• Basic Writing questions is not a crit forum. All crits belong in Share Your Work

How to plot 50 to 60k word novel with three act structure?

BizMindedWriter

Registered
Joined
Sep 7, 2020
Messages
14
Reaction score
1
Hello all,

BizMindedWriter here.

I am an aspiring scifi writer. I have great scenes and great dialogue, but I don't know how to use the three act structure to span 50k words. (Outline)

I know some use beat sheet like in Save The Cat, but that doesn't seem to work for me.

I am also a huge fan of Dan Harmon's story circle(which I divide the 4 quadrants into 4 acts) but the same problem arises; I can't seem to get a number of quality scenes that progress the story toward a solid climax.

How does one come up with a progressive chain of events (scenes)that lead to a reader satisfying climax?

Any techniques or methods would be appreciated.
 

InkFinger

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 15, 2020
Messages
4,296
Reaction score
1,566
To what extent are you asking for guidance? Every scene has predecessors and outcomes, so you could use the one scene concept of designing the immediately preceding scenes and the immediately following scenes for all the scenes you know. Continue the process until the scenes you know are connected. Each of characters will have a NOCR (needs/wants, obstacles, climax, and resolutions) for each scene and for the overall story arch, with emphasis on your protagonist and antagonist. This topic comes up regularly, so what specific aspect are you looking for help with?
 

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
14,532
Reaction score
24,098
Location
Massachusetts
Website
elizabethbonesteel.com
TBH I think the best things you can do are

a) read a lot in your genre, so you can get an instinctive sense of story shape; and
b) practice. Just write a lot of stuff, read it, revise it, figure out how to make it "feel" right.

There are plenty of books on writing out there, but there's no substitute for actually steeping yourself in storytelling.
 

Helix

socially distancing
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
11,695
Reaction score
12,077
Location
Atherton Tablelands
Website
snailseyeview.medium.com
If you're still creating an outline or writing your first draft, maybe don't get hung up on the three-/four-/n-act structure. Just write your story and see where those things fit in once everything's in place. Then you can pick out those turning points and adjust the story to suit them.
 

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,211
Reaction score
15,811
Location
Australia.
If you're still creating an outline or writing your first draft, maybe don't get hung up on the three-/four-/n-act structure. Just write your story and see where those things fit in once everything's in place. Then you can pick out those turning points and adjust the story to suit them.

I agree with this, basically because if you're having to ask about the 3-act structure, it probably means it's not a natural structure for you. And there are not hard-and-fast rules about structure, really - so as Liz says, the best thing to do is read and read and sometimes read extra-closely if you find a structure that sings for you.

Generally, it's best to look at rules and formats for writing as suggestions - and if they immediately seem to fit, then they're helpful. If not, you're going to have to work much too hard to make your work fit them.
 

CathleenT

I write
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 6, 2014
Messages
5,097
Reaction score
1,981
Location
Northern California
I have targets, but I don't see how that differs much from beat sheets.

So, for a 60k book, you can't have more than 15k for the first act. Less is better.

That means I have to get in an opening hook, my protag's ordinary life (with however many things I decide that's wrong with it), a good inciting incident, and a point of no return. My scenes run from 2-5k, so I get somewhere between three and seven scenes in act 1. Then I map it out using plot points. So, if my opening hook is droids escaping in a space battle, then I also need to show Luke not being able to attend the space academy, the farm getting torched, and Luke joining Ben and Han to blast their way out of Mos Eisley.

Then I fill in between the above points.

This is what works for me, but I have no idea if that will work for you, OP. YMMV. But I offer it here in case it's useful. : )
 
Last edited:

Layla Nahar

Seashell Seller
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Messages
7,655
Reaction score
913
Location
Seashore
I suggest taking your favorite 50-60K stories and reverse outlining them. You can look for the turning points and see how many words it took to get there, see how many events and actions are covered by how many words.
 

ChaseJxyz

Writes 🏳️‍⚧️🌕🐺 and 🏳️‍⚧️🌕🐺 accessories
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2020
Messages
4,524
Reaction score
6,203
Location
The Rottenest City on the Pacific Coast
Website
www.chasej.xyz
There's no one right answer to this, because every writer is different, and every project they handle is different. How I would outline a novel would be vastly different to how I outline a short story. You've tried some stuff and you find it doesn't work for you, that's fine! You're trying things, which is good.

