AOC has some harsh words for her party

Do you feel strongly progressive Democrats could have won in the districts where more moderate Democrats lost their seats to Republicans? Such as this district?

No. On twitter, Representative Cortez said, “Except the argument here isn’t ideological- are purple communities not on the internet? You can run a moderate message & not change it at all & my message still applies.

Dems must run like it’s 2020, not like it’s 2005. That has nothing to do with ideology. It’s about capacity.“

I think this thread is entirely too focused on a person and not on her point, and what she is actually saying.

Going to throw in my two cents, but keep in mind that I am A.) 24 years old, so fairly new to political engagement though still a young "adult," B.) by no means a certified political expert, and C.) so far left that my social circles likely represent a rather small portion of the U.S. population's beliefs (I'm a "Bernie Bro," but I still voted Biden because Trump is a fascist).

That said, I don't think anything AOC said was out of line, just for me personally. I've seen a lot of moderates tell young radicals "just vote Trump out, you can criticize Biden the second he is elected, but just vote Trump out please he is a literal fascist," and while a lot of puerile young people stomped their feet cried "no, Bernie or Bust, nobody else!" (and as someone who was a "Bernie Bro" myself I don't condone that toddler-like behavior) there were just as many, like me, who said "okay, I don't like Biden, but I'll vote out Trump for the sake of harm reduction." Now Trump has lost, and these young radicals are doing exactly what they said they would do.

They said from the beginning that they'd hold their noses, vote out Trump, and then point out the short-comings of the DNC establishment, and that's what they are doing. Yes, Biden is not technically in office yet, but he won. Trump keeps trying to fire off lawsuits, but they are being dismissed. Come January, whether the young radicals or the "squad" were nice enough to the DNC or not, Biden will be president. The deal was to hold your nose, vote for Biden, then critique the DNC, and that's exactly what is happening. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Maybe it's bad form to come right out the gate with criticisms, but I don't see AOC calling for an immediate re-enactment of the French Revolution, I see a young, successful idealist who is sick and tired of feeling shut out by her party, who feels the DNC is rejecting new ideas despite evidence that people want to have conversations about defunding the police, medicare for all, etc. And to be clear, I don't support all smear towards the DNC just because the smear comes with the pejorative "neoliberal,"

I think people like Shahid Buttar are way too focused on alt-right resembling "anti campaigns" against moderates like Nancy Pelosi (I seriously think Buttar has some strange hate obsession with Pelosi, and I don't condone that, or other people who shout "neoliberal" at anyone who doesn't express the same exact radical beliefs as them). However, I don't see AOC expressing hatred, or even anger, she seems to be voicing disappointment, which I think everything considered, is valid.

If I got anything wrong in all of that, feel free to criticize me. I'm not some all knowing God when it comes to politics. This is all just my personal opinion.

I need to cut myself off from commenting on this. I can feel myself getting emotional, and when I get emotional, I'm more prone to making a rhetorical mistake. I'm just trying to work out where we go from here. It's great that Biden won, it really, truly is. I called my grandma the day he won Pennsylvania and she said she felt like we "finally had our country back," and my heart was so happy for her. However, if we can't criticize the DNC, how can we improve it? Yes Biden is not in office yet, but the DNC is already working to appoint positions of power. That's huge. That will set the tone for the next four years.

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion, and I accept that, but Obama had eight years in office and barely changed anything. That's not his fault, he seems like a great man as an individual, and GOD knows I couldn't have done a better job, but his moderate approach didn't work, in my personal opinion. Again, you can disagree, but that's where I'm at. The U.S. was responsible for countless drone strikes on civilian areas under his administration.

I don't think he's a "neoliberal" like some radicals, but I don't want four or even eight more years of slow, incremental change either. I don't think that's enough. I know part of politics is compromise, but it feels like sometimes that's all the DNC does. I want real, genuine police reform, and I can't see that happening under Biden and Kamala, and I especially can't see that happening if we keep trying to court Republicans like John Kasich.

