• Basic Writing questions is not a crit forum. All crits belong in Share Your Work

Diversity

Status
Not open for further replies.

be frank

not a bloke, not named frank
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
10,310
Reaction score
5,282
Location
Melbourne
Website
www.lanifrank.com
For instance, if you wish to tell a story about six straight white men climbing up a hill, now it seems that one of the white men must be replaced by a woman or a black man or some other variety of person. But then it's no longer the story of six straight white men climbing a hill anymore. The story might be amazing, but no-one will ever get to see or read it.

When the group finally reaches the summit, one man plants a flag and turns to his five equally straight, white, cis, Christian companions. "Well men, this is it -- the hill we're going to die on."
 

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,336
Reaction score
16,111
Location
Australia.
More than one agent posted that they would reject a book out of principle if the protagonist was a (insert marginalized group here) and the author was not. So that’s a thing. I’m a very private non-binary person with an "invisible" disability, and frankly, I resent the fact that I’d have to make a big deal out of these things to get them to look at my work.

But - but - you're not being asked to make a big deal out of anything. You say 'more than one' agent would reject a story that didn't reflect the author's lived background. Okay - more than one is not a huge number. But also - that doesn't mean you, or anyone else, would have to make a big deal about your lived background in order to get an agent to look at your work. You'd need to do what you've always needed to do (write a stellar book, edit, revise, polish etc etc) and for the one or more than one agent who asks if it reflects your lived experience, you'd need to say yes - if your desire to get the agent was higher than your desire to keep your truths private. Or say, I'd rather not answer that.

Or not submit your book to that agent.

This is not some mass silencing of writers - this is just a little redress by a few excellent agents (mine among them).
 
Last edited:

JohnLine

Owns a pen.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 18, 2011
Messages
660
Reaction score
358
Location
California
You're okay with elves, dwarves, hobbits, orcs ents and ring-wraiths, but a single POC knocks you out of the story? Really - maybe there need to be more POC, so they get the same pass that the elves, etc. get: they are just part of this world.

I agree, I like fantasy that includes more people of different real world races and cultures. And I think it could be fun, if for example, all the elves were POC. Though I think if you tried to do this with any of the other Tolkien races (orcs I'm staring at you) it would become problematic.

And I'm okay with seeing a lone person of any race in a fantasy setting, I just get distracted imagining how they got there. If there's more than one, this is not an issue.

But I'm happy to try to get used to it. It's not like it knocks me out of the story every time I see a medieval person with perfect teeth.
 

amergina

Pittsburgh Strong
Staff member
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
15,599
Reaction score
2,471
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Website
www.annazabo.com
You know what?

I, a non-binary queer person, give you permission to write your white, straight male stories. Go and write your experiences and what you want to world to look like. Try and sell them. Good fiction rises to the top, they say. We'll see if yours does, in all its unreality.
 

AW Admin

Administrator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
18,772
Reaction score
6,287
I agree, I like fantasy that includes more people of different real world races and cultures. And I think it could be fun, if for example, all the elves were POC. Though I think if you tried to do this with any of the other Tolkien races (orcs I'm staring at you) it would become problematic.

And I'm okay with seeing a lone person of any race in a fantasy setting, I just get distracted imagining how they got there. If there's more than one, this is not an issue.

Tolkien had black elves in his mythology; they were inspired by the presence of black elves in Germanic myth.

But I'm happy to try to get used to it. It's not like it knocks me out of the story every time I see a medieval person with perfect teeth.
Medieval people who had food had pretty good teeth. They did have problems derived from eating stone ground grains, as did people in the early twentieth century because minute pieces of stone could damage teeth, but they had far fewer cavities because of their diet.
 

Tettsuo

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 29, 2011
Messages
129
Reaction score
5
Location
Brooklyn, NY
Website
soulinblackandwhite.blogspot.com
If the culture is homogenized, how that society treats men and women is equal, the difference in skin color is no different than eyes or hair color and sexual orientation has little to not impact on how a person is treated, then diversity is meaningless.

Sadly, that's not the social structure on Earth in pretty much any area.

There's currently a big push for our work to reflect the reality of our modern world and not the fantasy of one group having a lock on all achievements.
 

neandermagnon

Nolite timere, consilium callidum habeo!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Messages
7,324
Reaction score
9,554
Location
Dorset, UK
The problem with people getting all bent out of shape about diversity is that lots of people seem to have this unchallenged misconception that prior to the last 100 years or so, everyone lived in genetically homogenous communities and no-one travelled anywhere and England consisted only of white English people. That is an idea that has never stood up to historical scrutiny, and these days there's also loads of genetic evidence that shows that supposedly genetically homogenous communities were actually a lot more diverse than previously realised. But people tend to reject evidence that contradicts the views they currently hold, even when their current views aren't based on any actual evidence. Especially when they have emotional reasons for clinging to the ideas.

