Is it possible for an earl to lose his title? (Regency period, England)

rosehips

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My male lead is an earl with a conniving younger brother. Short of murdering him, is there a way for the younger brother to engineer a scenario where the earl would lose his title so it would pass to the younger brother? I already have some violence in this book and don't want to overdo it as it's not really meant to get that dark. Could the brother frame him for something that would get him stripped of his title? Thanks for any help!
 

ULTRAGOTHA

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No. Once the elder brother is confirmed to the title, nothing but death can deprive him of it. Not even treason would do it (up until the execution).
(ETA: In the case of treason, Parliament can act in literally an Act of Parliament to remove the title. But why bother if he's going to get executed anyway?)

The younger brother would have to engineer a fake death that would convince the Crown his brother is dead (which isn't easy especially without a body).

However, if the father dies and the elder brother has not yet petitioned the Crown to be confirmed as Earl (normally a mere formality) the younger brother could apply to the Committee of Privileges with proof the elder brother is not the legitimate heir. It is not enough to prove their mother slept with another man if the eldest was born to the wife of the old Earl within a legal marriage. The second son would have to provide convincing evidence that the Earl and Countess were not married at the time of the elder brother's birth, or that the marriage was bigamous. If they have the same mother, that would also call into question his own legitimacy.

So, for example, suppose the Earl married the eldest brother's mother. She died. He remarried and had the younger brother. Immediately after their father's death, the younger brother could present "proof" to the Committee of Privileges that the marriage between the Earl and the elder brother's mother didn't happen. Or that there had been an even earlier marriage that overlapped the second marriage, but both women had died before his own mother married the old Earl. They'd both wander around town calling themselves the Earl of X until the Committee of Privileges made a decision between them.

But once the Crown has approved the elder brother's petition to be confirmed as Earl, there's nothing short of death the younger brother can do.

There might be ways to play with the will so the elder brother doesn't inherit property. But if he already has the title that's irrevocable short of an Act of Parliament.
 
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frimble3

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Not even treason would do it (up until the execution).
(ETA: In the case of treason, Parliament can act in literally an Act of Parliament to remove the title. But why bother if he's going to get executed anyway?)
So, not likely, but possible, if the younger brother does enough scheming?

It is not enough to prove their mother slept with another man if the eldest was born to the wife of the old Earl within a legal marriage. The second son would have to provide convincing evidence that the Earl and Countess were not married at the time of the elder brother's birth, or that the marriage was bigamous. If they have the same mother, that would also call into question his own legitimacy.

So, for example, suppose the Earl married the eldest brother's mother. She died. He remarried and had the younger brother. Immediately after their father's death, the younger brother could present "proof" to the Committee of Privileges that the marriage between the Earl and the elder brother's mother didn't happen. Or that there had been an even earlier marriage that overlapped the second marriage, but both women had died before his own mother married the old Earl. They'd both wander around town calling themselves the Earl of X until the Committee of Privileges made a decision between them.
Oh, please, please, someone who knows the laws and mores of the times write this, as a comedy.
First, the two brothers both claiming to be Earl, and the village and the ton taking sides, and partisanship and favour-currying. And all those families with marriageable daughters - who shall they pin their hopes on without actually seeming to commit?

Then, the appearance of an aged midwife or family retainer, who presents evidence of a third wife, and both claimants are hurled aside, possibly in favour of some unknown or unlikely third.
"No, yer not both Earls! Yer both bastards, and I've got the letter to prove it!"
 

L.C. Blackwell

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An upper class marriage would be so heavily witnessed and documented that charges of bigamy are almost a requirement. Not only would there be marriage lines, but settlements, christenings, re-issuing of entails, a copy of the parish registers that was supposed to be sent to the archbishop at intervals, etc., etc. It would be nearly impossible to destroy all the documentary evidence.

Bigamy, on the other hand, especially if the first wife was supposedly married in secret, is possible. There's always the poor woman who's ready to claim she was the first wife in exchange for a handsome payment. Bribe a disreputable clergyman, and create a little fake documentation, and you're good to go--at least until the case comes to examination.

