Native America Culture - Magic System and MC

TulipMama

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Hello,

I'm writing an urban fantasy story from the first person perspective of a female of Native Canadian (Algonquin)/Indian (North Eastern Region) heritage.

I am literally none of these things. I need to have a sanity check to make sure I'm not being a white cis male idiot about soooo much stuff.

1) The main character's personality and behaviour is something I have firm in my mind. Her ethnicity has fairly little impact on how she functions day to day. In my mind her past trauma (her dad tried to kill her at age 11), her mom being in a coma (aftermath of attempted dad-related homicide) and being foisted onto her uncle (who used her as a political 'hey look how altruistic I am' tool) did most of the shaping. That aside, she's been a cop for ten years, giving her a jaded chip on her shoulder. Ultimately, she's very strong willed, has oodles of trauma she hides behind a stand-offish personality, and is generally a huge @$$ to people she hasn't personally decided to interact with. The only time her Aboriginal roots show is when she's doing magic, which I'll put in my next blurb, and her Indian roots never show. She was raised agnostic by two military parents who only really believed in being strict until they removed each other form the parenting picture.

I can't put into a short blurb how she works and why she works that way in my mind without writing a novel, which I won't subject you to (yet?) but that's the sparks notes.

2) The magic system is where I'm really worried. Without gushing too much, the idea is that 90% of mythological creatures are actually a thing, but they live in the spirit world and have no physical presence. Somebody who does magic makes a deal with one of these creatures to cast spells based on what that creature's identity is tied to. Make a deal with a salamander, you can use fire magic, make a deal with a shoe-maker elf, get crafting magic (mostly shoe related). My MC has a contract with Toho, a Kachina spirit of the Hopi tribe from the Sourthern US. Already I'm feeling a bit like I'm lumping all 'Native Americans' into one hole, but it gets worse. Magic words are a tool to cast spells, but it's not the words themselves, it's what the association between what the word means to the person and their intent. Words with homonyms leach efficiency out of a spell because it splits the caster's focus. I cast lightning using French, I say 'Elcair' which translates to 'flash of lightning' but I also think of the yummy treat, splitting my focus and causing a dip in efficiency on the spell. Therefore, languages with less homonyms and cultural bleed (English is an example of literally the worst language for this) are considered the best options for 'magic' languages. In Canada, the book setting, Cree is made the National, official, language of magic.

TLDR, I have an Algonquin MC who uses Hopi rituals/spirit in the Cree language.

I also have a 3rd generation Greek side character who also uses Cree, because she was trained in Canada and it's the national standard.

3) One of my major concerns is that I'm using Cree wrong. I don't speak Cree and I've been using an online Cree dictionary to ham-fist my way through my MC using magic. My intent is to contact somebody who DOES speak Cree to help me parse the language barrier before I even think about attempting publishing of any flavour.

4) I'm also using other characters, religions and languages in a similar fashion. I have a Chinese necromancer/coroner, a Toaist demon crime-lord, Catholic BBEG, Greco-Roman succubus witness. Just because these are all side characters, is it any less of a cultural minefield? Is there insulation here since they're never my POV?

5) The last thing is how the world has changed. Magic popped up in the 70's, so stuff has changed. There was a country rending civil war in the states, India functionally ate Russia and Africa is a technological powerhouse supplying magic focus objects and rituals. In Canada, relatively little happened on a grand scale, but it became very 'vogue' to be Aboriginal since the culture had more intact, functional rituals to access the newly rediscovered wellspring of magic. The standing Prime Minister is the MC's uncle (also Algonquin) and the Mayor of Toronto is Aboriginal too. Am I belittling the current struggle Aboriginal people face in Canada by flipping the script?

I've honestly been a little afraid to ask these questions, but I need to bite the bullet coming into my last string of edits before Beta readers start shouting at me.

Please help.

Tulip Mama
 

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I'm an American so I don't have as much awareness of the nuance of the term, but isn't "aboriginal" more of an Australian thing? And that for Canada it should be "Indigenous" or "First People"s? I know that "aboriginal Canadian" is the legal term, but here in America the legal term is "American Indian" which, you know, they're not from India, and it's a really outdated term.