I'm writing a story set in Europe 40,000 years ago which has lots of diversity in it including Neandertals and Homo sapiens interbreeding, and gay and bi characters. We have genetic evidence that early Homo sapiens people interbred with Neandertals and Denisovans. There's so much of this sort of thing in human evolution that scientists have recently moved away from depicting human evolution as linear or a tree and started depicting it as a braided stream - populations becoming isolated for a while, evolving to suit local conditions, then coming together again and interbreeding. This has been going on for as long as humans have existed. And LGBT+ individuals existed long before humans did. Google bonobos.

Humans have always been diverse and I can't for one minute see why writers should have to pander to people who cling emotionally to ideas that have been proven wrong with evidence.

Why is it so far beyond some people's comprehension that during historical times people could travel and find themselves in places where their ancestors weren't? Palaeolithic populations that weren't even the same species managed to interbreed before boats were invented. People have had big boats since at least the Neolithic times. In historical times there were trade routes that went from the British Isles to China, via Arabia, connected with trade routes from parts of Africa. There's an archaeological site in Asia somewhere (India, IIRC) that had the remains of ginger-haired Europeans.

The idea that no-one can publish fiction that features only cis het white men is not true. If your story's good enough you'll find someone to publish it. Although if your lack of diversity is unrealistic that will probably not go in your favour. But yeah, with a small cast in the right setting it might not be a issue.

That last statement about sentient robots is particularly problematic - OP did you think that one through? To me it reads like "OMG, women have rights now? And people who aren't white have rights now? And LGBT+ people? What's next? Rights for sentient robots? The horror!" I don't see how giving rights to sentient robots can follow on from a discussion about diversity in fiction except by that extremely problematic line of thinking. Also we're a hell of a long way from building AIs that are actually sentient. So it's not a debate anyone will be having anytime soon.

Regarding villains, it's not true that only cis white het males can be villains. I'm female and love a well-written female villain. What you need to avoid are stereotypes and tokens and other problematic shortcuts that are also signs of weak writing. You want a female villain? Give her agency, make her realistic and give her a good backstory - same as for male villains.
 

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
23,128
Reaction score
10,900
Location
Where faults collide
Website
doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
Here we go, this is an interesting topic:

I'm one of those people who never worried about this; indeed, it seems that until recently nobody else did either.

People have certainly been talking about it for quite a while, and at least some writers and academics have been concerned about it for a long time. The publishing industry, along with other segments of our society, are finally starting to notice in a more collective way that the world is a very diverse place, and that it has always been a diverse place, but until recently western media has presented certain things as norms that weren't, in fact, normal. Think of all the gender inequities in movie casting, from the level of leads, to speaking roles, to extras in street scenes (and more than half male, and able bodied, and fit, and young, because diversity is not just about race). Think of all the TV shows, books, movies and so where there is the one token black person or woman or whoever, if that. We internalize those norms and don't tend to question them, but that doesn't mean they are the way life really is.

I can't help feeling that this is a fad, like space movies, kung fu, and westerns, and like all fads, it nails the story to our times. When someone picks up the book ten years from now, social niceties and opinions will have changed again, and not necessarily for the better.

I hope it's not a fad, and I don't think it really is. Once you've seen something, you can't unsee it. When I read books and watch movies and TV from a few decades back, I notice the lack of diversity in a way I didn't at the time. I also notice underlying assumptions about what a typical, normal, relatable human being is. I definitely notice the assumption that a book or movie can't be about anyone other than a white, straight, able-bodied guy unless the race, gender, orientation, and ability of the character is somehow a focus of the story.

But right now everyone's doing it, plopping all sorts of colours and types of people into a story because they allegedly should be there.

Your use of the term "plopping" makes it sound like it's done without thought, rhyme or reason. Your use of the term "allegedly" makes it sound like you don't agree that the world is a diverse place. Perhaps some are doing so randomly or without much thought, which isn't always the best approach. Obviously, there is more to creating realistic and reflective diversity than just randomly painting people with a brush. But it doesn't hurt to think about why we assume a character should automatically be white, male, straight, able bodied, slender etc. when we write, or why we assume every story with a character who isn't all of these things must be focused somehow on the person's gender, race, ability, orientation and body type.

And there are certainly settings or stories where it makes sense for a setting to be less diverse. A novel set on a WWII US submarine will not be terribly diverse in terms of cast. Chances are the major characters (or at least the ones part of the submarine crew) will be male, white (racially segregated military still, at least in the US), able bodied and slender (recruitment requirements), young and so on. But even so, the world they lived in was diverse outside of the sub.

