Comma questions

Gregg Bell · Nov 11, 2020

Correct or incorrect on the following examples? 1) I was a partner in the law firm, after all. 2) I was a partner in the law firm after all. 3) Soccer could be a tiring sport, as well. 4) Soccer could be a tiring sport as well. 5) Timmy wanted to go fishing, too. 6) Timmy wanted to go fishing too. 7) Marcy didn't know which shirt to choose, either. 8) Marcy didn't know which shirt to choose either. Any explanations as to the reasoning why something is correct or not would be appreciated. Thanks.

ChaseJxyz · Nov 11, 2020

I would do:

I war a partner in the law firm, after all. | Soccer could be a tiring sport as well. | Timmy wanted to go fishing, too. | Marcy didn't know which shirt to choose, either.

For all but the soccer one, if you said those aloud, you'd probably pause, right? Timmy wanted to go fishing [pause] too. That's what helps me a lot with remembering how to use commas. The after all/too/either is kinda like an afterthought to the main sentence. It doesn't NEED to be there, but adds something.

Now for the soccer one, I imagine that, in context, there's other things you're talking about, other tiring sports. Something like "I was always exhausted from playing basketball at the Y. Soccer could be a tiring sport as well." The "as well" is kind of important, because the sentence wouldn't make sense in context. "I was always exhausted from playing basketball at the Y. Soccer could be a tiring sport." Reading like that, it's like, okay, why did you put in that thing about soccer? It doesn't really make sense or fits. So the "as well" is a critical/main part of the sentence.

SAWeiner · Nov 11, 2020

Hi. My comments are below in color.

Gregg Bell said:
Correct or incorrect on the following examples? 1) I was a partner in the law firm, after all. I'm actually not sure here. I think I'd avoid the problem by writing it instead as "After all, I was a partner in the law firm." There is a clear pause with "after all" here.2) I was a partner in the law firm after all. 3) Soccer could be a tiring sport, as well. 4) Soccer could be a tiring sport as well.I'd use this version. It's all one idea without pause you're expressing. 5) Timmy wanted to go fishing, too. 6) Timmy wanted to go fishing too.Again, one idea without pause, so I wouldn't put a comma. I'd use this version. 7) Marcy didn't know which shirt to choose, either. 8) Marcy didn't know which shirt to choose either. Another example involving one idea without pause. This is the version I'd use. Any explanations as to the reasoning why something is correct or not would be appreciated. Thanks.

Basically, if it is one idea expressed without a pause, you don't use a comma. I believe comma use also has become somewhat less in recent times.

Maryn · Nov 12, 2020

With the understanding that I'm pretty good at this sort of thing, but far from all-knowing...

1) I was a partner in the law firm, after all.
Correct as it is. The words after all make up a parenthetical, an additional few words not necessary for the reader's comprehension of the sentence.

2) I was a partner in the law firm after all.
Incorrect. When the parenthetical is not separated by a comma (or a pair of commas if it comes mid-sentence), it lets the reader misinterpret and invites a sort of mental stumble. I was a partner in the law firm after... leads the reader to expect an event, perhaps someone else making partner, or something notable about the law firm, after which the speaker was made partner. This is the mental stumble you want to avoid. I was a partner in the law firm after all can me misinterpreted as the speaker being the very last person to become partner.

3) Soccer could be a tiring sport, as well.
Incorrect. As well is not a parenthetical but necessary for the sentence's point, that in addition to whatever sport was previously mentioned, soccer is also tiring.

4) Soccer could be a tiring sport as well.
Correctomundo. (How do they run constantly for so long?)

5) Timmy wanted to go fishing, too.
Correct but rapidly going out of style, never mind what I was taught as a child. Many publishers' house styles now eliminate the comma before a final too. You won't be considered wrong if you include it, but if that's what you choose, make sure you're consistent.

6) Timmy wanted to go fishing too.
Correct in terms of house style at most publishers.