Already I'm feeling a bit like I'm lumping all 'Native Americans' into one hole, but it gets worse.

It feels like you already know the answer to this. With how big #OwnVoices is right now, you're going to have a tougher time just in the market. That doesn't mean it's impossible, of course, but it will be tough.

I highly, highly, highly recommend you get some sensitivity readers, especially of different native peoples. Characters not being main characters doesn't make them immune to being problematic; in some ways, it can be worse, because of tokenization. Making a Catholic the Big Bad isn't the end of the world, especially since the Capital T The Church has a real-world history of being terrible, especially to native peoples, but generally punching up is okay, not punching down.
 

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Caveat: I am not very knowledgeable about these things and my opinions are based on watching various stories play out, from the sidelines.

OK.

Actually I think you run into problems right off the bat with the dad trying to kill her at age 11.

Unless this is an ownvoices story, you risk a lot of issues here.
 

frimble3

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Do you know much about the Cree language? What leads you to believe that it's not as structurally interesting as any other language? It sounds like you are assuming it's simpler, less symbolic, and generally 'flatter' than other languages.
Also, this,
Make a deal with a salamander, you can use fire magic, make a deal with a shoe-maker elf, get crafting magic (mostly shoe related)
.
Why, if this is set in North America, and the language of magic is Cree, why are your examples both of standard European magical creatures?

And, why does your Algonquin, North Eastern character have a contract with a Hopi spirit from the South-East?

I'm also using other characters, religions and languages in a similar fashion.
As labels to add a touch of exoticism to your story, while erasing any actual differences in practices and beliefs?
And, what do you believe is the difference between 'Aboriginal' and 'Indian', as in
The only time her Aboriginal roots show is when she's doing magic, which I'll put in my next blurb, and her Indian roots never show.
And she's a First Nations female police officer in an urban area, and you think her heritage won't affect her life? Like, every time she interacts with the public?
 

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Simply put, I do not think you are the best person to write this story.
 

Putputt

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I'm actually okay with people writing outside their lanes (within limits...) but in this case I think you're not the best person for the story. There are several reasons for this:
-There has been such a long history of Native peoples being silenced that I think they're one of the communities that should be left to Own Voices stories.
-You're talking about taking specific things from different tribes and mixing them together and yeah, it does sound like it would end up lumping all these different tribes into a single homogenous thing.
-The MC's background is...problematic.
-The use of magic and language is a definite minefield. I'm of Chinese descent and I have books coming out which tackle magic and Chinese words and it is tricky as shit to get right even when I *DO* speak the language. The thought of someone who doesn't speak the language trying to tackle this makes my head hurt, lol.

There are a ton of other issues here, but you get the gist!
 

TulipMama

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I apologize for the unspecified method of my quoting below, the site isnā€™t agreeing with me so Iā€™m putting the quote in by hand.

I'm an American so I don't have as much awareness of the nuance of the term, but isn't "aboriginal" more of an Australian thing? And that for Canada it should be "Indigenous" or "First People"s? I know that "aboriginal Canadian" is the legal term, but here in America the legal term is "American Indian" which, you know, they're not from India, and it's a really outdated term.

Aboriginal is the term the Canadian government officially landed on in ā€™82 as a blanket term for First Nations groups, Inuit and Metis. It wasnā€™t universally accepted, and now adays Indigenous is the more acceptable noun, which also brings with it some legal backing from the UN under the Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

It feels like you already know the answer to this. With how big #OwnVoices is right now, you're going to have a tougher time just in the market. That doesn't mean it's impossible, of course, but it will be tough.

I highly, highly, highly recommend you get some sensitivity readers, especially of different native peoples. Characters not being main characters doesn't make them immune to being problematic; in some ways, it can be worse, because of tokenization. Making a Catholic the Big Bad isn't the end of the world, especially since the Capital T The Church has a real-world history of being terrible, especially to native peoples, but generally punching up is okay, not punching down.

Thatā€™s definitely something Iā€™ll look for in my beta readers, assuming I ever let this thing come to light.

Caveat: I am not very knowledgeable about these things and my opinions are based on watching various stories play out, from the sidelines.

OK.

Actually I think you run into problems right off the bat with the dad trying to kill her at age 11.