I don't think Republicans are bad people (they make up roughly half the country, it would be foolish to ignore their concerns), but I don't think their solutions are correct, either. We should be working to convince them that they are misguided, to bring them to our side, not putting them in positions of power to oppose us. The DNC is currently choosing who will be in power under the Biden admin, and I think we should look at that with some scrutiny.

I guess the question is, then, to those who are saying that they didn't like the way AOC criticized the DNC, what would be a better alternative? What is the "right" way to criticize the DNC? Or was it not her wording, just the "timing" of Biden having just won? And if that is the issue, when is it appropriate to criticize the DNC, and in what way? I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm genuinely asking. We're all on the same side against the GOP here, and from what I'm seeing most of you are coming from a place of good faith.

We differ in our approaches (I liked Bernie, which this thread has made abundantly clear is not a popular opinion), but ultimately, we all against discrimination and bigotry (and like LizMonster put so well, that's an extremely broad tent to be under). The diversity of our viewpoints might be daunting, but we all agree we want to reverse the damage Trump has done. I want to believe we can find some common ground here.

Do you think Obama would have been more successful if he'd tried to get a single payer system through Congress instead of the ACA? Would the Democrats have kept the Senate if he'd pushed the progressive angle harder?

Given the nature of our electorate at this time, I have trouble believing that he would have. Could someone else have done so in his place? This is getting more speculative, but to have had a chance that more progressive person would have had to be in his place.

I wish I knew why so many moderate Americans, even moderate liberals, are scared of things like socialized medicine, free (or at least dirt cheap) university education, more worker friendly labor laws, stronger environmental legislation, and a stronger social safety net. Most Americans say they support these things in polls, but they don't vote this way in elections. I hope this changes someday.

It was kind of amusing seeing Trump run against Bernie Sanders when Bernie Sanders wasn't the Democratic candidate, but would his approach have been more successful if he actually had been running against Sanders?

I am about to talk specifically about health care, which is getting a little bit away from the main discussion of "AOC calling out the DNC." If I am getting a little too far away from the main point of this thread, I am open to a mod informing me to take the discussion elsewhere, and I would happily do so.

I don't know the answer to how we could change health care, to be honest. I talked to my mom about this the other day, and she said that people had to practically die crossing the finish line in wheelchairs to even get the Affordable Care Act passed, so universal health care seems like it could never come to pass in America. I honestly, genuinely don't know how things could have played out different.

The public has an extreme public fear of anything resembling too much "government control," and so we have to win the optics war on that front. I think part of this is just pure "feeling" and not rationality on my part, I feel like the Democrats always compromise to the Republicans, and that the Republicans never do the same for the Democrats. I've heard people say that FDR had radical policies and received almost universal approval through good optics (Marianne Williamson was talking about this on her twitter), and while I'd like to believe we could have an FDR in 2020, the media campaigns for literal decades against anything remotely resembling "big government" have poisoned the well. I want to believe we can change the minds of Republicans, but the issue with that is that Republicans in power will never give up that power. I can change the mind of Dan who lives across the street and has never heard someone argue well for Universal healthcare or whatever, but no amount of good optics will change the mind of McConnell. He once flat out told Obama "you seem to think I care" with regards to healthcare. The Republicans had four years to come up with a new healthcare plan, and they didn't.

Going back to how the Democrats should operate though, I think it would be smart, even optics wise, to push as hard as possible for radical health care options, at least from certain sides. AOC and other politicians who take an "activist" approach don't always get their exact plans pushed, but they often nudge the Democrats to the left. Joe Biden ran on one of the most progressive campaigns this country has seen, and it's definitely not because he himself is a radical. I think that, internally, we should continue to turn up the heat and put the pressure on.

As for what we do about House and Senate Republicans, I don't have an answer. A smarter person than I possibly does, but I don't.

Roxxsmom said:

It was kind of amusing seeing Trump run against Bernie Sanders when Bernie Sanders wasn't the Democratic candidate, but would his approach have been more successful if he actually had been running against Sanders?