7) Marcy didn't know which shirt to choose, either.
Correct, although like too, the comma before either is losing ground. The forward-thinking concept is that without the comma, the added word becomes a more integral part of the total concept.

8) Marcy didn't know which shirt to choose either.
Correct in terms of most house styles. As with too, pick which way you like it and be consistent.

Maryn, expecting Chase to mosey in here soon enough

Woollybear · Nov 12, 2020

I'm procrastinating.

Soccer could be an expensive sport. Soccer could be a tiring sport, as well.

??

Gregg Bell · Nov 12, 2020

ChaseJxyz said:
I would do:

I war a partner in the law firm, after all. | Soccer could be a tiring sport as well. | Timmy wanted to go fishing, too. | Marcy didn't know which shirt to choose, either.

For all but the soccer one, if you said those aloud, you'd probably pause, right? Timmy wanted to go fishing [pause] too. That's what helps me a lot with remembering how to use commas. The after all/too/either is kinda like an afterthought to the main sentence. It doesn't NEED to be there, but adds something.

Now for the soccer one, I imagine that, in context, there's other things you're talking about, other tiring sports. Something like "I was always exhausted from playing basketball at the Y. Soccer could be a tiring sport as well." The "as well" is kind of important, because the sentence wouldn't make sense in context. "I was always exhausted from playing basketball at the Y. Soccer could be a tiring sport." Reading like that, it's like, okay, why did you put in that thing about soccer? It doesn't really make sense or fits. So the "as well" is a critical/main part of the sentence.

Thanks Chase. For whatever reason, my mind likes certainty when it comes to punctuation. I, of course, notice when the meaning of the sentence calls to punctuate it a certain way, but, when in doubt, I often default to the automatic certainty method. I need to pay more attention to nuanced context, as you say.

Gregg Bell · Nov 12, 2020

SAWeiner said:
Hi. My comments are below in color.

Basically, if it is one idea expressed without a pause, you don't use a comma. I believe comma use also has become somewhat less in recent times.

Thanks SAWeiner. What you say makes sense, but I tend to write fast and deciding which is one idea and which isn't often gets short shrift. And then if I'm putting a comma before "too" or "either" or "after all" sometimes and not others, the writing looks inconsistent (and I look like I don't know what I'm doing, which happens to be true, but I want to do my best to disguise this from the reader).

Gregg Bell · Nov 12, 2020

Maryn said:
With the understanding that I'm pretty good at this sort of thing, but far from all-knowing...

1) I was a partner in the law firm, after all.
Correct as it is. The words after all make up a parenthetical, an additional few words not necessary for the reader's comprehension of the sentence.

2) I was a partner in the law firm after all.
Incorrect. When the parenthetical is not separated by a comma (or a pair of commas if it comes mid-sentence), it lets the reader misinterpret and invites a sort of mental stumble. I was a partner in the law firm after... leads the reader to expect an event, perhaps someone else making partner, or something notable about the law firm, after which the speaker was made partner. This is the mental stumble you want to avoid. I was a partner in the law firm after all can me misinterpreted as the speaker being the very last person to become partner.

3) Soccer could be a tiring sport, as well.
Incorrect. As well is not a parenthetical but necessary for the sentence's point, that in addition to whatever sport was previously mentioned, soccer is also tiring.

4) Soccer could be a tiring sport as well.
Correctomundo. (How do they run constantly for so long?)

5) Timmy wanted to go fishing, too.
Correct but rapidly going out of style, never mind what I was taught as a child. Many publishers' house styles now eliminate the comma before a final too. You won't be considered wrong if you include it, but if that's what you choose, make sure you're consistent.

6) Timmy wanted to go fishing too.
Correct in terms of house style at most publishers.

7) Marcy didn't know which shirt to choose, either.
Correct, although like too, the comma before either is losing ground. The forward-thinking concept is that without the comma, the added word becomes a more integral part of the total concept.

8) Marcy didn't know which shirt to choose either.
Correct in terms of most house styles. As with too, pick which way you like it and be consistent.

