Who Else Is Watching The Debate?

Roxxsmom

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Frank Luntz on Amanpour tonight in a discussion about the debate: "I'm not a Republican anymore."

Luntz is responsible for people using Democrat as an adjective instead of a noun. The proper form for an adjective is Democratic.


It concerns me he still thinks the election is too close to call. If rural voters come out in big numbers combined with the Hispanic vote Trump could still win. I can't for the life of me understand why Hispanics would vote for Trump.

I don't either, though the large majority of Latinx voters (around 70%) do not favor Trump. The only answer I've got is that some older Latino men in particular are socially very conservative and patriarchal, and maybe some don't like the way their kids and womenfolk are changing? Or there may be a divide between older Latinx whose families have been here longer feeling like more recent immigrants are squeezing them out? The whole GOP schtick is that resources are oh so limited these days, everything is shrinking, that's just how it is because of those evil Democrats, so we need to fight among ourselves to increase our share of the pie.

Also, there was an increase in jobs under Trump. Now they were crappy jobs for the most part, and wages didn't grow. But given that some subgroups of Latinx people have historically gotten the crappiest jobs with stagnant wages anyway, maybe it's about expectations.

However, the Latinx has been hit very hard by Covid, both in therms of mortality and in terms of job losses. Whether Latinx voters on the fence are more likely break for Biden out of anger over Trump's indifference to the losses within their communities or whether they break for Trump because they think opening up the economy again will help them financially remains to be seen.

It's hard to say without a better breakdown of which Hispanic and Latinx demographics are most likely to support Trump (as in which states are they in, what age and gender, which occupations, which national origins, how recently their families immigrated here).

I hope Biden listens to what Luntz has to say about his focus group's response: people want to know more about Biden's health care plan.

I hope he does too, though to be fair, he didn't get a chance to say anything about any of his proposed programs on Tuesday night. He needs to get out there in one form or another to reach more people, whether it be virtual town halls or whatever. Ads can't really talk about things in depth, and most voters don't want to read anything about a candidate's policy proposals.

It's common for candidates to interrupt one another in debates. Moderators often take them to task for it, and I've often wanted to shout, "Shut up, you're going to get your turn in two minutes!"

But as with everything Trump does, it was at a whole new level. He didn't just jump in and say, "That's not true," or even, "That's a lie because." He just talked constantly, vitriolically, and completely over everything Biden said. His whole purpose was to shut Biden down, to rattle him, to make him stutter, and to not let him say anything. The best moments were when Biden looked at the camera and said over the Trump Tirade, "This is about you, about your families" etc.

It's frustrating how many cartoonists and memes are making it look like both candidates are equally to blame here, but I think most Americans, at least the ones not already in Trump's camp, know who is to blame for the direction this debate took. Biden could have handled it better, perhaps, but he was the one who showed up in good faith, prepared for a normal debate. The sad fact is, the person who doesn't care about rules or norms or decency is the one with the power to ruin things for everyone else. The GOP has been down this path for years, and one of their own has finally taken the approach to its logical extreme. That's what the past 3 3/4 years have been and what the next 4 years (and beyond) will be if Trump gets re-elected or steals the election.
 

frimble3

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Amen to that. Biden was trying to play by the rules, the usual debate stuff: you get to talk, they get to talk. Possibly figuring that Trump's people would be all over him for every little infraction. Possibly because he is a decent human being.
What could he have done, short of punching Trump?
Trump was going to steamroller over anything less.
Biden went for rules, classy behaviour and dignity. Every weakness of Trump's. It would be a shame if Americans can't tell the difference.
 

Chris P

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Amen to that. Biden was trying to play by the rules, the usual debate stuff: you get to talk, they get to talk. Possibly figuring that Trump's people would be all over him for every little infraction. Possibly because he is a decent human being.
What could he have done, short of punching Trump?
Trump was going to steamroller over anything less.
Biden went for rules, classy behaviour and dignity. Every weakness of Trump's. It would be a shame if Americans can't tell the difference.

We can, and we do, the problem is Trump's approach is what his supporters want. It's what got him elected in 2016, and it's what they still want now. Biden, to them, represents an old-guard establishment politician who does nothing but play political games, waste time, and swampify the system for his own shits and giggles. Trump has no incentive to abandon a tactic that throws his opponents off-guard and makes them look weak and unprepared.

