If Trump refuses to concede, refuses to leave, then what?

Introversion

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https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/what-if-trump-refuses-concede/616424/

The Atlantic said:
...

A lot of people, including Joe Biden, the Democratic Party nominee, have mis*conceived the nature of the threat. They frame it as a concern, unthinkable for presidents past, that Trump might refuse to vacate the Oval Office if he loses. They generally conclude, as Biden has, that in that event the proper authorities “will escort him from the White House with great dispatch.”

The worst case, however, is not that Trump rejects the election outcome. The worst case is that he uses his power to prevent a decisive outcome against him. If Trump sheds all restraint, and if his Republican allies play the parts he assigns them, he could obstruct the emergence of a legally unambiguous victory for Biden in the Electoral College and then in Congress. He could prevent the formation of consensus about whether there is any outcome at all. He could seize on that un*certainty to hold on to power.

Trump’s state and national legal teams are already laying the groundwork for postelection maneuvers that would circumvent the results of the vote count in battleground states. Ambiguities in the Constitution and logic bombs in the Electoral Count Act make it possible to extend the dispute all the way to Inauguration Day, which would bring the nation to a precipice. The Twentieth Amendment is crystal clear that the president’s term in office “shall end” at noon on January 20, but two men could show up to be sworn in. One of them would arrive with all the tools and power of the presidency already in hand.

“We are not prepared for this at all,” Julian Zelizer, a Prince*ton professor of history and public affairs, told me. “We talk about it, some worry about it, and we imagine what it would be. But few people have actual answers to what happens if the machinery of democracy is used to prevent a legitimate resolution to the election.”

Nineteen summers ago, when counterterrorism analysts warned of a coming attack by al‑Qaeda, they could only guess at a date. This year, if election analysts are right, we know when the trouble is likely to come. Call it the Interregnum: the interval from Election Day to the next president’s swearing-in. It is a temporal no-man’s-land between the presidency of Donald Trump and an uncertain successor—a second term for Trump or a first for Biden. The transfer of power we usually take for granted has several intermediate steps, and they are fragile.

The Interregnum comprises 79 days, carefully bounded by law. Among them are “the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December,” this year December 14, when the electors meet in all 50 states and the District of Columbia to cast their ballots for president; “the 3d day of January,” when the newly elected Congress is seated; and “the sixth day of January,” when the House and Senate meet jointly for a formal count of the electoral vote. In most modern elections these have been pro forma milestones, irrelevant to the outcome. This year, they may not be.

“Our Constitution does not secure the peaceful transition of power, but rather presupposes it,” the legal scholar Lawrence Douglas wrote in a recent book titled simply Will He Go? The Interregnum we are about to enter will be accompanied by what Douglas, who teaches at Amherst, calls a “perfect storm” of adverse conditions. We cannot turn away from that storm. On November 3 we sail toward its center mass. If we emerge without trauma, it will not be an unbreakable ship that has saved us.

Let us not hedge about one thing. Donald Trump may win or lose, but he will never concede. Not under any circumstance. Not during the Interregnum and not afterward. If compelled in the end to vacate his office, Trump will insist from exile, as long as he draws breath, that the contest was rigged.

...
 

frimble3

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So, maybe the world gets lucky: Trump gets himself so wound up screaming the he's been robbed that he has a stroke and/or heart attack during the Interregnum. So sad, too bad, and the world moves on without him.
 

Roxxsmom

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If it ends up being a matter for the courts to decide, then there is a chance the Courts will hand it to him. Trump knows this, and this is why he (and his allies in the Senate) want to ram a court pick in before the election.

Trump has alternatively said that the counts could go on for months or years and that he expects the courts to declare a winner on election night.