Have you looked at "the hero's journey"? It's a pretty standard archetype that you can use.

It's also possible that your story isn't suitable for a 50-60k novel. Not all stories require that many words, and that's okay, just like how some stories are better suited for a tv show than a movie. As you write your first draft, you're going to get to know your story better, and you'll get a good idea if you need to revise your plans.
 

BizMindedWriter

Registered
Joined
Sep 7, 2020
Messages
14
Reaction score
1
Ok, let's say you are writing a spy/thriller novel.

Your protagonist has James Bond/The Grey Man as his archetype. James Bond character types do not have a positive or negative character arc for the most part. They have a flat arc. They have not really changed internally, but the world has changed externally. (They save the world, there are explosions, and they get the girl.) Flat arc pushed Hero Journey out the window.

So what type of story structure would one use in this case?

- - - Updated - - -

To what extent are you asking for guidance? Every scene has predecessors and outcomes, so you could use the one scene concept of designing the immediately preceding scenes and the immediately following scenes for all the scenes you know. Continue the process until the scenes you know are connected. Each of characters will have a NOCR (needs/wants, obstacles, climax, and resolutions) for each scene and for the overall story arch, with emphasis on your protagonist and antagonist. This topic comes up regularly, so what specific aspect are you looking for help with?
Ok, let's say you are writing a spy/thriller novel.

Your protagonist has James Bond/The Grey Man as his archetype. James Bond character types do not have a positive or negative character arc for the most part. They have a flat arc. They have not really changed internally, but the world has changed externally. (They save the world, there are explosions, and they get the girl.) Flat arc pushed Hero Journey out the window.

So what type of story structure would one use in this case?
 

InkFinger

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 15, 2020
Messages
4,296
Reaction score
1,566
So what type of story structure would one use in this case?

James Bond is a character driven action/adventure. Bond's essential character drives almost every plot point. He won't back down from a challenge. He will risk it all almost every time. He is loyal to his friends, and a scoundrel to women, even the ones he loves. (Note: Even when there is a love interest in the film, he sleeps with at least one other woman.) Both he positive character traits and his flaws move every Bond story forward. You are right though, James Bond does not grow, per se.

As for plotting out a Bond story, that's pretty straight forward. The basic structure is set up a plausible, or semi-plausible disaster scenario and throw Bond into the middle of it. Give Bond a clear cut answer for how to resolve the problem, and then throw a bunch of problems between him and the clear cut answer. Complicate the answer with every solution to the problems in between until Bond is isolated from his friends and has no choice but to do something foolish/dangerous at grave personal risk. Kill the woman who we think is good for him and make the woman who worked against him damaged and vulnerable in some way so that she can redeem herself after getting naked and then kill her too. At the last moment, use a seemingly innocuous tool or revelation shared in Act I to resolve the situation by going end around the clear cut solution provided in Act I. Bond is left alone just as he started with a new adventure and at least one new sexual partner under his belt. Rinse/Repeat.

What are you wanting to do?
 

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,211
Reaction score
15,811
Location
Australia.
Just out of interest, are you two talking about the books or the movies?
 

talktidy

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 14, 2014
Messages
896
Reaction score
86
Location
Fabulous Sweyn's Eye
Structure is what continues to bug me. Over the years my prose has got better -- well, compared to what it once was -- but a decent plot structure? Oh gawd.

IMHO my more successful projects have come to fruition, when I have a decent ending figured out from the start. It doesn't mean that ending will survive writing the damn thing, but it certainly seems to focus the story and help me draw the narrative threads through to the conclusion. You might try that.

Bye the bye, but the project I am currently floundering in and editing around the margins, when I should be trying to push to complete my first draft, has a coda, or an afterthought, masquerading as a proper ending.

I also think you need to think about conflict and upping the stakes in your story, together with an understanding of what your characters want and how far they are prepared to go to get it.

Have a look on youtube for material under the heading of plotting a novel and you may find something that chimes with your approach.
 

InkFinger

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 15, 2020
Messages
4,296
Reaction score
1,566
Just out of interest, are you two talking about the books or the movies?

I've seen all of the movies, most several times. I've only read a handful of the books, including two of those written after Fleming died that were written by another author - they followed the formula. Bond is good fun.
 

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,211
Reaction score
15,811
Location
Australia.
I've seen all of the movies, most several times. I've only read a handful of the books
Yes, but which are you talking about?

