With Quote, we'll have a better idea of what you're responding to. (But regardless, no-one wants you to stop believing in yourself, and no-one thinks you're a rule-bound hack. So you can stop fretting about that.)
 

AW Admin

Administrator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
18,772
Reaction score
6,287
I'm sorry, Liz, but I don't agree with your views about stream-of-consciousness.
I consider myself to be a literary writer. I mainly write a combination of fantasy and dystopian fiction. (Although I've dabbled in comedy as well.) When I write novels, I make sure I write in full sentences. I've only wrote stream-of-consciousness once in my work, but when I did I wrote in full sentences. I follow the rules of grammar.

Maybe not?

I do this because I believe the rules of grammar have actual value, and promote clarity. I shouldn't have to prove I'm a real literary writer by constantly breaking the rules. I'm going to keep believing in myself and my work, even if other people think I'm a rule bound hack who doesn't write by instinct. I have my own voice, even if I follow rules like those of grammar.

I think you misunderstand what literary means. It doesn't just refer to the fiction categorized as literary.

It means the techniques of literature.

Literature in the large definition means things that are written; the large definition is the first one.

When Liz refers to stream-of-consciousness as literary, she is referring to it as a technique that is used in the production of literature. This is a statement of fact, not opinion. Stream of consciousness is used in a number of canon novels.

Moreover, stream-of-consciousness, while it is often lightly punctuated or not punctuated at all, does pretty much follow the rules of grammar; it's standard usage that stream-of-consciousness tends to pay less attention to.

It's worth remembering that while we value punctuation, it's a relatively recent invention, and the standards today are not those of the past. Puctuation is an agreed upon convention for use in writing; grammar is inherent in language.

And you have absolutely no reason to not believe in yourself and your novel. Nor do you have to use any particular literary technique; you have complete freedom.
 
Last edited:

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
23,128
Reaction score
10,900
Location
Where faults collide
Website
doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
I was told that he literally taped reams of paper together and fed them into his typewriter, and pretty much went for it, typing without pause. Which seems to me the definition of stream of consciousness.

I thought stream of consciousness (in fiction, anyway) was a representation of a character's thought process as they occurred, not the author's. James Joyce (such as in the opening to Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, which reads like a literary montage of childhood experiences to me) and Virginia Woolf weren't randomly sharing their own thoughts, or their own unedited and ungrammmatical rough drafts, but deliberately creating an immersion in the immediate thoughts and perceptions of a character as they flow from idea to idea, perception to perception. One can certainly write in a colloquial narrative voice, even one that is character referenced, without it being stream of consciousness.

Like so much in writing, or art in general, it's hard to categorically describe when stream of consciousness (or any other literary device) works and when it doesn't. If it intrigues and engages the reader by establishing connection with the character whose consciousness is being streamed, and if it makes readers keep turning pages to discover what's coming next, it is good. If it makes them think about things they might not have thought about before or to think about something in a new way, even better. I suppose this means it still has to be coherent enough for the target audience to follow, and it has to advance a story of some kind, be taking the reader in a direction (however subtly), not just meander indefinitely. I suppose a pleasing rhythm to the words helps too, as well as feeling true to the voice of the character whose perceptions and thoughts it represents.
 
Last edited:

pharm

profoundly de minimis
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 21, 2019
Messages
283
Reaction score
48
I wonder if part of the reason it's hard to identify exactly what "stream-of-consciousness" is is that close third- or first-person interior monologue looks so much like it, and has become so ubiquitous? Probably most of the fiction I read these days uses stream-of-consciousness at some point ā€” or techniques that often appear indistinguishable from it. Which isn't to say that all the voices are half as well-developed as Mrs. Dalloway's. Just that the stream-of-consciousness masters like Virginia Woolf were so effective in their style they wound up directly or indirectly influencing all of prose writing.
 

Gatteau

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 3, 2020
Messages
424
Reaction score
683
Location
Lake Tahoe
Like Liz says, I would call stream of consciousness writing a tool, one that can be used to evoke a mood or maybe enhance a setting for the reader.

For me, itā€™s effective when it immerses me in the mindset of a particular character, even to the exclusion of all other action in the story. Giving that intimate insight into what the character feels without explicitly telling it enhances whatever action happens next because Iā€™m so immersed in their world by that point. This works best from a first person POV. If, on the other hand, the stream devolves into a dribble of incoherent ramblings which seem to have little to do with anything in the overall story - not so successful. (Iā€™ll come back if I can come up with some concrete examples.)

Basically, Iā€™d say ā€œgoodā€ or ā€œbadā€ boils down to whether or not the stream of consciousness adds to the mood and feel of the piece, or pulls you out of it to the detriment of the whole.

If it intrigues and engages the reader by establishing connection with the character whose consciousness is being streamed, and if it makes readers keep turning pages to discover what's coming next, it is good. If it makes them think about things they might not have thought about before or to think about something in a new way, even better. I suppose this means it still has to be coherent enough for the target audience to follow, and it has to advance a story of some kind, be taking the reader in a direction (however subtly), not just meander indefinitely.

This - which may be essentially what I just said, but Roxxsmom said it better...