AOC has some harsh words for her party

Introversion · Nov 8, 2020

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/08/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-ends-truce-by-warning-incompetent-democratic-party

The Guardian said:
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has criticised the Democratic party for incompetence in a no-holds-barred, post-election interview with the New York Times, warning that if the Biden administration does not put progressives in top positions, the party would lose big in the 2022 midterm elections.

Signaling that the internal moratorium in place while the Democrats worked to defeat Donald Trump was over, the leftwing New York representative sharply rejected the notion advanced by some Democrats that progressive messaging around the Movement for Black Lives and the Green New Deal led to the party’s loss of congressional seats in last week’s election.

The real problem, said Ocasio-Cortez, was that the party lacked “core competencies” to run campaigns.

“There’s a reason Barack Obama built an entire national campaign apparatus outside of the Democratic National Committee,” she told the Times’ Astead Herndon. “And there’s a reason that when he didn’t activate or continue that, we lost House majorities. Because the party – in and of itself – does not have the core competencies, and no amount of money is going to fix that.”

Ocasio-Cortez, who defeated a longtime Democratic politician in 2018 and who won re-election in her Bronx district by more than 50 points, endorsed the Vermont senator, Bernie Sanders, over Joe Biden in the Democratic presidential primary.

Since then, Ocasio-Cortez and her closest allies in Congress – a four-woman group known as “the squad” who all won reelection last week – toed the party line while calling on grassroots activists to boost Biden and Democrats down-ticket.

The truce is over. The failure of the party to operate an online strategy “in a real way that exhibits competence”, Ocasio-Cortez told the Times, made it hypocritical for the party to advance criticism of progressive messaging.

“If I lost my election, and I went out and I said: ‘This is moderates’ fault. This is because you didn’t let us have a floor vote on Medicare for all.’ And they opened the hood on my campaign, and they found that I only spent $5,000 on TV ads the week before the election?” Ocasio-Cortez said. “They would laugh. And that’s what they look like right now trying to blame the Movement for Black Lives for their loss.”

Grassroots activism that produced large turnout in Detroit, Philadelphia and Georgia was crucial to Biden’s win, and if the Democratic party fails to recognise that and incorporate the grassroots, the party disintegrates at the ballot box, Ocasio-Cortez said.

“It’s really hard for us to turn out nonvoters when they feel like nothing changes for them. When they feel like people don’t see them, or even acknowledge their turnout,” Ocasio-Cortez said.

“If the party believes after 94% of Detroit went to Biden, after Black organisers just doubled and tripled turnout down in Georgia, after so many people organised Philadelphia, the signal from the Democratic party is the John Kasich won us this election? I mean, I can’t even describe how dangerous that is.”

...

I emphasized the part I agree strongly with.

BenPanced · Nov 8, 2020

Can't Biden just take office before she starts playing progressiver-than-thou? Please? JFC. Look. We know he isn't the promised savior Bernie Sanders. Nobody is and nobody will be on par with him according to his ardent supporters. It's not going to be a magical wave of Biden's wand and everything is magically rebooted to the days before tRump and sunshine and lollipops and life is a goddamned motherfucking buttercup of love. I think she's foolish with her "well, if Bernie had gotten the nomination..." stance. She has no fucking way of knowing what Bernie would have done if Bernie had gotten the nomination. Yeah, Bernie Sanders would have done what Bernie Sanders would have done to win and if Biden took a different tack, then so fucking what? Again, just wait for Biden to assume office and try to get some shit done, already; he has enough of an uphill climb ahead of him with both houses still heavily skewed Republican without being criticized two months before he moves into the White House that he's disappointed people who've voted for him. Nothing's changed yet. Nothing's happened. Just let him do his fucking job already. Of course, I can see her ripping into him when something's stalled because of standard Republican jackholism because BERNIE would have done a better job, never mind how many Republican votes are stacked against him.

Roxxsmom · Nov 8, 2020

The Democratic party has its work cut out for it, because appealing to the younger and more progressive elements of the party appears to be at cross purposes with regaining the support of at least some of the White working class voters who were once solid Democrats in the rust belt and "purple" parts of the west and south. And lest we forget, not all Democratic-leaning constituencies (such as African American and Latinx voters) are as socially progressive as college-educated White folks from the more prosperous parts of the west and northeast. Frex, Amendment 8 (an anti-same sex marriage proposition) passed in CA in 2008, the same year Obama won the state by huge margins, in spite of polling more poorly prior. African American voters turned out in record numbers in CA in 2008, and many of them opposed same-sex marriage.