Unless this is an ownvoices story, you risk a lot of issues here.

Itā€™s a long plot thing, barely comes up in book one with the intent that what happened doesnā€™t REALLY come up until book 3, and the WHY doesnā€™t come up until even further along. TLDR is the dad tried going toe to toe with the over-arching plotā€™s BBEG, lost, and driven insane by magic. Thereā€™s a catharsis loosely planned out, but at the moment in the plot, hunting him down is MCā€™s main drive.

Do you know much about the Cree language? What leads you to believe that it's not as structurally interesting as any other language? It sounds like you are assuming it's simpler, less symbolic, and generally 'flatter' than other languages.

I really donā€™t. Language is not my strong suite, I like math way more than words, but I recognize that language is a massive part of culture. No, I donā€™t know much about Cree, as I stated earlier, but that doesnā€™t mean I think less of it. Iā€™ve been trying to find a Fluent Cree language coach to talk to when Iā€™m in a better position to go through it. Right now I have copy and pasted what I see as ā€˜place holdersā€™ for when a spell is being cast.

Also, this, .
Make a deal with a salamander, you can use fire magic, make a deal with a shoe-maker elf, get crafting magic (mostly shoe related)

Why, if this is set in North America, and the language of magic is Cree, why are your examples both of standard European magical creatures?

Because Iā€™m trying to explain a mechanic and thought easily recognizable mythological creatures would get my point across. I could have said ā€˜make a deal with a Pahlik, get dream magicā€™ but the little butterfly spirits havenā€™t had as much screen time over the years.

And, why does your Algonquin, North Eastern character have a contract with a Hopi spirit from the South-East?

Plot-wise, because her dad picked him out as a good, middle of the road spirit (power wise) with a fairly mild temperament for his, at the time, 10 year old girl. Otherwise I was trying to do the same thing as Iā€™m trying to do with a lot of the cultures Iā€™m drawing on. I want to bring them out to be recognized in more mainstream culture. Iā€™m not going to heavy into that in the first book, Toho is probably the most obscure spirit in the book. The ultimate goal is to spark interest in any fanbase I manage to gather (again, if the book even sees light or is read ever) so that research can be done. I didnā€™t know too much about the Sidhe, personally, until I looked further into it after reading Rosemary and Rue. I want that for others.

I'm also using other characters, religions and languages in a similar fashion.
As labels to add a touch of exoticism to your story, while erasing any actual differences in practices and beliefs?

Iā€™m not pulling in other cultures as a spice, my intent is to draw attention to them. Itā€™s not something I hand-wave in the story, the context doesnā€™t translate well in a short blurb. My understanding of the ritual, religion and language of these different cultures isnā€™t complete, but Iā€™m hoping Iā€™ve learned (and continue to learn) enough that they arenā€™t walking caricatures.

And, what do you believe is the difference between 'Aboriginal' and 'Indian', as in

The only time her Aboriginal roots show is when she's doing magic, which I'll put in my next blurb, and her Indian roots never show.

From my understanding theyā€™re substantially different cultures. The North Eastern Region of India is largely Hindu, and fairly conservative while the Algonquin (along with many other tribes) are still fighting for basic water rights and trying to piece together a history shattered by residential schools.

As far as Iā€™m concerned, the fact that neither of these cultures really show in her personality is a failing of mine. I can try to excuse it by saying her folks were both military, substituting army culture for ethnic culture, but thatā€™s not even a bad excuse, itā€™s just dumb. I donā€™t have a good answer for that right now, which is one of the reasons Iā€™m here looking for help.

And she's a First Nations female police officer in an urban area, and you think her heritage won't affect her life? Like, every time she interacts with the public?

Solid point, Iā€™ll have to reflect on that more. How Indigenous people are treated in my book world is different to present day, but itā€™d still have an effect.

Now, all that being said, Iā€™m sorry if I offended you Frimble3. I may be reading too much into this, but a lot of what you wrote sounded veryā€¦ heated. Iā€™m not here to appropriate culture, make light of struggles and erase heritages. I genuinely just want to write a good story that gets people looking up interesting and often overlooked cultures. If you want to discuss it further, it may be more appropriate to do it in private messages.