Biden has a tough job to roll with the disruptions and find a way to seize the narrative without sinking to Trump's level. I'm sure he's been coached based on Trump's performance (and I use that term deliberately) in the 2016 debates and his actions since. Trump has the easy job, that all he has to do is say something, no matter how random, Biden can't respond to and Trump looks wise and that he's made his point without having to have any substance to it.
 

mccardey

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Trump is going to win this election. I just know it. And I'm the kid who said he was going to get the nom and win in 2016.

I hope I'm wrong.
 

be frank

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Oh, I'm pretty much expecting the same as 2016 (with a smattering of 2000 thrown in for good measure). He'll get thumped in the popular vote, but win through the electoral college and/or court shenanigans.
 

Alpha Echo

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Trump is going to win this election. I just know it. And I'm the kid who said he was going to get the nom and win in 2016.

I hope I'm wrong.

Same.

My husband was so sure in 2016 that he would wake up the next day to the first woman President. I was not so convinced, and I watched until I fell asleep in tears. My husband went straight to denial for awhile, and I went to depression.

Once again, he's optimistic. He thinks it looks so good for Biden. Bad for Trump. But he doesn't lose himself down the rabbit holes of the internet where conservative Trump cult followers praise his name no matter what he says or does. I, for some reason, do feel the need to torture myself and try to figure these people out. So I know they're there, and they are united as much against us (Democrats, Leftists, Socialists, Commies, Baby-Killers, take your pick) as they are united for Trump.
 

mccardey

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I don't, you do. I don't, you do.

God this is depressing.
 

lizmonster

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Trump is going to win this election. I just know it. And I'm the kid who said he was going to get the nom and win in 2016.

I hope I'm wrong.

If he does, it'll be fraudulently.

Not that that'll make a difference.

Wonder how long it'll take for folks fleeing the US to be legit classified as refugees?
 

mccardey

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Can someone explain to me why socialised medicine is evil?
 

mccardey

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Whoa - Biden is on fire atm. Good man!
 

lizmonster

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Can someone explain to me why socialised medicine is evil?

Because it removes the incentive for people to become doctors, and it removes the incentive for people to work, and it takes away something a job can offer people so they attract a "competitive" staff. And it makes people lazy, and poverty is not at all to do with economic issues and entirely to do with being an Undeserving Person.

I think I've covered all the arguments. Horrifying, aren't they? And yet people make them with a straight face.

ETA: I forgot one. "Why should my hard-earned money be going to something that benefits other people?"
 
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MaeZe

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I've been trying for an hour, muting Trump half of the time. I wish Biden did more of the: this is what I'll do and less of the he did X.

But Trump has pretty much made that difficult with all the false accusations flying.

I now have it muted altogether. There's no point. None. Zip.

I don't believe for a minute however that Trump is going to be reelected. Trump is in serious trouble and he has to win every state that is close, too many to pull off shenanigans, and Biden only has to keep the states he has a small or greater lead in.

This analysis from the Financial Times has been steady for more than a month, updated a couple times a day. Mostly what changes are the margins in the bar graph below the totals. Ohio and Georgia have flipped to one side or the other and back.

538's forecast has been steady, again with a little cluster of almost tied states in the middle, with Ohio and Georgia flipping back and forth because they are essentially tied. Trump has to win all of these close states while Biden only needs the states he's a tad further ahead in.

Biden has gotten some very unusual endorsements like The Atlantic, the McCain family, The Lincoln Project, and many more. This is not 2016. I am confident, always a bit nervous of course, but that's because the stakes are so high over here.

It's very disappointing that some of these states are so close. What is wrong with people they've so lost touch with reality? Trump is repeating the same lies he spewed in 2016, with the added BS that he's accomplished things and most recently this whole fabricated Hunter Biden email thing.

Someone in another forum thought it would be great if Biden had a little sign he held up to the camera when Trump speaks that said, "He's lying". :tongue

This debate is less than useless. And I can't even drink because I have to give flu shots in an hour to NorCom (911 dispatch). They have night people who need the vaccine and I try to go when people are at work instead of making them come in on their own time.

Side note: Our whole 911 system for the state went down a couple hours ago. I'm not sure if it's fixed yet. I do hope it won't turn out to be a cyber attack. It will make for an interesting evening.

Back to the debate which just ended with the moderator claiming it had been a "fantastic debate". Now the PBS moderator is claiming the debate was substantive. No it wasn't. Supposedly "both candidates landed blows" like it mattered.