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As much as I love the guy, Sanders would struggled with Trump. It pains me to type this, but he would have lost. In the hypothetical Sanders/Trump 2020 election, I think people who complain about "both sides" would have had apathy about voting. Sanders would have lost, and centrist Dems would have blamed progressives for being divisive (MSNBC would have had a whole segment about how the Bernie Bros made us lose, etc.), so frankly I'm glad Biden could get enough support from the center to pull off a victory.

However, for me, whether or not someone I personally like is president is irrelevant to my belief that Democrats who put pressure on Biden to be more progressive, even if their exact policies don't get passed, are doing a great service because they nudge the Democrats left. It now becomes a question of, to what degree should we call out the Democrats, and when are we going too far and sounding like the apathetic moderates who just complain about everyone being "equally bad"? What is the most optically effective way of advocating for Progressivism? These are questions I don't know the answers to, and I'm open to suggestions.

Though you're right, Trump calling Biden "far left" and "socialist" was beyond hilarious. If only Biden was half the Leftist Trump painted him out to be.

In reply to #31:

Going back to how the Democrats should operate though, I think it would be smart, even optics wise, to push as hard as possible for radical health care options, at least from certain sides. AOC and other politicians who take an "activist" approach don't always get their exact plans pushed, but they often nudge the Democrats to the left. Joe Biden ran on one of the most progressive campaigns this country has seen, and it's definitely not because he himself is a radical. I think that, internally, we should continue to turn up the heat and put the pressure on.

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100% agree.

As for what we do about House and Senate Republicans, I don't have an answer. A smarter person than I possibly does, but I don't.

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This worries me more than anything. On the whole, I think we have to figure out how to get the public more receptive to actual, verifiable facts. That's probably a long-term endeavor. In the meantime, having these intransigent liars in a position to obstruct even the most simple of changes is going to keep us completely frozen. If we're lucky.

ConnorMuldowney said:

The public has an extreme public fear of anything resembling too much "government control," and so we have to win the optics war on that front. I think part of this is just pure "feeling" and not rationality on my part, I feel like the Democrats always compromise to the Republicans, and that the Republicans never do the same for the Democrats. I've heard people say that FDR had radical policies and received almost universal approval through good optics (Marianne Williamson was talking about this on her twitter), and while I'd like to believe we could have an FDR in 2020, the media campaigns for literal decades against anything remotely resembling "big government" have poisoned the well. I want to believe we can change the minds of Republicans, but the issue with that is that Republicans in power will never give up that power.

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I think you are correct here, and it's a big part of our problems nowadays. I have serious doubts popular government programs like social security and medicare could get passed today, given our circumstances and the extreme fear of socialism exhibited by so many, including people not in the far right.

I see folks I used to think were moderate conservatives, or at least sane ones, insisting Biden is a senile old geezer at death's door and Harris is a "dangerous socialist." They are eating every conspiracy theory and scare tactic the right-wing media and groups like Q-anon can toss at them. To them, Trump was some kind of savior and Ocasio-Cortez is a scary bitch demon who would force them all to become vegans if she had their way. To them, the Democratic party (or the "Democrat party" as they call it) is the party of fringe socialism, Antifa terrorists, and Angry Black militants (and spoiled white youth) who want to tax them to death while eliminating policing so unruly mobs can roam the streets at will. They get almost tearfully patriotic when they talk about how brave police officers are being maligned by the Left and how our troops are being disrespected by thugs who won't stand during the national anthem.

I see folks folding things they personally value into their fear of the Left. If they love guns, the Left is coming for their guns. If they love living on a piece of rural property, the Left is going to tell them they can't build that house they've been planning or strives to make the installation of a septic system impossibly costly with all those "regulations." If they love muscle cars or big trucks or RVs, the Left will force them all to drive priuses. If they love a good steak, the Left wants to force them to be vegans. If they love their dogs or horses, the Left is in league with PETA and wants to ban all animal sports or even pet ownership.