I'm pretty sure Roberts wouldn't rule to cut off the counting of mail in ballots that came in before their state's deadlines, but I don't know about the other 5 conservative justices (assuming Trump's new pick gets confirmed), three of whom will be people Trump picked with the expectation of personal loyalty, and two others who have almost never ruled against conservative interests in anything. I'm hoping there are at least two Republican-appointed members of the High Court who still wish to uphold the will of the people and state election laws, even if doing so hurts the GOP. There is a decent chance one might, because surely all five can't be completely irredeemable human beings. If not we may well see civil disorder on a scale unprecedented in modern history, followed by murder at the hands of police (who are very loyal to Trump and know he will back them), and even by the military, who are sworn to uphold the Constitution (which is whatever the Supreme Court says it is).

Now if the court does rule against Trump and he still refuses to vacate, then the military probably wouldn't side with him and enact a coup for the same reason. He's not super popular with the military top brass at the moment anyway, and they do seem to take their commitment to the Constitution seriously, regardless of personal politics. I suspect a large number of police departments in the US would swear fealty to him though and gleefully use lethal force on protesters if Trump makes his move. They adore him and give every indication of wanting to be part of a police state. Not saying all police departments, let alone individual officers, would want this, but they've shown how incapable they are of standing up to their fellow officers when they are clearly in the wrong. It could still be ugly.

The author of the article is correct in that our country presupposes peaceful transitions of power. We don't really have good mechanisms in place to prevent unscrupulous power grabs by losing POTUS and his allies within the other two branches of government, not to mention the police and military.

Now it's possible Trump is too much of a coward to do this. Cohen has hypothesized he might make a sly move like resigning during the lame duck period and getting Pence to issue a blanket pardon for any crimes with which Trump might later be charged. Sadly, that might be the best outcome to hope for.
 
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Brightdreamer

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First off: I think there's very little chance they don't get their SCOTUS seat ramrodded through ASAP.

Second: I'm cynical enough to expect they're counting on that. Simply refusing to ensure election security gives them a perfect excuse to cry "rigged" for anything they don't like. Then they get it kicked into the courts (which they've packed, because a good power grabber always plans ahead), and if it kicks all the way up to the SCOTUS... let's just say I wouldn't hold my breath on the conservatives there biting the hand that feeds them.

Third: Even if the WH occupant keels over tomorrow, that leaves us with Pence, who is arguably more dangerous for being a zealot. The WH occupant is mostly an egotistical sociopath who doesn't care one spit for anyone not himself and who craves ultimate power, but a zealot would be much worse. (The fact that one of the top contenders for the vacant SCOTUS seat is also a known zealot should worry anyone who doesn't want to live under a theocracy defined by the most extreme interpretation of Christianity...)
 

Roxxsmom

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Trump is definitely hedging his bets here, refusing to promise that he will accept election results if he loses.

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/23/9162...t-election-results-to-end-up-at-supreme-court


First off: I think there's very little chance they don't get their SCOTUS seat ramrodded through ASAP.

Second: I'm cynical enough to expect they're counting on that. Simply refusing to ensure election security gives them a perfect excuse to cry "rigged" for anything they don't like. Then they get it kicked into the courts (which they've packed, because a good power grabber always plans ahead), and if it kicks all the way up to the SCOTUS... let's just say I wouldn't hold my breath on the conservatives there biting the hand that feeds them.

Third: Even if the WH occupant keels over tomorrow, that leaves us with Pence, who is arguably more dangerous for being a zealot. The WH occupant is mostly an egotistical sociopath who doesn't care one spit for anyone not himself and who craves ultimate power, but a zealot would be much worse. (The fact that one of the top contenders for the vacant SCOTUS seat is also a known zealot should worry anyone who doesn't want to live under a theocracy defined by the most extreme interpretation of Christianity...)

This is all very scary.

The hope I have, and it may well be naive given how toxic right-wing ideology and politics have become, is that at least 2/6 Republican-appointed justices will not be blind party loyalists because they serve for life and therefore don't have to worry about angering their voting base.

BUT if at least 5/6 have been poisoned by zealotry and can no longer be counted on to follow at least some interpretation of the Constitution and previous precedent, we would be screwed. Trump is counting on his three appointees, at least, coming though for him. To be fair to Gorsuch, he has disappointed Trump on one occasion (by joining Roberts in a 6-3 ruling that LGBTQ people are protected from workplace discrimination by the Civil Rights Act), so maybe he still has a judicial conscience in there somewhere.