Simply put, I do not think you are the best person to write this story.

Iā€™m starting to get that sensation.

I'm actually okay with people writing outside their lanes (within limits...) but in this case I think you're not the best person for the story. There are several reasons for this:
-There has been such a long history of Native peoples being silenced that I think they're one of the communities that should be left to Own Voices stories.
-You're talking about taking specific things from different tribes and mixing them together and yeah, it does sound like it would end up lumping all these different tribes into a single homogenous thing.

Iā€™m ashamed to admit I didnā€™t really see this problem until I was most of the way through the editing process. Itā€™s an issue Iā€™m not 100% certain I know how to fix.

-The MC's background is...problematic.

I explained the attempted murder thing earlier, but I have a follow-up question: Is it problematic because of the attempted murder, or because her dadā€™s Indigenous? Iā€™ve seen loads of terrifying and traumatic childhood backstories in books, comics, movies etc. This isnā€™t a YA novel, is the issue here Iā€™m vilifying a First Nations person? My aim is for clarification, Iā€™m sorry, again, if this comes off as offensive.

-The use of magic and language is a definite minefield. I'm of Chinese descent and I have books coming out which tackle magic and Chinese words and it is tricky as shit to get right even when I *DO* speak the language. The thought of someone who doesn't speak the language trying to tackle this makes my head hurt, lol.

My intent is to get somebody who is familiar with Cree to help me out. I know Iā€™ll never learn it, Iā€™m hot garbage at language and itā€™s frustrating that so much of my magic system relies on it -.-

There are a ton of other issues here, but you get the gist!

Sure do.

After all this, Iā€™m pretty well convinced Iā€™m going to change the MCā€™s ethnicity and background to something I have more personal experience in. What I started out wanting to do with her doesnā€™t appear to be something I CAN do with her. Namely, to bring an under-represented culture into a genre I love in hopes others will be inspired to look into the culture more.

I still want to do what I set out to do, but it looks like a lot is going to change on the how.

Thank you, everyone, for helping me make a hard decision.
 

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You have such a great attitude about it all. I'm sure you'll be able to figure a good change that will work best for the story. Fwiw, I love the homonym thing with your magical system and I think you could have a lot of fun with the English language in this scenario. My MG fantasy has a similar thing with how the different tones in the Chinese language change the meaning of the words, so for example, my MC at one point accidentally turns a wall into flowers because he mispronounces the words for a spell. The English language is rich with possibility here. Best of luck with it!
 

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Iā€™m not pulling in other cultures as a spice, my intent is to draw attention to them.


(Bolding mine.)

Why?

I'm Chinese. Why does a straight white guy have to draw attention to my culture to bring it into the mainstream?

Same question regarding First Nations peoples: Why does a straight white guy have to draw attention to these peoples' cultures to bring it into the "mainstream"?

I find this offensive because it gives the impression that cultures not considered "mainstream" are only worthy of attention 'cos a white writer has featured them in their story. I want to say "white saviour syndrome" here.

#ownvoices is a very good search term.
 

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At the very least, I would say the book requires more research. So, so much more research, a huge amount of which should be conversations with multiple tribal people. Literal years of work. This before even thinking about a sensitivity reader, because you simply don't know enough about the culture yet to not be insensitive.

People have said you're probably not the person for this book, and I agree, unless the above happened and even then perhaps not.

I think the main thing is to try to figure out why you wanted this particular character. It's someone so different from you that I wonder what the motivation was to create that character. I'm not ascribing malice to your motivation, but rather wondering what about this character's differences from you made you want to undertake an entire book about her.

There's probably a way to do that with a character that you can write with sensitivity. Look into cultures and social situations that you are connected to, there's so much diversity in every culture that I bet you'll be able to find another character that you can write without making her a caricature.

I'm not a fan of #ownvoices at all, I think it has become a gatekeeping tool outside of it's original intent, especially in queer spaces. That being said, if you can't put #ownvoices on your twitter pitch then you need to ask yourself if you know enough about the people you're writing to be able to make them people. That goes doubly so for a main character who's thoughts you'll be writing.

Good luck with your story! The good news is that there is almost always a different decision you can make with a story, right down to the identity of the characters. Unless the character's identity IS the story, but that doesn't sound like it's the case here.
 