There are both subtle and significant differences in the approach to structure for films and novels, and not everyone picks them up instinctively.
 

Helix

socially distancing
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
11,695
Reaction score
12,077
Location
Atherton Tablelands
Website
snailseyeview.medium.com
I've seen all of the movies, most several times. I've only read a handful of the books, including two of those written after Fleming died that were written by another author - they followed the formula. Bond is good fun.

Books and movies are different story-telling media. Maybe BizMindedWriter could try Layla Nahar's suggestion upthread and study the structure of the original Bond novels to see where the turning points are etc.
 
Last edited:

BizMindedWriter

Registered
Joined
Sep 7, 2020
Messages
14
Reaction score
1
Just out of interest, are you two talking about the books or the movies?

I aspire to write novels, but I was using an archetype here. Movies are just easier to see characters than reading a whole novel each time I want to analyze a character/plot type. I listen to books on Audible to and from work, because I don't have much time outside of work to really do a ton of reading.
 

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,211
Reaction score
15,811
Location
Australia.
I aspire to write novels, but I was using an archetype here. Movies are just easier to see characters than reading a whole novel each time I want to analyze a character/plot type. I listen to books on Audible to and from work, because I don't have much time outside of work to really do a ton of reading.
If you want to learn about structure in novels, it would be much better to study structure in novels - which also means reading a lot of novels.

If you find it easier to study film, I'd think about writing a screenplay rather than a novel.

I've worked in both forms, and the differences in structure and pacing are very real. A writer can do both forms equally well, but they need to have studied both forms - at the very least, closely watched and closely read a whole lot of both.

They're not interchangeable, and although the format ideas are similar they can't be transposed without knowing a lot about the what makes them different. (Well, they can be, but not successfully without a fair degree of really understanding both forms. You can't really transpose one onto the other without being fluent in both.)
 

InkFinger

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 15, 2020
Messages
4,296
Reaction score
1,566
Agreed on differences between Novels and Scripts. Focus on the one you care about because they are different, but I did assume you were asking about the novels since this is titled 50K-60K novel.

The more important point of the thread is read. Find some time to read so that you keep those muscles limber, it helps, a lot. I am not reading as much as I should now, but I still read quite a bit. Audible is good too, though I lose something in the listening. I do get more books in that way. I've only read 6 books this year, but I've listened to at least 18 books on Audible. And since I've been writing short stories of late, I've read a lot of shorts.

That said, where are you in this novel. Are you stating that you have 60K written and need to make it flow? Or that you are targeting 60K and want to know how to get it done?
 
Last edited:

CathleenT

I write
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 6, 2014
Messages
5,097
Reaction score
1,981
Location
Northern California
Reading is important, but it's not necessarily the shortest path to mastering story structure. I read a lot of novels, for decades. For some people, certainly, that could be enough. I had internalized many things about three-act structure before I actually studied it. But becoming a good student of story structure was highly beneficial to me.

OP, I wouldn't worry so much about applying the Hero's Journey to Bond--it's not a good fit. But you could still give a spy thriller three acts. I usually start with a three-act framework. I'll violate it if I have a good reason, but it's a good skeleton to use to flesh out a story.
 
Last edited:

Helix

socially distancing
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
11,695
Reaction score
12,077
Location
Atherton Tablelands
Website
snailseyeview.medium.com
I aspire to write novels, but I was using an archetype here. Movies are just easier to see characters than reading a whole novel each time I want to analyze a character/plot type. I listen to books on Audible to and from work, because I don't have much time outside of work to really do a ton of reading.

Characterisation in movies is completely different from that in books. When you watch a movie, what you're seeing is the actor's interpretation of the director's interpretation of the scriptwriter's interpretation of the character. In a book, it's more direct. When you read, it's just you and the author. That's why it's important to see how things are done in books if books are what you're writing.

The other good reason to read books is to make sure that you're not trudging over old ground. If a writer doesn't ready widely and especially if they don't keep up with current titles in their genre, they're in danger of producing trite and hackneyed work, because they're not familiar with what's already been done to death.
 

TrapperViper

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
564
Reaction score
151
Location
United States
I think all this advice is great. I think it's interesting you didn't find save the cat very useful.
From my perspective, how you go thru the process of structuring your novel is going to be very unique to you. It is not a cookie cutter approach.
For me, I have a mass spreadsheet that incorporates save the cat structure, story grid, KM Weiland's novel structure, and Carl Jung's hero journey. I have the scenes mapped out in accordance with each structure. When I finish the WIP and re-edit it all I assume I'll find areas that don't entirely reconcile with one or more of the above structures. But doing the spreadsheet has been a huge help to me and has helped me guide each scene with appropriate through lines. Again, this is me. Others would find it a total waste of time. Perhaps, as I grow as a writer, I'll find it not to be as helpful for future novels.