Not holding out any hope that he would vote to uphold Roe, though, or won't generally side with right-wing interpretations of laws and issues.
 

Introversion

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More evidence that Trump plans to steal this election, from his own words hole:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/23/donald-trump-press-conference-us-elections-breonna-taylor

The Guardian said:
...

Trump careered from touting miracle vaccines to building supreme court suspense, from insulting a female member of the British royal family to abruptly departing for a mysterious “emergency” phone call. But first, there was the small matter of kneecapping American democracy.

Perhaps it was not chance that the president, ever eager to generate media outrage, gave the first question to Brian Karem, who describes himself on Twitter as a “Loud Mouth” senior White House reporter at Playboy. “Will you commit to make sure there’s a peaceful transferral of power after the election?” Karem asked.

All of his 43 predecessors would have said yes, presumably. But Trump replied: “We’re going to have to see what happens, you know that. I’ve been complaining very strongly about the ballots, and the ballots are a disaster.”

Karem shot back: “I understand that, but people are rioting. Do you commit to make sure that there’s a peaceful transferral of power?”

Still Trump refused to commit. “Get rid of the ballots and you’ll have a very peaceful — there won’t be a transfer, frankly. There will be a continuation. The ballots are out of control. You know it. And you know who knows it better than anybody else? The Democrats know it better than anybody else.”

Later, Karem remarked on Twitter: “This is the most frightening answer I have ever received to any question I have ever asked. I’ve interviewed convicted killers with more empathy. @realDonaldTrump is advocating Civil War.”

...

I’m not really sure what I’m prepared to do if he goes down this route of blatently stealing the election, but “sit quietly and take it” isn’t it. It’ll be time to get super-loud in the streets, at minimum. This won’t end well for our democracy, if we don’t.
 

Introversion

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10 Things You Need to Know to Stop a Coup

...

6. Convince people not to freeze or just go along.

Imagine that at your job a corrupt boss gets fired and a new one is brought in. Instead of leaving, your old boss says, “I’m still in charge. Do what I say.” A bunch of your co-workers say, “We only take orders from the old boss.” At that point, doubt arises.

That doubt is how coups succeed. Enough people freeze. Even when only a few people go along with the coup and act as though that’s normal, people may reluctantly accept it as inevitable.

In all the research on preventing coups, there’s one common theme: people stop doing what the coup plotters tell them to do.

In Germany, from military commanders to secretaries, they refused to obey the orders of the coup. In Mali they called a nationwide strike. In Sudan protestors shut down government-supported radio stations and occupied airport runways. In Venezuela all shops were closed.

Coups are not a time to just watch and wait until “someone else” figures it out. No matter who you are you can be part of choosing democracy.

7. Commit to actions that represent rule of law, stability, and nonviolence.

Stopping a coup is dependent on the size of mobilizations and winning over the center. It is really a fight for legitimacy. Which voice is legitimate? Some people will have already made up their minds. The aim then is convincing those who are uncertain — which may be a more surprising number than you expect.

But to swing to our side, that uncertain center has to be convinced that “we” represent stability and “the coup plotters” represent hostility to the democratic norms of elections and voting.

We prevent that possibility when we dehumanize potential defectors, make sweeping statements like, “the police won’t help”, never encourage people to join our side, and create chaotic scenes on the street.

Historically, whichever side resorts to violence the most tends to lose. In a moment of uncertainty, people pick the side that promises maximum stability, respects democratic norms, and appears to be the safer bet. It’s a contest of who can be the most legitimate.

Mass resistance to coups wins by using walk-outs and strikes, refusing orders, and shutting down civil society until the rightful democratically elected leader is installed. For mass movements to succeed against coups, they should refuse to do violence to the other side.

...
 

CWatts

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More evidence that Trump plans to steal this election, from his own words hole:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/23/donald-trump-press-conference-us-elections-breonna-taylor



I’m not really sure what I’m prepared to do if he goes down this route of blatently stealing the election, but “sit quietly and take it” isn’t it. It’ll be time to get super-loud in the streets, at minimum. This won’t end well for our democracy, if we don’t.