I think the thing here is people often dig in, even become irrational, when they feel something they value is being threatened. For some Americans, some of the things being threatened are intangible as well, such as a feeling or belief about what it means to be a strong or worthy person, or even a true American. People who fear losing something will believe all manner of lies.

It also doesn't help that many are convinced that taxes are "higher than they have ever been." They blame the government for the fact that their money doesn't go as far as it once did and that they feel like they are working harder ever year and yet feel less and less economically secure. Criticizing the ultra rich is as taboo here as criticizing the gentry once was in feudal societies. So 90% of the people are fighting over 20% of our society's resources.

We have to find a way to chip away at these fears, but it's daunting. And in fact we may well be heading into a time where people will have to give up, or at least reduce our consumption of, many of the things we love. I know climate change is an issue, but it's hard not to despair when reading the latest report about what people will have to do, what we must give up, to keep the warming to manageable levels. I suppose it's not surprising that so many dismiss science, or cling to pseudo scientific hogwash that tells them they can keep on doing what they love without guilt.

Going back to how the Democrats should operate though, I think it would be smart, even optics wise, to push as hard as possible for radical health care options, at least from certain sides. AOC and other politicians who take an "activist" approach don't always get their exact plans pushed, but they often nudge the Democrats to the left. Joe Biden ran on one of the most progressive campaigns this country has seen, and it's definitely not because he himself is a radical. I think that, internally, we should continue to turn up the heat and put the pressure on.

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It's certainly the strategy the Right has been engaging in for decades now. Ask for something really extreme (by the viewpoint of one's opponent), so they feel like it's a victory when a milder version of that thing is passed. It might have worked twenty years ago, but the Right is no longer even about compromising to get their way. They've learned that when maintaining a status quo is what your constituents want, you don't even need to compromise anymore. You just dig your heels in and refuse to cooperate at all. As long as they have at least partial control over one of the branches of government, this tactic is highly effective. It's what's allowed them to stack the Supreme Court with justices that make previous Republican picks seem like moderate teddy bears.

Perhaps the Left has nothing to lose at this point, arguing for and promoting a more socialized health care system, but it will probably polarize us even further as the Right terrifies their constituents and the constituents of red states dig their heels in and elect increasingly conservative, conspiracy-minded representatives and senators. But this seems to be happening anyway.

As for what we do about House and Senate Republicans, I don't have an answer. A smarter person than I possibly does, but I don't.

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Me neither. But waiting for that smarter person to come up with a plan hasn't been super fruitful in recent years.

darkprincealain said:

No. On twitter, Representative Cortez said, “Except the argument here isn’t ideological- are purple communities not on the internet? You can run a moderate message & not change it at all & my message still applies.

Dems must run like it’s 2020, not like it’s 2005. That has nothing to do with ideology. It’s about capacity.“

I think this thread is entirely too focused on a person and not on her point, and what she is actually saying.

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Sooooooo, true. There's so much angst and anger directed at one Latina Congresswoman from one NY district and none---NONE---at all towards the Democratic Party, the Democratic National Committee, the Democratic Governors Conference, as well as the Democratic Senate and House groups that are charged with the responsibility of doing exactly two things: electing Democrats and beating Republicans.

And they did a shit job of it. The Democrats lost seats in the House. They lost statehouses. They didn't win the Senate. They couldn't even beat endangered walking dead Republicans like Susan Collins, Thom Tillis and Little Lindsey Graham. If moderates, liberals and butt-hurt Democrats want to blame someone, start with their so-called "party elders" and how they wasted time trying to turn Texas purple and blowing sloppy kisses to The Never Trumpers of the Lincoln Project who aired a bunch of snarky internet ads instead of doing the actual work to actually create a bloody blue wave.

But let's blame AOC, Rashida Talib, Ayanna Pressley, and Ilhan Omar for being pushy progressives who blew the election by suggesting the police be defunded. Losers always have a thousand alibis for why they lost, but it seems to take them a real long time to get to the place where they realize it was their own failures that got them to where they are.

