How to plot 50 to 60k word novel with three act structure?

BizMindedWriter · Sep 15, 2020

Thank you!!

I would like that thank each of you for your insight and wisdom.

I see that many of you have published a number of finished works and I am inspired by you.

I am truly honored to be affilated with this forum. It's been less than a week since I joined and I have already learned so much.

Thank you.

BMW. (Get it. BMW. Like the car. lol)

Z0Marley · Sep 16, 2020

Hi BizmindedWriter!

Woo-woo for a scifi writer in the house!

BizMindedWriter said:
... I don't know how to use the three act structure to span 50k words. (Outline)

How does one come up with a progressive chain of events (scenes)that lead to a reader satisfying climax?

You know, I'm going to do everything I can not to go off on a tangent.

Realize you don't have to perfectly plot things before you write. People say there's two types of writers, pansters vs. plotters, but I say it's rubbish. There's plenty of us in between, and from what I gather, you seem to write really well by simply writing. I do too; however, it's exhausting trying to plot it down, then changing it because I've discovered something when I write, etc. What I wish I would have done with my current WIP is to plot it one act at a time, for example, write 5-10k words to get my feet muddy, then plot Act 1. I pantsed the entirety of Act 1, and I seriously had to cut TWENTY-THREE THOUSAND words once I put structure to it. (I used the master beat sheet which is both Save the Cat! and Story Engineering. It can be found on Jami Gold's site here.)

I'm going to be exploring this this week on my YouTube channel (link in my sig). This week I'm doing Intro to Act 1, Save the Cat Beat Sheet (releasing today), Hero with 1,000 Faces; and next week I'm going to be focusing on Story Engineering, How to Effectively Mindstorm for Writing, and then a sit-down session with how I do it; spoilers and all. It's hard to put all the advice into one thread, so I hope pointing you is okay. Regardless, you can do it! Just find what works for you; there's so much good advice on this thread.

katfeete · Sep 16, 2020

BizMindedWriter said:
My target is 60K words(this is considered normal for scifi novels)

Bit of a derail, but do you have a source for this? I read extensively in the genre and I can't remember the last time I read a novel that short. Some of Heinlein’s stuff, maybe, or other classics, but certainly anything I’ve read that was published as a novel in the last decade or so has been 80K+.

(Wordcount isn’t something I sweat in the first draft anyway — the story will be the length it will be — but then, I’m not weighing in on the main topic because I’m reasonably sure plotting via Chaotic Index Card is not the method you need.

)

CathleenT · Sep 16, 2020

Sorry, BizMindedWriter--I tried answering this with the quote button, but the site wouldn't oblige. However, this is a response to the question you asked upthread.

What I do when I write a novel is to first have a very brief plot. For example: Snow White loses mother, runs away from stepmother, meets and loses my version of Prince Charming, then pulls herself together and makes a life without him. But she's struck down by her stepmother's mirror plague and loses consciousness. End of book one. (Book two is all from the POV of Prince Charming).

Then I expand that plot into a thousand-word synopsis. I often get help in Query Letter Hell for this, but not always. I line things up so it looks like my plot points will be in order--point of no return before I'm more than a quarter of the way through, pinch points, midpoint, dark night of the soul, etc.

Sometimes, I'll already have the opening scene. Sometimes I'll start this process because of that.

Then I usually discovery write (aka pantsing) scenes. Sorry--I know that's probably not much help. But I can't have everything planned out in advance. It sucks the life out of the story for me.

I have the character's arc clear and the turning points clear when I start. That's enough for me. But my longer works are all character driven. I really need to know who my character is at the start and who they have to become.

Thrillers, OTOH, tend to be light on character and heavy on plot, as does most sci-fi that I've read. One recommendation I have for you is to decide which subgenre you're going to write. Sci-fi thriller? Military sci-fi? Space opera? These all have very different audiences and expectations.

Then I'd go find the top sellers on Amazon in your subgenre and read at least one of their books. See for yourself what a successful finished result looks like.

Then start plotting. If you're doing space opera, for instance, the setting tends to be huge. Enterprise. Tatooine (sp?). In any case, it helps to make the setting matter. If you can clearly picture the characters and setting, that's a good place to be to start arranging the building blocks of your story.

Your mileage may REALLY vary.

Cephus · Sep 16, 2020

katfeete said:
Bit of a derail, but do you have a source for this? I read extensively in the genre and I can't remember the last time I read a novel that short. Some of Heinlein’s stuff, maybe, or other classics, but certainly anything I’ve read that was published as a novel in the last decade or so has been 80K+.