And with no bearing on the story, when there could at least be a plot where green people who eat rabbits are mocked or persecuted.

Why do you think race, gender, orientation, body type etc. must have a bearing on the story only when characters deviate from white, male, hetero, able bodies, young etc?

Worse still is this oft-repeated line that people wish to see themselves depicted on screen or in a book. I have never come across any research results or opinion polls that support this assertion; if someone knows where to find it, it would be illuminating.

Aside from being common sense, the research is out there if you care to search for it. Worse yet, the way we see people who are like ourselves, especially when we are young, portrayed will have lasting effects on the way we see ourselves.

https://dsc.duq.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1003&context=urss

I https://theconversation.com/why-its...-to-see-diverse-tv-and-movie-characters-92576

https://spssi.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/josi.12096

https://writershelpingwriters.net/2...ature-why-its-important-and-how-to-handle-it/

https://litreactor.com/columns/representation-matters

https://www.bkreader.com/2017/04/11/importance-representation-childrens-literature/

https://books.google.com/books?hl=e...sentation of minorities in literature&f=false

We are struggling with differential outcomes in higher education right now. Seriously struggling. As instructors, we can't fix all the things that happened before the students get to our classes that put some groups more behind academically (in a statistical sense) than others. I certainly can't change the fact that a higher percentage of my white students had privileges growing up that better prepared them for college-level work. But we can try to present a more inclusive environment and be aware of our own underlying assumptions and of the danger of extrapolating our own experiences to others.

I teach students who hope to enter the allied health sciences. It is not a panacea, but it definitely helps for students to see diversity in everything from their textbook diagrams, to discussions about differential healthcare and demographics of disease, to examples of people from different backgrounds who have contributed to our understanding of science and medicine. So many have gotten the subtle (and not so subtle) message that people like them simply don's, or can't, do certain things. There is also the not so subtle issue of under-representation of different groups in medical studies. Does this relate to literary under-representation? I think both are facets of the same problem--a mainstream culture that sees certain groups as more "normal" or "typical" than others.

Anecdotally, I can absolutely say that under representation of girls and women in books, TV, and movies (and in our classrooms) growing up, and the way they were represented when they were present, affected the way I see myself and my gender, and not in a good way. This is still reinforced by unequal and limited portrayals today.

Another issue, one discussed less often, is that exposure to sympathetic characters who are different from oneself in books and media will expand empathy and decrease racism etc. in people who are of the culturally dominant groups.

To me the concept is faintly ridiculous: am I really supposed to be unable to connect with a character who has a different taste in music than me, or has a different shoe size?

No one has ever said this, but do you really think something as central to one's experience of self (not to mention the way one is treated by society) as race, gender, sexual orientation, or ability, are as minor and trivial as shoe size or your favorite music? Of course we can all relate to well-drawn characters of different genders, races, cultures, experiences even so. But does it not seem strange and unfair that members of some group have to do so far more often than others? Is it not a good idea, in a society where the consequences of this historical racism etc. is still very much with us, for white (and male, straight etc) people not to have more access to stories that allow them to learn from and relate to people who are different from them? Again, regarding gender, I eagerly read books about boys when I was a kid, and I enjoy books with male main characters today. But it would be nice of there had been (and are) more books and movies with good, well-drawn, and interesting, and varied representations of girls and women.

Also, this sort of thing seems to exclude certain types of story. For instance, if you wish to tell a story about six straight white men climbing up a hill, now it seems that one of the white men must be replaced by a woman or a black man or some other variety of person. But then it's no longer the story of six straight white men climbing a hill anymore. The story might be amazing, but no-one will ever get to see or read it.

If there is a reason for those six men climbing up the hill to be straight, then I don't think anyone would question that, any more than we would question a story set in a British boy's boarding school in the 1920s focusing on boys from a certain social class and ethnicity. But even within that framework, I suspect at least a few of those boys might be gay, or overweight, or have certain health issues or disabilities, and those differences would have consequences, even if they aren't the focus of the story.

But what is starting to be questioned is why we have such a glut of stories focused on settings and experiences that are white, male, cis, het, able bodied, youthful etc. Why so many tales about the male experience during war, and so few about the female? Why so many tales about the pioneer or gold rush experience focusing on white pioneers and 49ers, and so few about black pioneers or Chinese Americans working and living in CA during the gold rush? And why do stories that focus on the white, straight, male experience often fail to acknowledge that other people existed at all, let alone had agency?

The most interesting (and worrisome) aspect is that there seems to be a considerable and growing backlash to all this. (And that many people are complaining that now only straight white men can be villains). I suppose it bears some relation to the market and/or is a generational thing. So what to do, pile in with the diversity or sit back and see what happens?