Maryn, expecting Chase to mosey in here soon enough

Thanks Maryn. Great explanations. Regarding

Many publishers' house styles now eliminate the comma before a final too.

I have always put a comma before too and either. But the more contemporary fiction I read (which is what I write as well), the more it seems hardly anyone does. And not only that, but many popular fiction writers don't include commas to separate independent clauses in a sentence, whereas I do, unless the sentence is exceptionally short.

Regarding this post, the tricky one is as well. That for me has always had a comma before it, as well, but I can see that I've been wrong (for the most part).

Because you will have sentences like this:

The exams are nearly here. Our teacher has covered most of the parts of the syllabus in great detail. But there are some topics he hasn't covered, as well.

The exams are nearly here. Our teacher has covered most of the parts of the syllabus in great detail. But there are some topics he hasn't covered as well.

where the comma (depending on the context) is necessary.

I'm always looking for hard and fast rules but it seems context is always king.

And I think I'm going to go minimalist and ditch the commas before too and either, and between independent clauses in a sentence as long as they aren't necessary for clarity.

Gregg Bell · Nov 12, 2020

Woollybear said:
I'm procrastinating. Soccer could be an expensive sport. Soccer could be a tiring sport, as well. ??

Yeah, like your second sentence and as well is like too.

Maryn · Nov 12, 2020

Oh, I agree completely about context being king. And clarity is queen. You and I, mere pawns.

Maryn, watching Queen's Gambit

Roxxsmom · Nov 12, 2020

I would argue that "I was a partner in the law firm after all" and "I was partner in the law firm, after all" could both be correct, but they mean different things.

One is a parenthetical, requiring the comma because the main point of the sentence is that the speaker is a partner in the law firm and the after all is just an afterthought. But the second possible meaning is that the "after all" is central to the meaning of the sentence. Or to put it another way, "after all the attempts to the contrary, the speaker is still a partner in the firm."

I have a minor pet peeve about modern editorial practices, which often omit commas needed for clarity. I will read the sentence in one way but discover later that I misinterpreted the meaning of the sentence.

A common error is the "My sister Mary" vs "My sister, Mary" distinction. The former implies there is more than one sister and the speaker is referring specifically to just one of them, while the latter implies they have just one sister (whose name happens to be Mary).

It is annoying to have a missing comma in such a sentence and to assume the person has more than one sister but to discover later that there actually is just one sister.

It is getting more common to omit commas used in introductory elements of sentences too. Often such commas aren't needed. But sometimes this omission leads me to misinterpret where the introductory element ends and the main sentence begins. It's more likely to be an issue when both the introductory element and the part of the sentence that follows are complex.

be frank · Nov 12, 2020

I mean, when you're really not sure, there's always the tried and true method of ... workarounds. Frex:

Gregg Bell said:
1) I was a partner in the law firm, after all. 2) I was a partner in the law firm after all.

After all, I was a partner in the law firm.

Gregg Bell said:
3) Soccer could be a tiring sport, as well. 4) Soccer could be a tiring sport as well

Soccer could also be a tiring sport.

Gregg Bell · Nov 13, 2020

Maryn said:
Oh, I agree completely about context being king. And clarity is queen. You and I, mere pawns.

Maryn, watching Queen's Gambit

Gregg Bell · Nov 13, 2020

One is a parenthetical, requiring the comma because the main point of the sentence is that the speaker is a partner in the law firm and the after all is just an afterthought. But the second possible meaning is that the "after all" is central to the meaning of the sentence. Or to put it another way, "after all the attempts to the contrary, the speaker is still a partner in the firm."

Good point.

I have a minor pet peeve about modern editorial practices, which often omit commas needed for clarity.

I agree. Anything that makes the reader reread something is problematic. I'm going to stick with more commas. Sure, a few short introductory clauses don't need them, but sentences with two independent clauses do. I enjoy reading well punctuated prose. So much of the contemporary (less punctuated) prose just seems lazy and sloppy.