Things have changed in the past 12 years certainly, but demographics are complex, even in very blue states. For instance, CA voted rather conservatively on most of our propositions this time around, even as the state overwhelmingly repudiated Trump and kept its Democratic majority in the state assembly and senate.

In any case, the Democratic party cannot win elections with just its socially and economically progressive base, which reside disproportionately in the northeast and the west coast. If elections were won with popular votes, yes, it would be possible. But since the electoral college is something we're stuck with for the foreseeable future, we cannot win Presidential elections with just those solidly blue states.

How to convince younger socially progressive voters and marginalized people both to turn out in vast numbers when not united by their common fear of a would-be White Nationalist dictator is a challenge. Doing so while also adopting policies that help poorer White people in rural regions and states will be even more so. It may not be impossible, but it will certainly be a struggle.

I think the difficulties inherent in balancing the needs and priorities of everyone who is not either rich and highly privileged or uneducated, working class, pro-theocracy White folks in the more diverse and inclusive of our two parties is as much to blame for the difficulties Democrats have had in galvanizing all their voters in off year elections as is DNC incompetence.

MaeZe · Nov 8, 2020

I don't get it. They didn't even wait for the inauguration before they started griping about what they didn't get yet. AOC is an incredibly smart person as was demonstrated by her questions in the House hearings. But you wouldn't know it by how impatient she is to get 100% of the Progressive platform accomplished without considering it won't get done like that. You have to get more people on your side than half of half of the voting public.

Is it Bernie anger bubbling back up after they couldn't hold it in any longer? Is it because they are enveloped in some kind of uber-progressive bubble, feeding off each other the way the alt-right does? Is it because they are young and naively idealistic? (I can relate to that.)

There were protests here in Seattle yesterday and one of the speakers was complaining about how many people Biden put in jail.

I heard an Hispanic speaker interviewed for some news program saying Biden didn't do enough for the Hispanic community. This was after Biden won the election, not before when it looked like Trump was going to win.

Sigh. I consider myself a Progressive. I want universal health care. I want education to be affordable for everyone that wants it including full scholarships for those that need it. I don't see how attacking Biden moves that ball forward.

lizmonster · Nov 8, 2020

Yeah, I fully expect to disagree with this administration a lot, but most of those disagreements are going to have to do with speed and implementation, not direction.

We just outed a fascist. I agree we need to keep our foot on the gas, and not sit back like this is some kind of reset of the last four years. But this is an actual win we critically needed.

PyriteFool · Nov 8, 2020

Okay, seriously?

Kasich threw the first punch when he accused progressives of nearly costing Dems the election (a claim that has little to no evidence to support it. Not seeing people accuse him of “harsh words”)

AOC responded. And frankly, she’s right. The DNC has a serious problem campaigning. They lost to Trump in 2016. That should be enough evidence that they need to shift.

Advocating for policy is *literally her job* and it gets done now, before inauguration. Especially now that Biden and Harris are taking on unprecedented authority to make up for the Trump administration’s incompetence.

But sure. The WOC is the villain. Now that they saved the election, it’s time to tell them to sit down and shut up again.

ETA: I also agree with the bolded parts of the article. What bothers me is the parts of the article and the comments here framing it as “AOC attacking Biden” That is a) inaccurate and b) reeking of sexism

frimble3 · Nov 8, 2020

As a foreigner and an outsider, it's probably terribly inappropriate for me to weigh in, but, I see the 'timing' thing as a reason. Why does AOC start this up while the battle isn't yet officially over? Trump hasn't conceded, the Electoral College hasn't done it's thing.
BUT by all accounts, Biden is setting up his team, picking people for key positions, and AOC is looking for seats at the table.
"Progressives in top positions" and "core competencies" sounds to my suspicious old lady mind like 'jobs for my and my Squad', if not Bernie himself, which probably means that Biden will spend his term fighting on two fronts. Because change is needed, but it's not all going to happen in the first week, let alone two months before.

Albedo · Nov 8, 2020

I don't see anything ill-timed about her comments. She barely even mentioned Biden, and there's nothing in the article about policy, so I frankly don't see what half the comments here are responding to. All I see are pretty incisive criticisms of the Democratic party machine's ability to fight elections, and defence of the progressive wing's efforts on that part.