I don't think anyone says only straight, white men can be villains, but if the only villains are members of other groups, or if the only characters who aren't white, straight guys in a story are villains, then less likely to go unexamined these days. There have been certain stereotyped villains we've seen so often in a completely unexamined way, that people are going to be sensitive to them. This will likely change with time, if a more realistic and multifaceted diversity becomes normalized in stories.

what happens when we start granting rights to artificial intelligences and autonomous robots? Now there's a can of worms we need to be prepared for.

Sounds like a good plot for a SF story, and in fact it has been explored by some authors. So have the moral implications of the genetic "uplift" of nonhuman animals to full sapience. But I don't see how wondering what might happen in a hypothetical future is relevant to our current situation when people who are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves are in fact saying that the status quo is not working for them.
 

frimble3

Heckuva good sport
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
11,674
Reaction score
6,577
Location
west coast, canada
Besides, what's all this talk about 'granting' or 'giving' rights to AI? Let the AI get their rights (whatever they may be) the same way everyone else did, by fighting for them!
 

Sonya Heaney

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 16, 2019
Messages
565
Reaction score
85
Location
Canberra
It's a slippery slope having female characters in books. The next thing you know we'll be giving robots the vote.

Okay, snarky comment done, I want to say something more mature!

Diversity just exists, whether you're aware of it or not. You can see white, blonde me in my picture (and so I clearly don't face the day-to-day discrimination people of other races do), but my mother grew up in a refugee camp after the rest of her family was sent to a Russian gulag because they were ethnic Ukrainians, English is my family's fourth language, and I do not identify with Anglo-Saxon culture At All.

My best friends growing up were from India, China and Malta. My brother is gay. People just exist, and most are not straight men of Western European origin.

Even six white guys climbing a hill would be more diverse than you would assume.

Edited to also say: There's room for everyone in publishing, and some stories aren't yours to tell. I'm still deeply conflicted about having an Indigenous main character in my last book, because I know from experience that if it's not your story, you're probably going to screw it up. When the Russian invasion of Ukraine began 6.5 years ago Hollywood went bonkers and made all their villains Ukrainian (as did a famous author I won't mention by name). It was horrific. And nobody had a clue what they were on about.
 
Last edited:

Sophia

Staff member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Messages
4,555
Reaction score
1,793
Location
U.K.
I'm too angry to write the considerate, helpful, patient responses that everyone else has written in this thread.

I'm going to use "we/our" for anyone who isn't a White, Straight, Cis, Able-Bodied Male.

Our existence doesn't need to be justified. We exist. Everywhere.
We have full, rich, inner and outer lives, every bit as complex, nuanced, and vast, as yours.
Yes, I fucking want to see myself depicted in stories, and there is nothing ridiculous about that.
The fact that you don't comprehend any of this and thought it was okay to post that pile of absolute rubbish (a polite version of what I think it is) demonstrates things I can't post because of the RYFW rule.
 

MacAllister

'Twas but a dream of thee
Staff member
Boss Mare
Administrator
Super Moderator
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
VPX
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
22,010
Reaction score
10,707
Location
Out on a limb
Website
macallisterstone.com
Chances are actually pretty good that one of those six "straight" and "white" guys is at least bi, gender-fluid, or otherwise not what he appears.

And that honestly would make the story of climbing that hill much more interesting...at least it would for me.
 
Last edited:

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
12,861
Reaction score
3,071
Location
Not where you last saw me.
I'm too angry to write the considerate, helpful, patient responses that everyone else has written in this thread.

I'm going to use "we/our" for anyone who isn't a White, Straight, Cis, Able-Bodied Male.

Our existence doesn't need to be justified. We exist. Everywhere.
We have full, rich, inner and outer lives, every bit as complex, nuanced, and vast, as yours.
Yes, I fucking want to see myself depicted in stories, and there is nothing ridiculous about that.
The fact that you don't comprehend any of this and thought it was okay to post that pile of absolute rubbish (a polite version of what I think it is) demonstrates things I can't post because of the RYFW rule.
(Emphasis mine)

More so, I would say from my own reading experiences. The advice to "read widely, read deeply" doesn't only apply to the various marketing categories and genres. It encompasses the works and perspectives of cultures not-our-own.

Anyone who has spent any time at all in the Contemporary Literature room already knows my love for Words Without Borders: The Online Magazine for International Literature. That online magazine has opened the world to me as a reader and lover of literature. Reading works in translation—as well as reading the works of LGBTQ writers from everywhere, and POC and ethnic writers here in the U.S.—opens our minds to rich, nuanced perspectives on the world we all inhabit and that serves to make us all better writers.

And better human beings.
 