A failure like Doug Jones. The soon-to-be-former junior U.S. Senator from Alabama who only won his seat in the first place because he was running against Ayatollah Roy "I like creeping on young girls at the mall" Moore and Black voters dragged a mediocre career White politician like Jones's over the finish line. Remarkably similar to how Black voters saved Joe Biden's mediocre career White politician's ass over the finish line in South Carolina (thank you, James Clyburn) and again in November 2020 (thank you, Stacey Abrams and the Black Voter).

In an article entitled "Democrats Need More Doug Jones and Fewer AOC's" a writer for William Kristol's anti-Trumper rag, The Bulwark echoed so many of the same anti-AOC's sentiments I see expressed in this thread:

Maybe Democrats want to allow for a certain degree of policy and ideological diversity. Yet Democrats like Doug Jones, Joe Biden, and even Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi risk political annihilation if they allow their party to be defined by the wildly progressive trio of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Rashida Tlaib, and Ilhan Omar. Even state level officials like Stacey Abrams have proved problematic, as her refusal to publicly concede her loss of the Georgia governorship continues to fuel progressive discontent. If these young voices are not the future of the Democratic Party, then its leaders should say as much. At the very least, centrist leaders should push hard to carve out some political space for themselves. That they have failed to do so up to this point is a discredit to themselves and their party.

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AOC and The Squad all won reelection and actually expanded their ranks with the additions of Cori Bush and Jamal Bowman. These extraordinary women and men are all People of Color who are challenging and charging hard against a status quo that has historically worked against the best interests of any American citizen who isn't White, Christian and cis-gendered.

Meanwhile, where's Doug Jones? A loser to a former college football coach who is so fucking stupid he doesn't even know what World War II was fought over. Let's not feel too bad for Dougie. He's being considered for a position in Mediocre Uncle Joe's Cabinet. Dougie will be fine. Democratic moderates always take care of their own. That's one reason why a loathsome hack like Rahm Emanuel is likely to join Jones in that Cabinet.

The Democrats want to bang on a brown woman for why so many White Dems went toes up in districts they were too weak to defend. It has to be AOC's fault with her Socialism, Green New Deal and Defund the Police crazy talk. Or maybe those Democrats that lost were just bad candidates who ran lousy campaigns. Crazy talk, huh?

There are two things Democrats do all the time. Turn on each other at a moment's notice over extraordinary dumb shit and eat each other while the Republicans stay on task, stay on point and stay in line with Don Corleone Trump. You don't see them beating each other up this way.

Because why should they? Their pussygrabber of a president got more votes in 2020 than he did in 2016. Mitch McConnell is still running the Senate. Amy Barrett is on the Supreme Court for the rest of my natural life and a damn good portion of yours and she's going to be fucking stuff up for decades. Oh, and guess which party will control how the Congressional maps gets sliced and diced up to their gerrymandered advantage until the next Census?

If I was a right-wing, conservative Republican, I would be feeling pretty damn good how the 2020 election played out. Really, what did you lose? An embarrassing Herpes sore of a president who can easily be replaced in four years by another vicious misanthrope who doesn't Tweet so much but will be just as ruthlessly authoritarian as Trump? 2022 and beyond is a good time to be bullish on Republican futures. No matter what else happens, the anti-Democratic, anti-progressive, regressive Right is steaming mad, highly motivated, and spoiling for a fight against the Left.

Unless you find Mediocre Uncle Joe to be a towering beacon of inspiration, can you envision any scenario where you would vote for Biden again with the same degree of enthusiasm a Trump 2024 supporter has right now?

Yeah, I didn't think so. This was the last time I vote for the hungry wolf over the starving tiger. No more. I'm going to need someone to vote for instead of someone to vote against. The Democratic Party is full of Doug Jones types and that's the problem. There has to be more space for the Alexandra Ocasio Cortez and Stacey Abrams who don't make Republicans feel warm and fuzzy and stay in the lanes the old guard Democrat bosses demand they stay in.