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(Bolding mine.)

Why?

I'm Chinese. Why does a straight white guy have to draw attention to my culture to bring it into the mainstream?

Same question regarding First Nations peoples: Why does a straight white guy have to draw attention to these peoples' cultures to bring it into the "mainstream"?

I find this offensive because it gives the impression that cultures not considered "mainstream" are only worthy of attention 'cos a white writer has featured them in their story. I want to say "white saviour syndrome" here.

#ownvoices is a very good search term. [/COLOR]

Snitchcat, I'm always struck by the clarity of your views, and wonder if you could help me understand a little better. I thought it was understood that "straight white guys" have always had too much power in English-language publishing. In other areas we are encouraged to "use our privilegeā€ to support people who don't have that power. I interpreted the OP's words as saying other cultures are intrinsically worthy of attention and he wanted to help get the word out. Are you saying that this wanting to help is offensive in itself?

I also have a hunger to learn about other cultures, and wonder if there is anything I could do to get more diverse stories into circulation. Is this a selfish attitude?

eta: I should make it clear that I do see insensitivities in the original post, just not any mean-spiritedness.
 
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mccardey

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Snitchcat, I'm always struck by the clarity of your views, and wonder if you could help me understand a little better. I thought it was understood that "straight white guys" have always had too much power in English-language publishing. In other areas we are encouraged to "use our privilegeā€ to support people who don't have that power. I interpreted the OP's words as saying other cultures are intrinsically worthy of attention and he wanted to help get the word out. Are you saying that this wanting to help is offensive in itself?

I also have a hunger to learn about other cultures, and wonder if there is anything I could do to get more diverse stories into circulation. Is this a selfish attitude?

eta: I should make it clear that I do see insensitivities in the original post, just not any mean-spiritedness.

I'm not Snitchcat, nor a PoC, but I went to a Writers Festival thing a couple of years ago (Hectic and Deadly - I was asked to cover it) which was built around refugee and Aboriginal writers; so, Unheard Voices.

I remember above all the cringing awfulness of a panel about silencing of non-white voices and experiences - and wishing the earth would rise up and swallow me when a middle-aged very White female attendee stood up at question time and asked how 'we' as white writers, could help to amplify the experiences of the deadly and hectic. (Deadly and Hectic being self-claimed words for Aboriginal and (usually M.E.) refugees.

There was a dreadful silence from the panel, eventually broken by one of the Hectic writers who said, stressing Every. Single. Word. -

"You Could Shut The Fuck Up."
 
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mccardey

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I also have a hunger to learn about other cultures, and wonder if there is anything I could do to get more diverse stories into circulation.
If you were that white woman at Hectic and Deadly you'd have come home with scars, but also with the distinct feeling that it isn't the job of white people to get diverse stories into circulation. Its the job of white people to stop stopping other voices being heard.

Our white translation is not required after all.

Who knew? ;)
 

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Rick Riordan has his "Rick Riordan Presents" imprint, where PoC who write stories that are very similar to Percy Jackson and Magnus Chase (i.e. urban fantasy and teens connected to mythology/large pantheons) are selected and published. His name is on the cover as a stamp of approval so fans of his other works have a reason to check out these new people. There are a lot more queer characters than in his other books and a greater understanding of the mythologies than he (as a cishet white guy) could do. If he wrote a story about Hindu gods it would get a lot of sales because of his popularity, but instead he's having an Indian writer do that story.

When we say things like "we should elevate own voices," it's more than just fellow writers. It's editors, agents, publishing houses, booksellers...it's like how Some White Guy at a company has to intentionally make the decision to seek out female engineers or black engineers or what have you, not just other White Guys from Stanford. People who have power because the system favors them should use that power to lift others up. They also need to be aware of how that system favors them so they can strive for true equity.
 

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I thought it was understood that "straight white guys" have always had too much power in English-language publishing. In other areas we are encouraged to "use our privilegeā€ to support people who don't have that power. I interpreted the OP's words as saying other cultures are intrinsically worthy of attention and he wanted to help get the word out. Are you saying that this wanting to help is offensive in itself?