Last edited:

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
12,861
Reaction score
3,071
Location
Not where you last saw me.
Chances are actually pretty good that one of those six "straight" and "white" guys is at least bi, gender-fluid, or otherwise not what he appears.

And that honestly would make the story of climbing that hill much more interesting...at least it would for me.

Hmm . . . those chances are probably better than "pretty good". Yep.
 
Last edited:

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,584
Reaction score
1,412
Location
The land from whence the shadows fall
Website
www.sunyidean.com
I am all about diversity. I try and add one straight white man to every novel to make sure they feel represented. But only if the plot calls for one. It wouldn't feel right adding a straight white guy for the sake of it.

Cmon, man. The world is so vast. What's wrong with people reflecting that? If your world isn't so big, then ffait enough, reflect that in your own writing. Have your fantasy be a tiny circle of white folks. But don't complain that the world being big is somehow making your space narrow; you've chosen to exist in that narrow space.

I'm an ethnic majority in no country, like most mixed folk. Not so many of us in fiction, either, except as the product of rape or as an exotic character who can be exciting to the mc u_u
 

AW Admin

Administrator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
18,772
Reaction score
6,287
With the exception of Keithy, I can honestly say I can't think of a single professional writer who advises "plopping all sorts of colours and types of people into a story because they allegedly should be there."

Because that would be stupid.

But I'm pretty sure I can find examples of most modern classes of people in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales. It's not that their presence makes the work magically better like the marshmallows in a box of Lucky Charms.

It's because Chaucer saw all sorts of people around him, and wrote about what he saw and heard and experienced.

If you're living in a monoculture and want to write that, more power to you.

I'm not your reader. But I'll point out that the next generation of readers, the ones in high school and college next year, they're not going to want to read monocultural fantasies either. That world, with its restricted straight white male elite power class as the only literate market, is gone.

We're here now. And we can vote with our wallets and our attention, because there are far more good books than there are people to read them, after 3000+ years of literacy.
 

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
23,128
Reaction score
10,900
Location
Where faults collide
Website
doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
I am all about diversity. I try and add one straight white man to every novel to make sure they feel represented. But only if the plot calls for one. It wouldn't feel right adding a straight white guy for the sake of it.

This post makes me realize that my work in progress quite literally has just one major character who is (arguably) a white male. Mind you, it's a fantasy world, and superficial physical features like skin, hair and eye color etc. don't correspond with the same cultures or historical contexts they do in this world, but he is the only major character is from a place where most people look what we might consider "white" in our own world.

I am always puzzled when people ask why a character "has" to be gay or lesbian or bi too. Why do the characters "have" to be straight in so many stories?

And think about all the video games where one can choose the character and appearance of one's character, and with graphics getting better, even to where one can make one's character have not only skin color, but facial features and hair type etc. resembling whichever human morphology one wishes (still room for improvement there--I could not figure out a way to give my character in DAI brown eyes that weren't either murky slate gray or orangey and really dark hair that wasn't greenish or blue, even though earlier DA titles allowed this).

I agree that it doesn't always, or even usually, work to randomly flip genders, races, orientations etc. in books, especially when set in our world where these traits come with consequences an author may or may not be equipped to present convincingly, and of course sometimes these traits do affect the story as well. If part of one's tale is a male character coping with what it means to be male in his culture as he comes to terms with his own daddy issues, then a gender flip certainly won't work well. Same for stories dealing with racial or cultural identity within a given social context. But not all stories deal with these kinds of issues.

An example is the Hobbit, which is a real sausagefest when it comes to gender. Not a single named female character in the whole story. But the characters don't "have" to be male. In fact, gender roles, gender identity, and sexuality don't come into the story at all. Someone did an experiment (at the behest of their five-year-old daughter) where they flipped the gender of Bilbo and Gandalf the Hobbit to female, and it worked just fine. Bilbo made a great female hero and Gandalf a fine wise old matriarch. Heck, even the dwarves could have been female, beards and all (I mean, some mythologies posit that female dwarves have beards anyway). It's not like the characters ever conversed about "boy stuff."

https://slate.com/human-interest/20...s-catch-up-to-our-daughters-rewrite-them.html
 
Last edited:

Drascus

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
148
Reaction score
19
Location
The Pacific Northwest
This thread is a trip. I was sure we were being trolled by the OP until I saw how many posts he's got on here.

Even in societies that we would think look homogeneous now, people at the time would not have thought so. People think of Russia as a super white area but it is a big mix of ethnicities and cultures that came together. Historically people had the ability to mass-migrate a lot more than they do now, and those distinctions were a big deal.

"White" is a constantly changing quality, and a shockingly recent concept in it's modern form, compared to the historical record. It also has no intrinsic value that we don't give to it, which is what's making so many people nervous, I think. All this diversity is eroding the value of whiteness.