Now, there is one other possibility that I can think of, which is: the brothers look so much alike that it's almost impossible to tell them apart. One could even be a year older than the other and this could still be the case.

Both have been abroad for some time (Peninsular War? Russia? Vienna?), and not recently seen by servants on the family estate. Your younger brother can hire criminals to kidnap the older one, strip him of all his possessions, and cart him off to some foreign captivity. He escapes and returns, but has no way to prove who he really is, until.... (cue the tender-hearted heroine to step in)
 

L.C. Blackwell

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So, not likely, but possible, if the younger brother does enough scheming?


Oh, please, please, someone who knows the laws and mores of the times write this, as a comedy.
First, the two brothers both claiming to be Earl, and the village and the ton taking sides, and partisanship and favour-currying. And all those families with marriageable daughters - who shall they pin their hopes on without actually seeming to commit?

That's not actually a rare plot in Regency novels. :)
 

ULTRAGOTHA

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So, not likely, but possible, if the younger brother does enough scheming?

Except that rosehips said they didn't want the elder brother dead.

I suppose, Younger Brother could gin up some evidence of treason, get his elder brother convicted, Parliament passes an Act to withdraw the Peerage, but before the execution Elder Brother manages to provide iron clad proof of innocence. The acts that constitute Treason are fairly specific and I imagine the proof needed would be difficult to manufacture. There'd then need to be a trial in the House of Lords with the best barristers speaking for the defence.

I *think* but am not sure, that an Act of Parliament to strip a Peerage would nullify the entire letters patent and thus deprive the Younger Brother of the title as well.
 
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ULTRAGOTHA

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Both have been abroad for some time (Peninsular War? Russia? Vienna?), and not recently seen by servants on the family estate. Your younger brother can hire criminals to kidnap the older one, strip him of all his possessions, and cart him off to some foreign captivity. He escapes and returns, but has no way to prove who he really is, until.... (cue the tender-hearted heroine to step in)

At this point, it would be so weirdly convoluted (ha!) that we'd probably need a better idea of what rosehips needs to have happen in the plot. ;-)

Because there are many ways that could go wrong including--if this happens before the old Earl dies--the Elder Brother not being able to claim the title when he gets back.
 

rosehips

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Thanks everybody! My reputation button isn't working, so please imagine I gave you all reputation points and specific thank-yous.

I like the idea of the brothers resembling each other, but I actually already have an identity theft storyline happening in the book with other characters! :)

Instead I will go with the bigamy idea. I hadn't thought of giving the brothers different mothers. I think maybe younger bro's mom would have to be the alleged first wife? So that younger bro doesn't look like he's illegitimate, too? Did they have marriage licenses? Or just documentation in the church where they were married? So younger bro would need to make a fake register of the marriage of his mom and their father, which he'd produce to prove that his mother was married to their father before older bro's mother was. Maybe buy off a minister, too, to say that he performed the secret wedding.
 

Marian Perera

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K. J. Charles's article How to Disinherit a Duke might be worth reading.

There was also a fake marriage scheme in Philip Pullman's The Tiger in the Well, so you could check that out to see how it was done. In that story, the priest who supposedly performed the marriage has been bought off. I suppose witnesses to the signing of the register would also be needed?
 

ULTRAGOTHA

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Instead I will go with the bigamy idea. I hadn't thought of giving the brothers different mothers. I think maybe younger bro's mom would have to be the alleged first wife? So that younger bro doesn't look like he's illegitimate, too? Did they have marriage licenses? Or just documentation in the church where they were married? So younger bro would need to make a fake register of the marriage of his mom and their father, which he'd produce to prove that his mother was married to their father before older bro's mother was. Maybe buy off a minister, too, to say that he performed the secret wedding.

I recommend reading KJ Charles's An Unsuitable Heir*. She gets into marriage lines and how marriages are recorded and registered and how hard it is to cover up (or fabricate) a marriage. Also you'd want to avoid much of that plot.