MaeZe · Nov 9, 2020

PyriteFool said:
Okay, seriously?

Kasich threw the first punch when he accused progressives of nearly costing Dems the election (a claim that has little to no evidence to support it. Not seeing people accuse him of “harsh words”)

AOC responded. And frankly, she’s right. The DNC has a serious problem campaigning. They lost to Trump in 2016. That should be enough evidence that they need to shift.

Advocating for policy is *literally her job* and it gets done now, before inauguration. Especially now that Biden and Harris are taking on unprecedented authority to make up for the Trump administration’s incompetence.

But sure. The WOC is the villain. Now that they saved the election, it’s time to tell them to sit down and shut up again.

ETA: I also agree with the bolded parts of the article. What bothers me is the parts of the article and the comments here framing it as “AOC attacking Biden” That is a) inaccurate and b) reeking of sexism

I don't have any context for the Kasich participation in the discussion. In the article it's noted in the last sentence quoted but I can't read the article without registering which I don't want to do at the moment.

I heard AOC herself arguing with Nancy Pelosi back in AOC's first term and frankly she was unrealistic and came on without any experience telling experienced people like Pelosi what they needed to do. Granted I don't think Pelosi handled it well. But it's all too clear the further-left-than-the-middle crowd lost the primary and now they claim their agendas should be the top agenda for Biden.

Stop with this crap and consider working together. There is so much in common between the middle-left crowd and the further-left-than-the-middle crowd. There is every reason to work together and no reason to be a shit about it, demanding all these things that gave the Trumpophiles their talking point that Biden was an evil socialist. We don't need to give them an excuse right now to continue with that propaganda generated talking point.

The Affordable Care Act was destroyed little by little by the GOP legislators who brow-beat the act incessantly. You can't go from the ACA to "Medicare for all" and expect a different outcome. You need to take it step by step.

I too have concerns that Biden is too much in the establishment-as-usual. Now if AOC addressed campaign financing, for example, if her complaints were directed toward lobby special interests and she made demands that Biden expose the big money people who are trying to influence him, that would make sense.

But attacking Biden right out of the gate for not having the platform she and her allies wanted is so unproductive. She wants to tell Biden what to do. Well I want to tell her what to do. Ever come to a new place of employment and start telling the employees there what they should be doing? That's incompetent. A skilled manager that sees things could be done better knows that first you need to be seen as a team player. And when you start implementing changes you enlist the employees, get them to buy in to the changes. It means some give and take. But if you want employees not to sabotage the changes, you need them on board.

AOC, as intelligent as she obviously is, lacks that particular skill, how to enlist others to adopt her vision. That comes from experience she doesn't yet have.

My opinion, of course. And for the record, I'm all for the Progressive agenda. I'm not against it.

shortstorymachinist · Nov 9, 2020

Based on what I've seen of her Twitter account and the kerfuffle with Kasich, none of this feels unwarranted or ill-timed. She's defending her position after Kasich said she and other progressives almost cost Dems the election, and by "core competencies" IMO she's talking about some of the campaign tweaks it was necessary to make in 2020 with rampant COVID. She told people to ignore the infighting and get back to celebrating, but she's also not one to suffer fools.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the excerpt Introversion provided, I didn't see AOC complaining about Biden or saying how much better it would have been if it were Bernie instead. She just seems to be saying yeah, there are weaknesses in the Democratic party, but it ain't us.

Kasich comments: https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1325181753204461569?s=20
Comments on campaign protocol: https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1324694301234921474?s=20

Ari Meermans · Nov 9, 2020

I'm gonna go with MaeZe on this much—except for the manager-employee issue; in my experience, it's the new employee who wants to make their mark by offering up changes without first learning the whys and wherefores. And make no mistake, AOC is the employee, not the manager in this scenario.

AOC is right about a number of things but she's a grandstander and she lost me as an ally early-on because of that. She's also addressing the wrong audience; she should be making her case to the people who can fix those problems and offering to help, not fueling divisiveness and giving the opposition ammo. I don't know if that's due to lack of experience, emulating her mentor, just her own personality, or a combination. I do know she's making the transition harder for Biden & Harris and I'm not going to forgive her any time soon for that.

MaeZe said:
<snip>

But attacking Biden right out of the gate for not having the platform she and her allies wanted is so unproductive. She wants to tell Biden what to do. Well I want to tell her what to do. Ever come to a new place of employment and start telling the employees there what they should be doing? That's incompetent. A skilled manager that sees things could be done better knows that first you need to be seen as a team player. And when you start implementing changes you enlist the employees, get them to buy in to the changes. It means some give and take. But if you want employees not to sabotage the changes, you need them on board.