Good!
 
Last edited:

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
23,128
Reaction score
10,900
Location
Where faults collide
Website
doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
But I'm happy to try to get used to it. It's not like it knocks me out of the story every time I see a medieval person with perfect teeth.

I know AW Admin already mentioned that people didn't get as much tooth decay as you'd think, prior to the widespread adoption of diets high in squishy, sugary, processed foods. Another interesting tidbit I ran across recently is that "crowded" teeth, which are the reason so many folks living in industrialized societies need braces, were really rare before the early modern era (again, when food began to be more processed and squishy). Genes obviously influence the development of tooth crowding, but in an environment when most people have to chew their food a lot more vigorously, human jaws tend to develop differently.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-we-have-so-many-problems-with-our-teeth/

This probably explains why we still have wisdom teeth, even though so many modern humans haven't got quite enough room for them in their mouths. It also explains why so many modern people have teeth that would have made it hard to chew effectively before modern dentistry and highly processed food. I always wondered why natural selection didn't winnow out the genes for wisdom teeth and crowded teeth when we were still all hunter gatherers.

As a dog person, I've long known that we need to give puppies lots of chew toys when they are teething and when their jaws are developing. Maybe this is true for little kids too. Like puppies, babies and toddlers want to chew on everything, perhaps for good reason.

Makes me wonder if parents fed small children (once they've been weaned) "chewier" foods instead of chicken nuggets and mashed peas, and if we gave them harder things to gnaw instead of pacifiers, we might reduce the need for braces later?

So anyway, street scenes with medieval peasants with mostly straight teeth aren't unrealistic. The thing that does pull me out of disbelief a bit, though, are movies and TV shows set any time before, say, the nineties or early oughts where everyone has these brilliant, bleached-white teeth. Tooth bleaching wasn't widespread before then, and beauty standards for what constituted "pretty white" teeth were different, even when I was a young adult. More than twenty five years ago, even actors in TV shows and movies didn't have the kind of tooth whiteness people do now.

As for the genetic diversity of pre-modern Europe, more and more evidence is mounting that humans are inveterate wanderers, and people have been migrating into Europe from Africa and the Middle East since ancient times. Ancient Rome was a huge crossroads, but different groups entered Europe long before. A few years back, I read a paper that blue eyes only evolved about 10k (or less) years ago, in the Baltic region near modern Estonia, but more recent research suggests that some of the folks coming into Europe from Africa brought blue eyes with them about 40k years ago. So I don't know if the earlier papers about the genetic origins of blue eyes in Europe were simply incorrect, or whether the blue-eyed alleles from Africa died out, but the mutation arose independently in the Baltic region later on and stuck around that time.

https://www.nature.com/news/ancient-european-genomes-reveal-jumbled-ancestry-1.14456

https://www.genengnews.com/news/dna...c-crossroads-of-europe-and-the-mediterranean/
 
Last edited:

Chris P

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
22,669
Reaction score
7,356
Location
Wash., D.C. area
I've been following this thread, and going back and forth on how to describe my journey in including diversity. At first, I pictured random characters as particular races for no good reason other than the sake of diversity, without considering how that character's race would influence his or her perspectives in the world. Being brought up in the time and place I was (1970s and 80s in a 95% white midwestern mid-size town) we were taught it was a good thing to "treat them just like us--don't see their color." Not discriminating was of course a good thing, but making them "alternative whites" by ignoring race-related life experiences that shape their worldview is not.

So, how to capture this diversity without resorting to stereotypes? I recall the actor George Lopez once saying some set expert said the kitchen on the TV show's set was all wrong, because there was nothing to identify it as a Latino household. George replied "What about all the Latinos running around?" (Never mind the actress playing his daughter, Masiela Lusha, is Albanian, but that's for another thread). That's where the threads on AW, reading op-eds on diversity in media and entertainment, and other discussions have been so valuable. I can't say I know how to do it with sensitivity but I know for sure I am less likely to make some of the same bone-headed mistakes I've made in earlier writing.
 

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
23,128
Reaction score
10,900
Location
Where faults collide
Website
doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
Chris is right about this, especially for works set in the contemporary world. The experience of being a racial or cultural minority, or an LGBTQ person, in a different time and place might be different, of course. That's where research becomes especially important, as the lived experiences thing won't necessarily be a factor in a historical setting, and the further back one goes, the more different things might be. Of course there may well be some relevance or relatability for people and cultures alive today if someone in the story is persecuted or a second-class citizen because of who they are or because their homeland was conquered and occupied by another culture.