For Younger Son to assert that his mother (YSM) was married to the Old Earl before Elder Son's mother (ESM) was, he'd have to diddle with ESM's copy of her marriage lines, records in the church where the wedding was performed, the Archbishop's copy, the Government's copy, and deal with testimony from the presiding cleric and the witnesses. Possibly also estate solicitors. They'd all have to be changed to show YSM married the Old Earl before ESM did. And then where was YSM during ESM's marriage?

It might be simpler to introduce a third marriage that supposedly happened before ESM's marriage and overlapped it. With both First Wife and ESM dying before YSM's marriage. Younger Son would still have to diddle all the records and witnesses but at least he wouldn't have to explain where the heck his mother was during ESM's marriage.

But again, Younger Son must act either before or immediately after Old Earl's death. Once Elder Son is confirmed to the title by the Crown no amount of proof he's Not Really Legitimate will overturn that. Younger Son is SOL. Also any non-entailed property the Old Earl left to Elder Son would probably still go to him (unless it was left to "my Heir" instead of John Jones, my eldest son.) It's also possible that if Younger Son proves he's the heir, that will mess up the entails if they were re-done during Elder Son's lifetime, which is probable.


ETA: They had Ordinary Licenses, Special Licenses, and Reading Banns. Despite what you might infer from reading a lot of Regency Romances, reading the banns for three weeks in church was more common than purchasing a Special License. You only need a Special License if you want to get married in less than two weeks, or want to get married in a church in a parish that neither party resided in (IIRC).

But oooooh, the Marriage Act came in in 1753. It's certainly possible that Old Earl could have been married under the rules before then and that might be easier to fake. Or maybe there was a REAL First Wife and Younger Son fakes up some proof that she didn't die when everyone thought she did, but instead lived until after ESW's marriage took place.


(* Note that An Unsuitable Heir is the third in a trilogy. All three books are well worth reading.)
 
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benbenberi

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Alternatively the younger son might gin up a story how the Elder Son's Mother was bigamously married because she had a previous (and unsuitable therefore secret) first marriage herself -- say, to some strapping young sailor or tinker who then disappeared from view for many years but is now willing to Tell All about his lost love, with supporting documents and an obliging clergyman to back up the story.

Depending on the circumstances & likenesses, the putative First Husband could even insinuate that he's the true father of the Elder Son -- no way to prove that, of course, but if the Elder Son and the Old Earl were not both well-liked and well-respected men the mere suspicion that he's not in the right bloodline could be damaging to his case.

Younger Son would need to engage in some extensive bribery to provide corroborating witnesses to the alleged first marriage, as well as forgery, but if enough of the people who could credibly contradict the tale are already dead he might be able to make it stick. If there are people who have their own reasons to wish ill on the Elder Son or do the Old Earl an ill turn post mortem, so much the better..
 
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lonestarlibrarian

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One famous case in history involved the previous titled noble dying. He'd had a son, but his son had been lost in a shipwreck, and so the title and estate went to the next in line, who was, like, a baby or a toddler or something. Except the lost son showed up one day, and then everyone spent (years? decades?) deciding if the lost son was the real thing, or an imposter who had known him in real life. The family lined up behind the Baby Heir, because the Missing Heir hadn't really been that nice of a person and they weren't interested in his return, whether genuine or not, but the public's imagination was very much fired up by the thought of the Missing Heir's Return, and it was in all the papers.

I think it ended up that he was an imposter-- he was the lost heir's best friend, and the heir actually did die, and the imposter didn't have anything to lose by stealing his identity, because he much preferred to leave behind his own real identity because Reasons.

What would happen if, in your case, the Earl was the uncle, and had a son who had died under circumstances that couldn't be confirmed, and Character A and Character B were the sons of his brother? So the title passes down to the closest male relative-- Character A-- except Character C shows up, claiming to be the lost son, except he's really Character B's puppet and has been specifically groomed for the role, and there have been a few years' worth of time (and a significant amount of money) in bringing off the charade when the time came, because they knew the real Earl wouldn't be able to have another biological son to succeed him (because of other Plot Reasons).
 

benbenberi

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One famous case in history involved the previous titled noble dying. He'd had a son, but his son had been lost in a shipwreck, and so the title and estate went to the next in line, who was, like, a baby or a toddler or something. Except the lost son showed up one day, and then everyone spent (years? decades?) deciding if the lost son was the real thing, or an imposter who had known him in real life. The family lined up behind the Baby Heir, because the Missing Heir hadn't really been that nice of a person and they weren't interested in his return, whether genuine or not, but the public's imagination was very much fired up by the thought of the Missing Heir's Return, and it was in all the papers.