(Wordcount isn’t something I sweat in the first draft anyway — the story will be the length it will be — but then, I’m not weighing in on the main topic because I’m reasonably sure plotting via Chaotic Index Card is not the method you need. )

Agreed. I just finished up a book today at 112k and I haven't seen many shorter than 80k in a long time. Of course, there are exceptions and there are some people writing fast novels over on Amazon that clock in at 60-65k, but those are the exception, not the rule, and they tend to put out at least 10-12 books a year.

BizMindedWriter · Sep 16, 2020

katfeete said:
Bit of a derail, but do you have a source for this? I read extensively in the genre and I can't remember the last time I read a novel that short. Some of Heinlein’s stuff, maybe, or other classics, but certainly anything I’ve read that was published as a novel in the last decade or so has been 80K+.

(Wordcount isn’t something I sweat in the first draft anyway — the story will be the length it will be — but then, I’m not weighing in on the main topic because I’m reasonably sure plotting via Chaotic Index Card is not the method you need. )

I don't have a specific source. I have read many sources that say a novel can be between 50K to 100K+ words. This is general reading I have had over the years. I know that scifi/fanstasy can be hefty on the word count, but all that is mostly description and setting stuff not action and dialogue stuff.

Forgive me for that statement. I know my post says novel, but I am actually thinking more of a novella to get started.

Trust me, I have a couple of Star Trek novels around 60 to 65k words give or take. Hard SciFi is really up there; that I know.

BizMindedWriter · Sep 16, 2020

CathleenT said:
Sorry, BizMindedWriter--I tried answering this with the quote button, but the site wouldn't oblige. However, this is a response to the question you asked upthread.

What I do when I write a novel is to first have a very brief plot. For example: Snow White loses mother, runs away from stepmother, meets and loses my version of Prince Charming, then pulls herself together and makes a life without him. But she's struck down by her stepmother's mirror plague and loses consciousness. End of book one. (Book two is all from the POV of Prince Charming).

Then I expand that plot into a thousand-word synopsis. I often get help in Query Letter Hell for this, but not always. I line things up so it looks like my plot points will be in order--point of no return before I'm more than a quarter of the way through, pinch points, midpoint, dark night of the soul, etc.

Sometimes, I'll already have the opening scene. Sometimes I'll start this process because of that.

Then I usually discovery write (aka pantsing) scenes. Sorry--I know that's probably not much help. But I can't have everything planned out in advance. It sucks the life out of the story for me.

I have the character's arc clear and the turning points clear when I start. That's enough for me. But my longer works are all character driven. I really need to know who my character is at the start and who they have to become.

Thrillers, OTOH, tend to be light on character and heavy on plot, as does most sci-fi that I've read. One recommendation I have for you is to decide which subgenre you're going to write. Sci-fi thriller? Military sci-fi? Space opera? These all have very different audiences and expectations.

Then I'd go find the top sellers on Amazon in your subgenre and read at least one of their books. See for yourself what a successful finished result looks like.

Then start plotting. If you're doing space opera, for instance, the setting tends to be huge. Enterprise. Tatooine (sp?). In any case, it helps to make the setting matter. If you can clearly picture the characters and setting, that's a good place to be to start arranging the building blocks of your story.

Your mileage may REALLY vary.

Thank Cathleen. Your posts have been truly helpful in leading me in the right direction. I am grateful.

lizmonster · Sep 16, 2020

BizMindedWriter said:
I know that scifi/fanstasy can be hefty on the word count, but all that is mostly description and setting stuff not action and dialogue stuff.

This is something of a myth, I think. Most stories have description and setting. If SF has more (and I'm not convinced it does), it doesn't have enough to double the word count.

Cephus · Sep 17, 2020

BizMindedWriter said:
I don't have a specific source. I have read many sources that say a novel can be between 50K to 100K+ words. This is general reading I have had over the years. I know that scifi/fanstasy can be hefty on the word count, but all that is mostly description and setting stuff not action and dialogue stuff. Forgive me for that statement. I know my post says novel, but I am actually thinking more of a novella to get started.

Trust me, I have a couple of Star Trek novels around 60 to 65k words give or take. Hard SciFi is really up there; that I know.