And disgustingly the moderators are giving credence to the fabricated Giuliani email story. They did at least discredit the money Biden was supposedly paid by China.

I have to get ready for work.

Sigh.
 
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MaeZe

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Can someone explain to me why socialised medicine is evil?

Because we have several billion dollar industries that have effectively campaigned we'd not have any innovation if they couldn't be billion dollar industries. And they claim wait times are too long with socialized medicine. Neither are true, of course, but it's an uphill battle fighting this big money.
 

JohnLine

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Trump won the first 10 minutes (with lies), Biden won the rest. I just hope people watched the whole thing.

I think Biden did a good job of not getting roped into a mudslinging contest. He had to give up a few points to do it (It would have been easy to bring up the Trump children), but this exposed Trump's madness when he refused to debate on policy.
 

Chris P

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Can someone explain to me why socialised medicine is evil?

Because all of the money made by the people along the chain in a pure market system can be used to do good things (is one argument). The total amount of wealth created increases the more hands the money passes through. Set up a system where money flows along a complicated chain of insurance companies, each of which seeks to maximize returns, and more people make more money. So it's all about the money. Naturally.

I thought Trump did better the longer it went, while Biden started strong and stayed strong through most of it, getting tired a bit toward the end. That's one of Trump's strengths: he can adapt to a new set of rules then put his own brand of crazy on it, once he figures it out.

I did want to hear more about the tiny windows, though.
 

Introversion

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Can someone explain to me why socialised medicine is evil?

Because we (collectively) have no idea what it is, and we (collectively) fear the unknown.

Also, because a lot of money has been spent over decades telling us that it is evil.
 

Brightdreamer

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If he does, it'll be fraudulently.

Not that that'll make a difference.

Wonder how long it'll take for folks fleeing the US to be legit classified as refugees?

Yep. My prediction is a close race that the WH occupant refuses to legitimize. Even if it's a landslide, all he has to do is say "nuh-huh" and cry fraud (very easy, since the TeaOP has deliberately and obviously, while laughing maniacally, refused to lift the littlest of little fingers to enforce election security, while the right has spouted largely-unfounded claims of fraud to embed the seed in public consciousness), then punt it to his hand-picked SCOTUS. The TeaOP's already forged the crown...

About the only way I see them losing power is if people finally get off their rears and out in the streets in a mass public showing, on election night and forward. Which probably won't happen.

As for fleeing... that is not an option for some of us. I have family in not-good health. I have no exportable job skills. I'm not exactly flush with cash. And the closest option, Canada, has some disturbing tremors in its system that might end up leading them off the same cliff America seems to have plunged from. Even disregarding the COVID restrictions, there is literally nowhere I can go.
 

Roxxsmom

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Because it removes the incentive for people to become doctors, and it removes the incentive for people to work, and it takes away something a job can offer people so they attract a "competitive" staff. And it makes people lazy, and poverty is not at all to do with economic issues and entirely to do with being an Undeserving Person.

I think I've covered all the arguments. Horrifying, aren't they? And yet people make them with a straight face.

ETA: I forgot one. "Why should my hard-earned money be going to something that benefits other people?"

You also forgot the specter of long waits for elective procedures. Because "everyone knows" that wealthier Canadians come down here in hordes for surgeries they have to wait longer for in Canada. While it is true that Canadians do have to wait longer, on average, for elective procedures than insured Americans do, claims about the overall numbers of disgruntled Canadians seeking surgery in the US is probably overstated.

The irony is increasing numbers US citizens go to other countries for treatments and surgeries they can't afford here.

Oh, and the DEATH PANELS, where the evil government decides which drugs and treatments are covered for whom. Right now, of course, insurance companies are the ones with the death panels.

Americans are just fine with being screwed over by private interests, but they are terrified of the government enforcing rules. I can't quite get my head around the reasoning, but I think it stems from the idea that consumers have choices, so they can go to a different company (or get a different job with a different insurance plan) if they don't like their own health plan. But of course most people don't have that level of choice about the plans they can afford out of pocket or what their employer provides them with or where they can work.
 

mccardey

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DO the employers provide the health care, or is it just arranged through them and paid for by the government? Or does the employee take it as part of their salary/wage, and so they pay for it (in which case - can't they choose their own?)

Click here for a derail
 
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