As for a secondary fantasy world, that's even more open. With those, the writer can make up their own historical context and decide how traits like race, gender, sexual orientation, social class, sexuality, gender identity, family structure, disabilities, and so on are regarded in that setting.

One mistake people make is to assume that a fantasy setting "has" to be like the popular perception of a given place and time, not to mention the assumption that just because Victorians were uptight about sex, or that Colonialism and racism worked a certain way in the British Empire and its descendant nations, or that many historical cultures treated women like possessions, that these are inevitable historical facts that haven't been different in different times and cultures on our own planet or that they are immutable things couldn't possibly differ in a fantasy setting where things like the presence of magic, different biology, different ecology, different history and so on could push social evolution down rather different paths.

It's odd, for instance, that we can have various fantasy elements in a story--magic, fantastical creatures, different species of sapient humanoids and even non humanoids, gods that walk the world and interfere in human affairs on a regular basis--yet any departure from the way the average person imagines "Medieval Europe*" to have been is dismissed as unrealistic.

*As others have already pointed out, the Medieval period took place over a really long time, and Eurasia is a huge continent too, so there is a lot of variability there too. 14th century Florence is most emphatically not the same as 12th century Britain, let alone 9th century Norway.
 

Ravioli

Crazy Cat Lady
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
2,699
Reaction score
423
Location
Germany, native Israeli
Website
annagiladi.wixsite.com
There's diversity, and there's token diversity. I like to make my work as diverse as possible, but only if it doesn't defy logic. It's part of why I love writing stories set in Israel, as that country's population is overwhelmingly immigration-based and it's a melting pot of different backgrounds and mindsets. I would not have that liberty with a story set in, say, Japan.

I don't get the misgivings about POC in fantasy worlds. It's fantasy. Anything is possible. I mean, travel. Why would a black person not be able to take a giant eagle to the Shire if Gandalf can? Yes, fantasy is often created in a medieval Europe kind of flair, but even then, people from all around the world traveled. In Game of Thrones, it was very obvious where POC came from: geographic regions where people are darker-skinned. It worked. And why would a BIPOC person in fantasy be any more out of place than a gay person in YA? The whole point of diversity and representation in fiction, is to remind people that women and people from so-called minorities are among us pretty much everywhere unless they're ousted, and they deserve to have their existence and visibility normalized. You do not typically have to strong-arm a diverse person into a story. In the real life equivalents of those stories, diverse people usually exist, even if they're cautious about outing themselves. Maybe they don't eat with you at your table, which they may not feel encouraged to do, but they're in your cafeteria for sure, so if they can be extras in your story, why can't they be protagonists?

My take:

Diversity: if the cast can be anyone, let them be anyone as long as it makes sense (in a story set in North Korea, a Native American's presence would warrant an explanation). Why does it have to be 6 straight white men? If there's a reason, like being friends who met at an occasion that is overwhelmingly attended by straight white men, sure, let them be 6 straight white men. But if they're just friends from an unspecific school, or colleagues from a job represented by no demographic in particular? I'd at least include a gay and/or BIPOC man, because diverse people do meet naturally unless they grow up in very exclusive environments. A woman perhaps less, because it is simply a normal thing that guys like to go on trips "with the guys". And if that woman is the classic definition of hot and whose hotness is almost a personality trait, then it's not diverse, but objectifying. I'd rather women be left out altogether if we're only welcome if we please the so-called male gaze.

And then, there's also this:

Token diversity - what Netflix is doing and did ultra-on-the-nose in Sense8. A cast of people whose only thing in common is hotness and able-bodied youth, humping each other. Plot? Phony wokeness excused the lack of any plots. Phony because the more diverse characters were flaming stereotypes. But not one fat person or otherwise "not commonly perceived as attractive" protagonist in Netflix roles that aren't written around their physical "flaws". In that case, just give me American Pie or Road Trip, because at least those are honest in not even trying.
 

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
23,128
Reaction score
10,900
Location
Where faults collide
Website
doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
But not one fat person or otherwise "not commonly perceived as attractive" protagonist in Netflix roles that aren't written around their physical "flaws". In that case, just give me American Pie or Road Trip, because at least those are honest in not even trying.

Body type is a diversity element almost no one talks about. In the contemporary US, forty percent of US adults are obese, and another thirty percent is overweight (rounded numbers). So about 70 percent of US adults are either overweight or obese nowadays, and a high percent of kids and teens are too. Yes, being obese in particular has health risks, so our doctors tut tut and refuse to treat our arthritis, asthma and other conditions because "they would probably go away if we just lost weight." And everyone who isn't fat likes to moralistically shake their fingers at the alleged sloth and gluttony behind fatness (while ignoring the environment in which we live and its interface with the wiring most people have to crave sweet, calorically dense foods and to eat a bit more than they need to, "just in case" there is nothing to eat later). Realistically, you'd expect to see far more heavy people in any contemporary novel, TV show, or movie than we do.