We're six months into a pandemic that has so many of us wondering if we could become one of those 200,000 dead.

It's now estimated that the Chinese government killed 10,000 peaceful protesters at Tianamen Square. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-42465516

I can't be the only one doing the grim math. I am no hero, and when the time comes I'll probably pick raising my son over staring down a tank. But I do not want to live in a dictatorship.
 

lizmonster

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Heather Cox Richardson makes an excellent point this morning: all of this is drowning out all of Biden's campaign.

I am going to do my best to no longer amplify this - not because it isn't terrifying and important. It scares the hell out of me. But because the MSM doesn't need my help there.

Biden's got policy statements up on his web site, among other things. Lots of links that are easy to share.

Remember in 2016, when there were people who said "yeah, I knew *rump was bad, but Clinton never said what she stood for"? I'm going to do my part to make sure nobody can use that excuse this time.

This is all horrifying. But the election's not stolen yet.
 

cbenoi1

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Time for a pop quiz. Which one will reach the finish line first in the US?

a) the pandemic

b) the court battles that will follow the Nov'20 elections.


The Atlantic Daily: A Q&A With Barton Gellman
https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2020/09/2020-election-trump-barton-gellman/616457/

The most significant risk is that Trump will ask Republican allies in battleground states to appoint Trump electors regardless of the outcome. We’re accustomed to choosing electors by popular vote, but the Supreme Court has said a state legislature may take back that power from the people and name any electors it likes.
According to a legal adviser to Trump and three top Republican leaders in Pennsylvania, they are already discussing contingency plans to set aside the voting results—by claiming the vote count is rigged. Republicans control the House and Senate in all six of the most closely contested swing states.

What frightens me is that Trump has the power, with only modest help from GOP elected officials, to throw the outcome into doubt and to keep it unresolved almost indefinitely. And if he throws the decision to Congress, which he can do almost at will, the law is a labyrinth full of dead ends when it comes to how that’s resolved. Experts tell me that the Electoral Count Act is so garbled and full of logic bombs that it can easily lead to deadlock.

Halloween is weeks away. Are you scared yet?

-cb
 

lizmonster

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(Replying to #10)

That's the thing, Biden needs no campaign right now. Trump's campaign is Biden's campaing. Biden has literally just taken snippets of Trump and put his logo over them.

100% disagree.

Biden is doing the right thing by using *rump's snippets. But people want to know what he stands for. And the degree to which the MSM writes about a candidate absolutely makes a difference. You see much in the media about Biden's policies? I sure don't.

He's got, for instance, a policy on education and long-term caregiving. As someone with two parents suffering from dementia, this means a lot to me. And that's just one issue for which he has an actual, written policy proposal. There's more to him than "not an ass." I don't think "not an ass" is enough to bring out the numbers we need to overwhelm the kind of suppression that's already happening.
 

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Mass resistance to coups wins by using walk-outs and strikes, refusing orders, and shutting down civil society until the rightful democratically elected leader is installed. For mass movements to succeed against coups, they should refuse to do violence to the other side.

This is something that's been under-discussed, imo. Instead of simply demonstrating, people need to stop working. Bring the country to a halt. It is much harder for the police to hunt down everyone who is not showing up to work to imprison and kill than it is to mow protesters down in the street.

The challenge lies in getting enough people to do it for it to be effective. The woman's strike was a huge failure in the US, because almost no one did it. The woman's strike for pay equity in Iceland was far more successful (back in the 70s) because most women participated. We've not been super successful at mass strikes in the US, as many Americans are afraid of ending up on the streets or starving if they don't work and are fired (and few US workers are even protected by unions nowadays), and of course many Americans--health care workers, public safety, teachers and so on--worry that their jobs are too important and they will be hurting those who depend on them if they don't show.

It is certainly true that people would be hurt by a mass strike, but if we're looking into the barrel of a coup attempt, how many will we be hurting by hunkering down and trying to carry on as normal?
 

lizmonster

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The challenge lies in getting enough people to do it for it to be effective. The woman's strike was a huge failure in the US, because almost no one did it.