AOC, as intelligent as she obviously is, lacks that particular skill, how to enlist others to her adopt her vision. That comes from experience she doesn't yet have.

My opinion, of course. And for the record, I'm all for the Progressive agenda. I'm not against it.

sandree · Nov 9, 2020

My reaction to this was visceral. I just wanted a month, or even a week of peace and hope. The divisiveness that has permeated life for the last four years has been exhausting and soul sucking. I consider myself a progressive but I have also come to understand that I am part of a small minority in this country and that any progress at all is going to be slow and it will be a continuing battle. I do understand that this is a critical time for getting progressives into positions in the new government but charging right out of the gate with blame and recrimination is hard to stomach right now.

PyriteFool · Nov 9, 2020

Here is what I’m seeing happening. Kasich makes a provocative statement (you can agree or disagree with it, but I think it’s fair to say it was “divisive” and unnecessarily timed.) AOC comes back with the position that online campaigning is important, which might be the least controversial take ever. And now everyone is using it as an opening to vent every grievance they’ve had with anything she’s ever said/done. Frankly, that disturbs me. Read back through the article and observe where she was quoted and where the article editorialized. Everything folks are objecting to is stuff that the writer said. Not her.

She is not an “employee.” Senior Democrats are not her bosses. She already has a job, and that is elected Congresswoman in the US House or Representatives. Disagree with her, even dislike her, but please do no condescend to her or put words in her mouth. And please consider whether the response to her would be so visceral if she were a man.

Ari Meermans · Nov 9, 2020

I never said she was an employee of the Senior Democrats. She absolutely IS an employee—an employee of the American people. My response to her actions is exactly the same as my responses to Bernie since 1993. I absolutely share their ideology, but their words and actions are brash and unhelpful when it's time to roll up sleeves and get things done.

lizmonster · Nov 9, 2020

1) She's an employee of her constituency.

2) I'm aware of the context. I'm also aware of the factions in the Democratic party, and my sympathies have been with all of them at one point or another, depending on context. In general, none of them are progressive enough for me. In general, I'm aware that government doesn't change quickly or abruptly, no matter how much I might wish it otherwise.

3) There's some history around the 2016 election and Sanders supporters.

4) Everyone's very, very raw right now, for good reason. Personally, I'm finding my emotions settling into rage for what the GOP has subjected us to for the last four years. I suspect I'm not the only one.

5) Speaking of which, maybe hang up those accusations of misogyny. I'm well aware that women are capable of it. I also know my own opinions. In the large, I agree with her here, and let's face it, Kasich is a tool. But that doesn't mean I agree pouring gasoline on the situation is the best way to go.

JJ Litke · Nov 9, 2020

Elizabeth Warren pushed back against the idea of caving to the right on Twitter without being incendiary. It's possible to do that.

AOC is just exhausting.

AW Admin · Nov 9, 2020

Be gentle with each other please.

I'm operating on very little sleep, for several days in a row, and I know how tired and stressed we all are.

You are essentially in agreement with each other; you are disagreeing about methods of approach. That's ok, just be gentle.

ASSUME GOOD WILL

Roxxsmom · Nov 9, 2020

I'm much closer to the progressive side of things than the middle on most issues, but I've seen firsthand how good the Left is at dividing itself and at vilifying its own allies who differ more quantitatively than qualitatively. I see it at the college, and it's still happening at the national level. Are we always going to get along and sing "Kumbaya"? Of course not, but the frustrating reality of the situation is the left-wing branch of the party is not in a position to drive policy right now. It's not clear that even the more moderate Democrats are going to be able to accomplish many of their more modest goals.

I do understand why Ocasio-Cortez is speaking now, when Biden is considering who his cabinet might be. I agree that Biden should build a very diverse cabinet, ideologically as well as demographically. But it's also likely that the most progressive candidates will be nixed by the Senate. Heck, they may nix all nominees, just to be assholes.

I also understand why many of us would like at least a few days for our blood pressure to return to normal before we gird ourselves emotionally for more political battles.

cbenoi1 · Nov 9, 2020

> The real problem, said Ocasio-Cortez, was that the party lacked “core competencies” to run campaigns.

The Democrats ran against a cult. The GOP seats in the House and Senate were the icing on the cake.