Now go look at the bestsellers on Amazon and see how many words they have. A 60k novel is about 220 pages. An 80k novel is about 300. Because I already went and looked an 100% of modern books in the top 10 are all 300+ pages long.

jpoelma13 · Sep 17, 2020

The amount of worldbulding in a story and the amount of description are both going to vary by the novel, so is the length. I don't think you should sweeping generalizations like this, but if you'd like to write a novel of that size go ahead.

katfeete · Sep 17, 2020

BizMindedWriter said:
I don't have a specific source. I have read many sources that say a novel can be between 50K to 100K+ words. This is general reading I have had over the years. I know that scifi/fanstasy can be hefty on the word count, but all that is mostly description and setting stuff not action and dialogue stuff. Forgive me for that statement. I know my post says novel, but I am actually thinking more of a novella to get started.

An effective story can be any length. The only reason to worry about word count at this stage is if you are BizMinded (

) and thinking of being traditionally published. In that case, you should be aware that 50-60k falls in an awkward dead zone — too long for most novella markets, too short for novel buyers — and you may find yourself having to cut or backfill. If you’re self-publishing this will only be a minor issue of labeling and pricing so that your customers don’t feel cheated. Either way, it’s not a huge concern right now, because what you need right now is advice on telling an effective story... and an effective story can be any length.

Given that I want to revisit some of the earlier advice about reading and recommend you pick up some novellas. They’ll be faster reads, easier to fit in with your time restrictions, the structure is going to be closer to what you want to write than big ol’ 125K SF epics, and the novella renaissance has resulted in some really brilliant recent SF examples. Top of my recommended list would be Martha Wells’s Murderbot, starting with All Systems Red, and it’s got the kind of pacing it sounds like you want (EVERYONE should be reading Murderbot though ; it’s swept awards several years running for a bloody good reason.) Karl Schroeder’s The Million might also be up your good-pacing-to-learn-from alley. I also really enjoyed Aliette de Bodard’s The Tea Master and the Detective and Nnedi Okorafor’s Binti.

Woollybear · Sep 17, 2020

BizMindedWriter said:
My target is 60K words(this is considered normal for scifi novels).

One reason I've not popped in before now was because I found the 50-60K part in the title post strange, but fine.

But this quoted bit above, I don't think that's universally accepted, at all.

I had thought the sweet spot was 90-100K and worked like hell to get Aerovoyant to under 95K. It ended at 97K and I applied to RevPit and was told (by a respected editor) that 97K is TOO SHORT FOR SCIENCE FICTION.

(Sorry, was I yelling?)

But, if your question is how to target a length, I'd say look at adding more viewpoints (or fewer) or subplots (or fewer.)

You have a protagonist and an antagonist. You can give each their own GMC arc. You can promote a secondary character to viewpoint status.

Or, to tighten, you can remove viewpoints and arcs.

As a point of clarification: Are you concerned that your scenes will come in light on word count, or heavy?

BizMindedWriter · Sep 17, 2020

Folks. lol. Leave word count alone for a sec. 1) I'm not going through a traditional publisher 2) This a first published work ever, so the goal is to get published not write a bestseller 3)Forgive me for the "sweeping generalization" already

4) The topic is structure. Structure. Any advice/tools/readings/templates on structure would be most helpful. (Read a lot. Yes, I know. lol. Besides just that. lol)

Woollybear · Sep 18, 2020

(Any outrage you may have heard from me was not directed at you, in case that was not clear, heh.)

For structure, take a look at a book called Writing Deep Scenes. What's nice about it is not only that it tackles the 3-4 act structure in a new way, but also that the authors categorize different scene types, so that one can use scene types strategically. They identify fifteen types, from a 'lay of the land' scene to a 'twister' scene to 'dialog' and all the rest. They recommend certain scene types for certain parts of your larger story structure.

It's not my favorite craft book, but for structure it's one of my go-tos.

BizMindedWriter · Sep 18, 2020

Woollybear said:
(Any outrage you may have heard from me was not directed at you, in case that was not clear, heh.)

For structure, take a look at a book called Writing Deep Scenes. What's nice about it is not only that it tackles the 3-4 act structure in a new way, but also that the authors categorize different scene types, so that one can use scene types strategically. They identify fifteen types, from a 'lay of the land' scene to a 'twister' scene to 'dialog' and all the rest. They recommend certain scene types for certain parts of your larger story structure.

It's not my favorite craft book, but for structure it's one of my go-tos.

Thanks Woollybear. Writing Deep Scenes. Got it. That's what I'm talking about.

(BTW, that statement was not toward anyone in particular. Just wanted to keep the thread on topic and remind folks that I'm new at this so mistakes will be made from time to time. lol. Funny. I also do some elementary programming on the side and there is always someone on StackOverFlow with 10+ years experience coming down hard on the newbie because he forgot that a String is an Object in java unlike C or C++. LOL.