It's ironic that the more people in the US who are fat, the more fat phobic and condemning of heaviness mainstream society becomes. It's probably because poorer people have higher rates of obesity than wealthier people nowadays, but even among the well off, being heavy is pretty common.

Now there would be many fewer obese people in a pre-industrialized culture, I am guessing, and carrying extra weight was probably more common among rich folks that among those who had to perform physical labor for a living and didn't always have enough to eat. Still, larger people have always existed, and views about fatness were more mixed and ambiguous once upon a time (it could be seen as a sign of prosperity and beautiful in women, but unmanly in men, unless they were rulers).

I had to examine my own biases in my writing a while back when I realized I was only portraying unsympathetic characters as heavy. And I am nowhere near as slim as I used to be myself, so it's weird how the self loathing thing kicks in. Of course in real life we all know both nice and not-so-nice people who are heavy and nice and not-so-nice people who are thin too.
 

neandermagnon

Nolite timere, consilium callidum habeo!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Messages
7,324
Reaction score
9,554
Location
Dorset, UK
As for the genetic diversity of pre-modern Europe, more and more evidence is mounting that humans are inveterate wanderers, and people have been migrating into Europe from Africa and the Middle East since ancient times. Ancient Rome was a huge crossroads, but different groups entered Europe long before. A few years back, I read a paper that blue eyes only evolved about 10k (or less) years ago, in the Baltic region near modern Estonia, but more recent research suggests that some of the folks coming into Europe from Africa brought blue eyes with them about 40k years ago. So I don't know if the earlier papers about the genetic origins of blue eyes in Europe were simply incorrect, or whether the blue-eyed alleles from Africa died out, but the mutation arose independently in the Baltic region later on and stuck around that time.

I would say that the first paper referred to is looking at the origin of a particular allele, while the other is looking at a different allele or set of alleles. In other words that the trait occurred twice. It's not unusual for things like this to occur multiple times in different populations. I've seen dogs with blue eyes. Mutations happen frequently. Natural selection and genetic drift determines if the characteristics remain in populations or not.

Genetic studies of Neandertals have shown that some northern European Neandertals had ginger hair. (And pale skin and freckles too.) The allele for ginger hair in Neandertals hasn't been found in modern people. The alleles for ginger hair in modern populations are different and not descended from Neandertal alleles.

I've heard the same thing said about white skin, i.e. that the modern allele(s) for pale skin in Europeans only evolved a few thousand years ago. People tend to assume this means that white skin never ever existed ever before such times, but it's not true. Some Neandertals had white skin, and they went extinct before the gene for white skin in modern Europeans arose. It's possible there were other white skinned people in between. Any population that stays in cold, northerly, cloudy parts will probably evolve white skin sooner or later, the advantage being the ability to make vitamin D with your skin at lower intensities of UV. In seasons where food is scarce, this can prevent rickets. Rickets in childhood can deform the pelvis making childbirth dangerous.

I'm pretty certain that there would've been blue-eyed Neandertals, at least among those with pale skin and hair. I even have a blue eyed Neandertal in my story set 40,000 years ago. Where you have selection pressure in favour of pale skin and ginger hair, you're going to get more alleles for blue, grey and green eyes sticking around in the population. In hotter climates, all these characteristics would be selected out due to higher risk of sunburn, skin cancer, heat stroke (which you can die of as a direct result of severe sunburn, so that's some quite hefty selection pressure) and (for eye colour) cataracts and eye damage from UV light. Also, when it comes to eye colour, you don't get alleles coding for particular colours, you have alleles coding for intensity of pigmentation. The pigment is brown so lots of it = brown eyes. Low pigmentation causes eyes to look grey, blue or green due to Rayleigh scattering. If you've got genes in the population for low pigmentation, you're going to get eyes of various shades of blue, grey, green, etc. So given all that, in spite of never having read any study that's confirmed blue eyes in Neandertals, I have my blue eyed Neandertal character.

Genetic studies in Neandertals in more southerly regions showed they had dark skin. Basically, similar to what we have today. Which is exactly what you'd predict based on UV levels. Modern humans showing this same pattern is convergent evolution.
 

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Messages
29,138
Reaction score
8,563
Location
Toronto
Website
ktcraig.com
Ugh. I originally thought the OP was going for comedy...albeit bad comedy. But, I sit corrected.

Go write your story, OP. Although I'm a queer nonbinary reader/writer, I sometimes read about white male cis characters...as far fetched as they tend to be---You know, in that hero-in-their-own-mind always-the-victim sort of way.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.