I also have a hunger to learn about other cultures, and wonder if there is anything I could do to get more diverse stories into circulation. Is this a selfish attitude?

Wanting to help isn't offensive. Wanting to help in this particular way is...problematic.

It's not like books by First Nations authors don't exist. Buy them. (Which will show publishers that there's a demand.) Buy them for other people. Ask your library to get them, if they allow requests. Talk about them online. Talk about all the issues in the publishing, push for change, etc. Look at what you read. Is it mostly books by white authors, because that's what you hear most about? Uplift THEIR voices, not your own. Don't center yourself.

Rick Riordan Presents is a great example of what an author with a big platform can do. (but obviously we all don't have that kind of platform...)
 
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RC turtle

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Its the job of white people to stop stopping other voices being heard.
So, individually white people are stopping others from being heard? I don't feel like I have the power to do that, and actually feel guilty most of the time for not speaking up more about cultural bias. I guess I'm relating it to discussions of rape culture, where other men not chastising their fellows for "locker room talk", etc., are allowing it to be perpetuated. Can anyone help me understand how this is different?

Or is this just a more frustrated/ intense way of saying "Don't tell someone else's story", "Don't talk about a culture that isn't yours (positively or not)", ā€œDon't assume we can't handle this ourselves"? Feel free to add to this list, please.
 

RC turtle

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Thank you,ChaseJxyz and LJD, for posting while I was struggling to find the right words for my questions. :). Does everyone agree that these activities are acceptable? and not too condescending?
 

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White writers could help amplify Deadly/Hectic writers by buying their books.
See, this is the only thing I could think of, but especially with my budget it seems so small. (I did think of the library thing, but mine does not take requests.)
 

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See, this is the only thing I could think of, but especially with my budget it seems so small. (I did think of the library thing, but mine does not take requests.)

Here's a few freebies:

~On favorite authors threads, we can list favorite authors who are not top-of-the-heap.

~On social media, we can mention books by whosever voice we'd like to lift.

~On review sites, we can post reviews for books by underrepresented voices.

I'm assuming none of these are offensive activities.

And I believe authors can raise issues independently of cultural identity. If an author wants to do this, they have options. Certain genres like science fiction (at least IMO, using aliens for example) are suited to the goal. It can also be done through the use of animal protagonists, like in The Art of Racing in the Rain. (Animal Farm and other more recent titles.)

Basically, I think the idea is that there is a best way to tell a story ... and many other ways that do not land on target.
 
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mccardey

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It's not about writing, but white-washing in Australian musical theatre had an enlightening moment this week, over this issue:
On 20 August, the shortlist of Australiaā€™s most lucrative musical theatre scholarship program, the $65,000 Rob Guest Endowment, was announced. The all-white judging panel had handpicked 30 artists between the age of 18 and 25 who they believed to be the most promising in Australia. The announcement was shared with a grid of headshots. The headshots were all-white too.

The overlooked performers and the 30 shortlisted got together on the issue which was terrific.

Turtle, I think the most positive thing we can do is read other voices. Seek them out, and read their own words, allow their stories to change us and change our view of ourselves. Then talk about them.
 
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See, this is the only thing I could think of, but especially with my budget it seems so small. (I did think of the library thing, but mine does not take requests.)

There are a lot of public domain and free books and a surprising number of them are by underrepresented writers, writers of color, writes who are not male het cis, etc.

Because white European cultures are so dominant, many people do not realize, for instance, that Alexander Dumes (Three Muskateers, etc.) was black.

If your library doesn't do loans, see if an account at that library permits you to have an account at another library; this is very often the case.

If you can read ebooks or listen to audio books, consider those alternatives too.
 

jennontheisland

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I've been told in no uncertain terms that as a white woman I am not allowed to write stories about anyone but me. I've stopped writing for the most part because I'm not interested in doing that.

If you did get this published, you can expect a response from the general public similar to this thread, amplified proportionally to the volume of the whole internet.

I did find it interesting when my company (I work in construction) brought in someone to do whole day training on diversity and inclusion, they brought in a middle aged white guy. He immediately addressed it by noting that the audience of 95% middle aged white people (60% male) are more likely to respond to training and direction from someone who looks like them and has a similar background to them. The same does not apply to literature and publishing.
 
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