Gregg Bell · Nov 13, 2020

be frank said:
I mean, when you're really not sure, there's always the tried and true method of ... workarounds. Frex:

After all, I was a partner in the law firm.

Soccer could also be a tiring sport.

Thanks be frank. Yeah, it's good to be reminded that when stuck, there're always work-arounds.

clawyer80 · Dec 3, 2020

What about in dialogue when someone is addressing someone with a title. For example:

"I will do it immediately, Your Majesty"

Is that comma correct? Also for bonus point is the capitalization of "Your Majesty" also correct?

Bufty · Dec 3, 2020

Ranks and titles are capitalised when used as a direct address.

Addressing anyone by name or by rank or title requires a comma before the name, rank, or title - and after should the dialogue continue in the same sentence.

If your example is a complete sentence there should be a full stop, or period, after Your Majesty and within the dialogue quotes.

clawyer80 said:
What about in dialogue when someone is addressing someone with a title. For example:

"I will do it immediately, Your Majesty"

Is that comma correct? Also for bonus point is the capitalization of "Your Majesty" also correct?

clawyer80 · Dec 3, 2020

Bufty said:
Ranks and titles are capitalised when used as a direct address.

Addressing anyone by name or by rank or title requires a comma before the name, rank, or title - and after should the dialogue continue in the same sentence.

Ok, I've been right on that. Thanks. As a follow-up though, you said titles are capitalized for direct address, but what if you're not actually addressing a character but specifically talking about that character. For example:

"The king is a great man." <--- Should the "k" be capitalized there since we are talking about a specific person? Thanks.

Bufty · Dec 3, 2020

clawyer80 said:
Ok, I've been right on that. Thanks. As a follow-up though, you said titles are capitalized for direct address, but what if you're not actually addressing a character but specifically talking about that character. For example:

"The king is a great man." <--- Should the "k" be capitalized there since we are talking about a specific person? Thanks.

Is the speaker directly addressing the king? Is he speaking to the king?

That should give you your answer. :Hug2:

clawyer80 · Dec 3, 2020

Bufty said:
Is the speaker directly addressing the king? Is he speaking to the king?

That should give you your answer.

Nope, not necessarily addressing the king. I don't know why, but for some reason I thought that the title was capitalized whenever being used in a situation where it could be interchangeable with a character's actual name. I guess that's not true. Thanks.

Bufty · Dec 3, 2020

clawyer80 said:
Nope, not ~~necessarily~~ addressing the king. I don't know why, but for some reason I thought that the title was capitalized whenever being used in a situation where it could be interchangeable with a character's actual name. I guess that's not true. Thanks.

It's much easier to remember to capitalise when addressing directly.

Not talking about but addressing directly. OR when using the full title and name - King George, General Watson, but the king, or the general.

clawyer80 · Dec 3, 2020

Bufty said:
It's much easier to remember to capitalise when addressing directly.

Not talking about but addressing directly. OR when using the full title and name - King George, General Watson, but the king, or the general.

Got it. Thanks. That's one of those things that has been a question in my writing for a while that I never got around to addressing.

SapereAude · Jan 13, 2021

Roxxsmom said:
I would argue that "I was a partner in the law firm after all" and "I was partner in the law firm, after all" could both be correct, but they mean different things.

One is a parenthetical, requiring the comma because the main point of the sentence is that the speaker is a partner in the law firm and the after all is just an afterthought. But the second possible meaning is that the "after all" is central to the meaning of the sentence. Or to put it another way, "after all the attempts to the contrary, the speaker is still a partner in the firm."

You are correct. Both sentences are grammatically correct, but they have different meanings (or different connotations).

Comma questions

Gregg Bell

ChaseJxyz

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SAWeiner

Maryn

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Woollybear

Gregg Bell

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Gregg Bell

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Maryn

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Roxxsmom

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be frank

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Gregg Bell

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Gregg Bell

clawyer80

Bufty

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clawyer80

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

clawyer80

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

clawyer80

SapereAude