There's a letter somewhere in Ask A Manager about a woman who took a day off work to attend a march (in solidarity with immigrants, I believe). She was fired. Totally legal. She had no recourse.

Of course a strike like that won't work in the US. Too many people are too close to financial insecurity. The wolves will need to literally be at the door.
 

mccardey

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This is something that's been under-discussed, imo. Instead of simply demonstrating, people need to stop working. Bring the country to a halt. It is much harder for the police to hunt down everyone who is not showing up to work to imprison and kill than it is to mow protesters down in the street.

The challenge lies in getting enough people to do it for it to be effective. The woman's strike was a huge failure in the US, because almost no one did it. The woman's strike for pay equity in Iceland was far more successful (back in the 70s) because most women participated. We've not been super successful at mass strikes in the US, as many Americans are afraid of ending up on the streets or starving if they don't work and are fired (and few US workers are even protected by unions nowadays), and of course many Americans--health care workers, public safety, teachers and so on--worry that their jobs are too important and they will be hurting those who depend on them if they don't show.

It is certainly true that people would be hurt by a mass strike, but if we're looking into the barrel of a coup attempt, how many will we be hurting by hunkering down and trying to carry on as normal?

I don't see that working any more, for the reasons Liz said.

I don't know what you can do. But I do think too much time is spent playing to Trump's strategy of All Distraction All The Time.
 

lizmonster

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I don't see that working any more, for the reasons Liz said.

I don't know what you can do. But I do think too much time is spent playing to Trump's strategy of All Distraction All The Time.

Yes. The news bounces from crisis to crisis, and we all end up feeling overwhelmed and discouraged. They won't need to do anything illegal to suppress the vote if we're all too depressed to get up.
 

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There are three groups that do need to go on strike: the Secret Service, the military, and the National Guard. If the bully-boy can't enforce his edicts, he can be deposed.
 

mccardey

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There are three groups that do need to go on strike: the Secret Service, the military, and the National Guard. If the bully-boy can't enforce his edicts, he can be deposed.
+1 to this.
 

RedRajah

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*suddenly shudders at the image of Blackwater taking over the duties of the Secret Service*
 

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From Variety
Aaron Sorkin reveals how he would write election night, 2020: "Trump does what we all assume he will do, which is not concede defeat… For the first time, his Republican enablers march up to the White House and say 'Donald, it’s time to go'"
 
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MaeZe

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Heather Cox Richardson makes an excellent point this morning: all of this is drowning out all of Biden's campaign.

I am going to do my best to no longer amplify this - not because it isn't terrifying and important. It scares the hell out of me. But because the MSM doesn't need my help there.

Biden's got policy statements up on his web site, among other things. Lots of links that are easy to share.

Remember in 2016, when there were people who said "yeah, I knew *rump was bad, but Clinton never said what she stood for"? I'm going to do my part to make sure nobody can use that excuse this time.

This is all horrifying. But the election's not stolen yet.
I bolded Trump's goal there and the news media's falling for it again. He says outrageous things and the media repeats the shit on every channel and website. As long as Trump can feed his attention habit he can ignore the protests, the pandemic, and his lousy campaign performance.

Don't amplify it except to call BS on it. And maybe a few letters to a few editors is worth the time. You can anticipate they will claim this is big/important news the public needs to know. Let them know they are being conned.

And by the way, this is not a hard hitting reporter's question. This is the media falling for it again.
 
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MaeZe

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*suddenly shudders at the image of Blackwater taking over the duties of the Secret Service*

IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!!!!!

First off, there is no more Blackwater and Eric Prince's remnant organization is nothing but a company that can staff a single protest or two. The military is not on Trump's side, he's burned those bridges.

Now suppose there are some border patrol and police departments that would back Trump. Who's gonna be the effing leader? Certainly not Trump or the sycophants he installed to head a few departments. Bill Barr? I don't think so.