Now that I am familiar with a few of the popular ways to structure novels I see them more clearly as I read other novels.

If you are interested in the spreadsheet I did PM me and I can send it to you without my scenes so you can use it as a template...or adjust it to your own story.

IMHO, you are asking the right questions at the right time. I got so caught up on wordcraft in the beginning that it bogged me down and I didn't make much progress. Once I mapped out each scene the writing became a lot easier.
 

BizMindedWriter

Registered
Joined
Sep 7, 2020
Messages
14
Reaction score
1
Agreed on differences between Novels and Scripts. Focus on the one you care about because they are different, but I did assume you were asking about the novels since this is titled 50K-60K novel.

The more important point of the thread is read. Find some time to read so that you keep those muscles limber, it helps, a lot. I am not reading as much as I should now, but I still read quite a bit. Audible is good too, though I lose something in the listening. I do get more books in that way. I've only read 6 books this year, but I've listened to at least 18 books on Audible. And since I've been writing short stories of late, I've read a lot of shorts.

That said, where are you in this novel. Are you stating that you have 60K written and need to make it flow? Or that you are targeting 60K and want to know how to get it done?

My target is 60K words(this is considered normal for scifi novels) and all I have right now are a few character profiles, a premise, a loose outline, and a few scattered scenes. I have a strong premise but, as you have all said, I need to read more to really get the structure down. I have read so many books on structure from authors like K.M. Weiland, Chris Fox, and Libbie Hawker, but I'm struggling in this area. I can't have a solid plot without solid structure. I just have to read more as you have said.

I find what works best is to listen to the audiobook while I have the solid text in my hand following along. This way I get speed up the reading/listening time, lose concentration less frequently, and take notes on structure and plot points/twists as I go.

But no worries. I will get there. One of my dreams is to write good commercial fiction that sells. Once I put my mind to it, it's a done deal. It's just efficiency I am worried about.

Libbie Hawker churns out books like crazy because of the plot beat structure see created. I wish to do the same. To write stories that sell, satisfy the reader, and replace the earnings from my day job is my goal.
 

InkFinger

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 15, 2020
Messages
4,296
Reaction score
1,566
BizMindedWriter - I would start with wanting to tell a good story. Get that right, then worry about commercial fiction. As for speed, as with all things, practice. The more you write, the faster you will get at it, but you must learn to write well first. Take your ideas and start writing. It's okay if first run sucks balls, draft it, try again. Keep what works, and toss what doesn't. Repeat, often.
 
Last edited:

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,211
Reaction score
15,811
Location
Australia.
Libbie Hawker churns out books like crazy because of the plot beat structure see created. I wish to do the same. To write stories that sell, satisfy the reader, and replace the earnings from my day job is my goal.
Well yes, but she might also be a stonkingly good writer with an extremely supportive base from which to work. I don't know her books, so I don't know if that's true - but I think it could be dangerous to assume that if you copy her working method you'll succeed. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for all - if it did, it would be wonderfully easy to make a living out of writing. (Spoiler: it is not wonderfully easy to make a living out of writing.)
 

BizMindedWriter

Registered
Joined
Sep 7, 2020
Messages
14
Reaction score
1
Reading is important, but it's not necessarily the shortest path to mastering story structure. I read a lot of novels, for decades. For some people, certainly, that could be enough. I had internalized many things about three-act structure before I actually studied it. But becoming a good student of story structure was highly beneficial to me.

OP, I wouldn't worry so much about applying the Hero's Journey to Bond--it's not a good fit. But you could still give a spy thriller three acts. I usually start with a three-act framework. I'll violate it if I have a good reason, but it's a good skeleton to use to flesh out a story.

Thanks for the insight, Cathleen.

I checked out your website and seet that you have a number of published works.

If you don't mind me asking(it's ok to say "no"), what is your process for outlining a series of scenes that lead to a first draft?

I know, for example, that James Scott Bell teaches to start with the locale of a scene (if one, like me, is having a hard time with strucure) and link those locales together to get a framework by which to work.