)

Gateway · Sep 20, 2020

BizMindedWriter said:
Hello all,

BizMindedWriter here.

I am an aspiring scifi writer. I have great scenes and great dialogue, but I don't know how to use the three act structure to span 50k words. (Outline)

I know some use beat sheet like in Save The Cat, but that doesn't seem to work for me.

I am also a huge fan of Dan Harmon's story circle(which I divide the 4 quadrants into 4 acts) but the same problem arises; I can't seem to get a number of quality scenes that progress the story toward a solid climax.

How does one come up with a progressive chain of events (scenes)that lead to a reader satisfying climax?

Any techniques or methods would be appreciated.

Think in terms of set-pieces for quality scenes. Think in terms of character change/transformation/arcs based on an underlying message (theme) to progress the story forward.

benbenberi · Sep 21, 2020

The classic, indispensable work on the subject is Jack Bickham, Scene and Structure. Read it, absorb it, internalize it so its principles become reflexes, and you'll be well on your way.

The key concept is scene AND sequel. Things happen in the scene. The sequel moves you forward to the next scene. You need them both.

thehansell · Sep 21, 2020

My breakthrough on this came from K.M Weiland, who you mentioned. Everyone is different and I personally think there is no single correct way to write a novel.

It's tedious sometimes, but one thing I've used from Weiland to fill gaps in my plot is to 1) write down all the scenes I have, 2) take each scene and come up with three or four key questions I have about each one, then finally 3) go through each question and answer them. It sounds stupid and basic, and it's not going to work for everyone, but it forces my brain to fill in the gaps bit by bit.

BizMindedWriter · Sep 23, 2020

benbenberi said:
The classic, indispensable work on the subject is Jack Bickham, Scene and Structure. Read it, absorb it, internalize it so its principles become reflexes, and you'll be well on your way.

The key concept is scene AND sequel. Things happen in the scene. The sequel moves you forward to the next scene. You need them both.

I have that book. Lol. I need to re-read it. Thanks for the suggestion.

BizMindedWriter · Sep 23, 2020

Thanks. Scene by scene.

averyames · Sep 24, 2020

You may also be the type of writer who does better writing the story first and applying structure later.

As Z0Marley mentioned, sometimes this does result in massive edits. But I've found this system still works better for me than filling out beat sheets ahead of time. When I outline too stringently, my characters end up feeling like cardboard cutouts walking through the plot to get to the next necessary scene or plot point, rather than driving the plot through in-character decisions.

I do, however, tend to define a few key plot points first, then allow myself time to wander a bit between them. Later I'll get nitty-gritty with looking at the structure for weak spots and maybe doing a little rearranging, but in the first draft I need room to explore various rabbit trails created by my characters. (And yep, sometimes that means chopping out scenes or subplots later, or adding in new ones.)

The key things I do suss out ahead of time are:

- Inciting incident ("Call to adventure")

- First Plot Point (When the protagonist can't go back, or the "Crossing the Threshold". Later on, I'll look at where this falls and try to place it around 20-25% of the way through, but I don't stress about that in the first draft)

- Midpoint Turn (This is the big shift about halfway through or so. New information comes to light that changes the protagonist's expectations and mission, or the villain suddenly changes the stakes, etc)

- Darkest Moment (The "everything seems lost" point, where you wonder how the protagonist is possibly going to pull this off)

- Climax (The big finale. The final battle or confrontation, everything comes to a head.)

- Resolution/Denouement (The cool-down, easing the reader out of the story, what happens after the action of the climax.)

If I'm stuck on one of the plot points, I think about the key conflict of the story. What is the central driving conflict of the book? This would usually be the "stakes" part of the query letter, if I were writing one.

There are other points and scenes that fall between those listed if you get into detailed structure and beat sheets, but I finesse those later. In the first draft, I just focus on hitting these elements. In draft 2, that's when I'll go through and assess the acts and massage it until it works.

Everyone has their own process and this one may not work for you, but just listing mine in case it helps.

How to plot 50 to 60k word novel with three act structure?

BizMindedWriter

Z0Marley

katfeete

CathleenT

I write

Cephus

BizMindedWriter

BizMindedWriter

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

Cephus

jpoelma13

katfeete

Woollybear

BizMindedWriter

Woollybear

BizMindedWriter

Gateway

You Are My Density

benbenberi

practical experience, FTW

thehansell

BizMindedWriter

BizMindedWriter

averyames