> The failure of the party to operate an online strategy “in a real way that exhibits competence”,
> Ocasio-Cortez told the Times, made it hypocritical for the party to advance criticism of progressive messaging.

+1 for AOC. This is 2020. She proved it by streaming herself playing a video game on Twitch. And more.

> “It’s really hard for us to turn out nonvoters when they feel like nothing changes for them.
> When they feel like people don’t see them, or even acknowledge their turnout,” Ocasio-Cortez said.

Sanders-or-bust. Man, that worked so well four years ago. There should be some soul-searching action on the progressives' part as well. This divide cannot go on forever.

-cb

lizmonster · Nov 9, 2020

Sanders-or-bust. Man, that worked so well four years ago. There should be some soul-searching action on the progressives' part as well. This divide cannot go on forever.

To be fair, it's not a divide. There are as many Democratic factions as there are Democrats. We're the party of not-fascists and not-bigots. That leaves an awful lot of differences.

cbenoi1 · Nov 9, 2020

lizmonster said:
To be fair, it's not a divide. There are as many Democratic factions as there are Democrats. We're the party of not-fascists and not-bigots. That leaves an awful lot of differences.

Diversity is normal in a political party. You solve the differences a ahead of an election, not at the ballot box.

-cb

MaeZe · Nov 9, 2020

A couple of things. We should all be careful about news accounts of these events given the news media's inaccurate reporting (nothing to do with fake news) and their business model of selling scandal, controversy and treating every medical pilot study as definitive results.

I admit to my biases: what I saw of an exchange AOC had in her first term (mentioned above) and my lingering anger at Sanders from 2016 where he unfairly damaged Clinton. No need to get into those details as the only relevance is to my bias.

Beyond that, you kids get off my lawn. :tongue

darkprincealain · Nov 10, 2020

Dems lost seats the House. Both wings of the party may have their own interpretation of why that happened, but it looks to me like the centrists in the House in particular had poor execution on digital advertising during a whole pandemic, when an outsized number of people are home. All progressive House members meanwhile won their elections. Instead of the circular firing squad, maybe the better thing to do is regardless of ideology, have the progressives help the centrists learn strategies for being more effective with digital advertising. Seems more constructive than what is presently occurring.

BenPanced · Nov 10, 2020

But digital advertising is going to have what sort of sway over upcoming legislation, especially when such a suggestion is coming from a corner that's declaring, "You know, if you'd done things our way and nominated our candidate and used our methods, your candidate doesn't have a prayer, even though they've won"? If somebody had spoken up during the election and offered assistance instead of all these "Hey, you didn't ask. I don't care if we didn't say anything, either. It was up to you to know what we were thinking about" sour persimmons, yeah, there could have been an even more impressive lead from the Biden camp. And what would digital advertising do to people who don't have or don't want the ways and means to access it (I know several tech-savvy folk who absolutely refuse to get on any social media platforms, and my bank deals many, many, many customers who absolutely refuse to have anything to do with computers or teh intarwebz when it comes to their finances)? I'm just not seeing how Ocasio-Cortez making the statements she made after the fact will make people change their minds, rather than turn them off even further.

Bah. I think I'm finished here. It's only adding to the wreckage of my general health and well-being, which is exactly what I need after this summer I've had. I've said all I think I can say without repeating myself, so I'm just going to banninate myself from this thread. I'll be over here in case I change my mind about things.

*exeunt stage left, chased by a bear*

darkprincealain · Nov 10, 2020

This is not what I heard out of Representative Cortez’s New York Times interview. She’s also saying something different from what you’re alleging on twitter.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/10/democrats-anxious-after-election-performance-435600

Even moderates in this Politico article are saying the messaging is off. And not all four of the squad endorsed the same progressive candidate, so I have an exceedingly difficult time thinking this is just revenge for Bernie.

I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree.

AOC has some harsh words for her party

Introversion

Pie aren't squared, pie are round!

BenPanced

THE BLUEBERRY QUEEN OF HADES (he/him)

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

MaeZe

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

PyriteFool

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

Albedo

Alex

MaeZe

shortstorymachinist

The score is still Q to 12!

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter

sandree

PyriteFool

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

JJ Litke

People are not wearing enough hats

AW Admin

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

cbenoi1

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

cbenoi1

MaeZe

darkprincealain

BenPanced

THE BLUEBERRY QUEEN OF HADES (he/him)

darkprincealain