I think it ended up that he was an imposter-- he was the lost heir's best friend, and the heir actually did die, and the imposter didn't have anything to lose by stealing his identity, because he much preferred to leave behind his own real identity because Reasons.

This sounds very reminiscent of the case of Martin Guerre, a highly publicized scandal in its day. Martin Guerre was a young farmer with a wife and child who one day up and vanished and left a gaping hole in his family, property, and community. For years no one heard peep and assumed he was dead.... until one day he came back, a more mature and reformed character, ready to take up his responsibilities and be the respectable pillar of the community he'd run away from. There was much rejoicing... he & his wife had a second child... but then there was a falling out in the family and they took him to court as an imposter and not the real Martin Guerre at all. The entire village got dragged into the suit, some saying he was, some that he wasn't. His wife switched sides back and forth. The physical evidence was ambiguous -- did the real Martin always have these scars? Was this man missing the real Martin's birthmarks? Were his feet bigger or smaller now? How about his hat size? Did this mature man actually look like a 10-years-older version of the teenager who had left? If he wasn't really Martin, how did he know all those secret things that only Real Martin could have known? Or was his wife really an accomplice who had been coaching him all along?

There were court hearings, appeals, publication of briefs and narratives. All of France was transfixed! Finally, it looked like the case was going to be finally wrapped up in favor of the accused, who was going to be judged the true Martin Guerre and not an imposter at all... when thump! thump! thump! An ex-soldier with a wooden leg walked into the courtroom, and everyone involved in the case could see immediately that this newcomer was, in fact, the Real Martin Guerre and the gig was up for the imposter.

Real Martin, it seemed, had had a yen to see the world so he ran away from home and joined the army (the Spanish army). All these years he had fought in the wars, lived the free life, & never thought of going home till he happened to hear about the case and realized some stranger had stolen his identity, his wife, and his patrimony. Then all those things that hadn't mattered to him for 10 years were now Important and had to be reclaimed. The imposter had also been in the army and decided to become Martin Guerre after several people had remarked on his resemblance and the temptingly vacant role and property. The wife had helped him because she wanted a husband, and a better one than the runaway. But now, faced with the truth, she had to confess to having been deceived and beg her true husband's pardon. Real Martin resumed his place in the family and the village. False Martin was hanged.

Natalie Davis wrote an excellent book about it, The Return of Martin Guerre. Young Gerard Depardieu played the false Martin in the very good movie.

One big lesson: identity is an extremely difficult thing to prove, in the absence of DNA. People see what they want to see, and sometimes social considerations are much more important to judgment than mere inconvenient fact.
 
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ULTRAGOTHA

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The Committee of Privileges is perfectly willing to wait, and wait, and wait, and wait until there is an unambiguous heir. They're perfectly capable of holding the title in abeyance for years waiting for evidence. Or for all current claimants to die and a proven heir to be confirmed.
 

lonestarlibrarian

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I tried to remember the one I was thinking of--- you can read the details if you do a Google search for the Tichborne Claimant.

But I have absolutely no doubt the same story has played out many, many, many times throughout history.
 

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So, not likely, but possible, if the younger brother does enough scheming?


Oh, please, please, someone who knows the laws and mores of the times write this, as a comedy.
First, the two brothers both claiming to be Earl, and the village and the ton taking sides, and partisanship and favour-currying. And all those families with marriageable daughters - who shall they pin their hopes on without actually seeming to commit?

Lois McMaster Bujold has effectively done this in a Civil Campaign with two of the major sub-plots in great style - two variations on the theme. So science fiction in a modern feudal society.