Ferguson, our state AG has taken over Barr's job when the Trump cult thought they could do away with the ACA by merely refusing to defend it against Texas' AG. Sorry Trump, you don't have the only legal organization in the country.
 

Roxxsmom

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IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!!!!!

First off, there is no more Blackwater and Eric Prince's remnant organization is nothing but a company that can staff a single protest or two. The military is not on Trump's side, he's burned those bridges.

Trump is not popular with the military top brass, and he's less popular with the rank and file than he was in 2016 as well. Biden is overwhelmingly endorsed by national security experts, many of whom are military.

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/24/9161...-security-experts-endorse-biden-for-president

But the military is sworn to uphold the Constitution. This is the potential fly in the ointment, and why Trump and his lackeys in the Senate are so keen to push a replacement through and get the court to a 6-3 GOP-chosen majority (3 of whom are Trump picks). Because if the SCOTUS ruled to uphold Trump's challenge to election results, then the challenge is Constitutional by definition, and the military is obliged to honor it. The question then is how many could actually bring themselves to join the police in shooting protesters (I have little doubt most police would gleefully do so).

This is an emergent weakness in our system, because the power of Constitutional interpretation resides in one group of people appointed by presidents and approved bySenates who serve for life. Now the court has always been considered less corruptible than the elected offices, because they don't have to worry about pleasing a party base. They are chosen because of their judicial bias and precedents, but once in they can rule however their interpretation of the law and Constitution dictates. The court has traditionally had a moderating effect on some members for this reason. But in recent years, GOP POTUS's and Senators feel more pressure from their constituents to pick ideologues for the court.

Now there's still a decent chance at least two of the Conservative justices would not rule to toss out state election laws or to rule in favor of an administration that claims, without evidence, that mail-in ballots are insecure or fraudulent. Both Roberts and Gorsuch have shown a willingness to break with Conservative agenda, even though it enrages Trump.

But it's not a shoo in. And that's why I'm sweating bullets right now.

Another thing to consider is that the fiscal conservatives probably won't want a stolen election, even if the party stealing it is the one they generally favor. Political unrest and perceived illegitimacy are not good for business or the stock market. What effect they can wield in the short run is not clear to me, though.

I do feel that if Trump refuses to vacate the White House if the election results are clear, or if the court ruling goes against him, he must be arrested and tried for treason (or whatever the appropriate charge would be in this situation). This would be an unprecedented move, and he must be made an example of. Sadly, if the court ruling upholds what is clearly a biased and unsubstantiated claim, then there must be mass peaceful protests and mass strikes demanding all ballots be honored.

Regardless of the outcome, though, a high percentage of Americans would continue to believe Trump is a hero.

I don't know what we can do about that except to roll up our sleeves and actually fix the issues that are causing the middle class to be an endangered species in the US. Because this lies at the heart of this problem. Yes, the US is still racist, sexist, homophobic and it always has been. We need to work on these things too. But the force that brings these elements to from a simmer to a boil is economic insecurity. This is what has allowed the unscrupulous power seekers to get most of the country to like a bunch of starving dogs fighting over scraps of meat.

I wish the media would spend more time covering Biden's platform and the things he wants to do to bring back the middle class and to expand it so it is accessible to all Americans. It is not a zero sum game.
 

Brightdreamer

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Fiscal conservatives appear to be functionally extinct in the halls of power, near as I can determine.

And I don't think we can count on individual integrity if the order from the top brass is "open fire."

Barring mass, Belarus-level showings in the street, I don't see how we stop this plain-sight power grab when it gets that far.
 

Gregg

Life is good
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That's the thing, Biden needs no campaign right now. Trump's campaign is Biden's campaing. Biden has literally just taken snippets of Trump and put his logo over them.

The "I'm not Donald Trump" strategy didn't work for Hillary (or any of Trump's GOP primary opponents) and it won't work for Joe Biden. He has to get out there in the public eye and show he's up to the job. On nine days in September he's cut his campaign day short well before noon - and, no, he hasn't been prepping for the first debate.
While Trump does have high negative's he also has much more enthusiasm behind him the Biden.