The future belongs to AOC and those like her and the sooner the dinosaur Democrats and too timid moderates recognize this and get the hell out of their way and let them have their chance at running things, the better everyone who wants more than what we're setting for.

Moderation isn't going to work. Thinking small will not work. Being afraid to say hard, harsh truths out loud no matter what the New York Times editorial page, Tom Perez, Barack Obama and the Democratic establishment have to say, they have had their chance and trying to play nice with Mitch McConnell and Rupert Murdoch is not going to bear fruit. It never has and it never will.

There's an African proverb that declares, "Tomorrow belongs to the people who prepare for it today." Ocasio-Cortez is one of those tomorrow people, Instead of simply hating on her from the Left instead of on the Right, maybe the best thing any so-called liberal mainstream Democrat can do here is try to help her get there by providing guidance, suggestions and support and by doing so in a way you're putting down some guard rails for a young visionary who is still very much a work-in-progress.

Because what I glean from a thread like this are a lot of y'all are saying, "Nah. I don't wanna be a guard rail for an AOC. I'd rather be a roadblock."

William Kristol thanks you for your assistance in making certain wealth, power and control remains exactly where it is and where it has always been. Here's what moderation gets you.

nighttimer said:

If I was a right-wing, conservative Republican, I would be feeling pretty damn good how the 2020 election played out. Really, what did you lose? An embarrassing Herpes sore of a president who can easily be replaced in four years by another vicious misanthrope who doesn't Tweet so much but will be just as ruthlessly authoritarian as Trump?

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This is something to fear: a candidate who is every bit as extreme as Trump and who uses Trump's successes as a springboard because he (and it probably will be a "he," though you never know) is also intelligent and capable of strategizing beyond public reaction to his latest tweet. The only possible hope is that one of the things people liked most about Trump seems to be how unscripted he always appeared to be (and probably was). If someone can figure out how to appear as spontaneous, earthy, and unscripted as Trump while being coldly calculating...

You're absolutely right that the Democrats need to figure out how to give their base something to vote FOR rather than against. Trump was a symptom of something that's been going on for a long time in our society. He made the disease worse, certainly, as some symptoms do, but he didn't create the hate and ignorance at the heart of his "movement." He amplified it and rode it to victory. It's possible that, if the economy improves, some of the "angry right" will lapse into a sort of complacency, especially if the next GOP candidates are less inspiring from their viewpoint. But we can't count on that. Even if Trump doesn't run in 2024, some of his spawn might. And by "spawn," I'm not just referring to his kids.

I find the Right's obsession with Occasio-Cortez somewhat puzzling. There is something about her in particular that gets under their skin. She's the person right-wing people I know are most likely to quote when they rant about how "CRAZY" the Left it. I suspect her being a woman and Latinia is a part of this, and of course Trump and his allies singled her (and Omar and Pressley) out for special hate early on. I wish there were a way to use this to advantage, but better political minds than I will have to figure out if this is true.

The Left needs a leader who can convince people that their economic and social self interest is intertwined, not in competition, and that we have nothing to lose by moving forward and trying a new approach to healthcare, education, economics and so on. So many people have bought into the narrative of scarcity that they believe everyone is in constant competition with one another and that any innovation could take something away from them.

The problem is, even people in blue states aren't as liberal as many suppose, judging from the result of the California ballot initiatives this time. I don't know what to do about this.

As for "sleepy joe," I'm afraid he might have been the "best" candidate for this particular situation. Sometimes being calm and understated is a better response to over-the-top bombasticy than a fiery, intense response. Especially in the middle of a pandemic.

I think if it weren't for Covid, Biden would have had a lot more trouble beating Trump, especially if the economy were still coasting. I hope people realize this in the future. But if it weren't for the pandemic, Biden may not have been the Dem's primary choice either, as he did surge from behind after it became clear that Covid was a real threat. I wonder if people sort of "fell back" to tried and true when things got crazy.