Well this is something--court blocks Trump's attempt to change who is counted

Roxxsmom

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https://www.npr.org/2020/09/10/9087...-change-who-counts-for-allocating-house-seats

A special three-judge court in New York on Thursday blocked the Trump administration's efforts to make an unprecedented change to who is included in the census numbers that determine each state's share of seats in Congress.

The president, the court concluded, cannot leave unauthorized immigrants out of that specific count.

The ruling comes after the July release of a memorandum by President Trump that directs Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross, who oversees the U.S. Census Bureau, to provide Trump with information needed to exclude immigrants living in the United States without authorization from the apportionment count.

Since the first U.S. census in 1790, the country's official once-a-decade population numbers used to reapportion seats in the House of Representatives have included both U.S. citizens and noncitizens, regardless of immigration status. Enacted after the Civil War, the 14th Amendment ended the counting of an enslaved person as "three fifths" of a free person by requiring the counting of the "whole number of persons in each state."

I'm sure everyone knows the real reason the GOP wants to stop including undocumented people in the census counts.
 

ChaseJxyz

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The census has been a real fuster-cluck this year, and not all of it is 45s fault. It's kinda hard to enumerate a house if it's under an evac warning for a fire...or if it burned down. A lot of enumerators live (and work) locally, so they're running from fires, too, and can't work. The non-response follow up was supposed to start in April but it got pushed back to August because of covid.

The census has had a not-great record with getting Peurto Rico counted and certain populations in general. It really sucks when you try to do the questionnaire with someone and they say "but I'm not a citizen" and they breathe a sigh of relief when you say "It's okay, this info doesn't go to ICE or anyone else." All the talk about the citizenship question on the news months and months and months ago has gotten into the heads of people and they don't want to respond, because who knows. Some states hand over DMV records on who's undocumented to ICE, why would the census be any different? So even though there has never been a question about citizenship, the fear is still there and the damage has been done.

Source: this is the second job I've been vague about up until now
 

Roxxsmom

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The census has been a real fuster-cluck this year, and not all of it is 45s fault. It's kinda hard to enumerate a house if it's under an evac warning for a fire...or if it burned down. A lot of enumerators live (and work) locally, so they're running from fires, too, and can't work. The non-response follow up was supposed to start in April but it got pushed back to August because of covid.

The census has had a not-great record with getting Peurto Rico counted and certain populations in general. It really sucks when you try to do the questionnaire with someone and they say "but I'm not a citizen" and they breathe a sigh of relief when you say "It's okay, this info doesn't go to ICE or anyone else." All the talk about the citizenship question on the news months and months and months ago has gotten into the heads of people and they don't want to respond, because who knows. Some states hand over DMV records on who's undocumented to ICE, why would the census be any different? So even though there has never been a question about citizenship, the fear is still there and the damage has been done.

Source: this is the second job I've been vague about up until now

Yeah, and getting accurate census reports are challenging in the best of times. I knew someone who worked for the census waaaay back in the 1980s, and she remembers older people who lived alone and were convinced the government would take their homes if they learned one person lived in a four-bedroom house all by themselves.

I fear the census is more politicized now than it's ever been, though, and the early attempts to include citizenship questions in census forms pretty much guarantees that some undocumented people, and even some authorized immigrants, will be nervous about turning in forms, even though they don't ask about citizenship. That, along with the terrible catastrophes, and covid and everything else makes me worry that some states will not be getting their due this time around.
 

Diana Hignutt

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About six weeks ago a census taker came to our door. It was weird. He recorded that I lived with my same-sex, non-married, partner, and demanded to know about my "white origins." English, Scottish, Irish, and French, I guess. The whole thing felt very uncomfortable and a bit Nazi, tbh. I would have been even more freaked out if I were an immigrant, I'm sure.
 

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He recorded that I lived with my same-sex, non-married, partner, and demanded to know about my "white origins." English, Scottish, Irish, and French, I guess. The whole thing felt very uncomfortable and a bit Nazi, tbh. I would have been even more freaked out if I were an immigrant, I'm sure.

The same/opposite sex partner is really the only data point that can imply LGBTQ folx...which kinda sucks because it's very easy for people to say "Well why do we need to make these laws for trans/gay people? They're so rare!" But trans people are about as common as redheads (1%) of the population of the US. But I also understand why someone doesn't want to give that info out to a census person, especially right now.

As for the "white origins" I really hate that question. First it's "are you hispanic, latino or spanish origins?" which is the "ethnicity" question, then there is the "race" question (white, black, asian, native american, pacific islander, something else) in which latine/latinx is EXPLICITLY not one of those choices. And then you have to pick your [race] origins, such as English, German, Egyptian etc. It's very uncomfortable when you ask someone who's African American what their "origins" are when they don't know because, you know, slavery. Some people interpret the question as citizenship or the country you're from and some people don't really understand what "race" is. Or they just say "I'm American" and refuse to say anything.

But it used to be worse. Part of training was learning the history of the census. The first time they ever had Asian as a race, it was only "Chinese." If you were from any part of Asia, you had to be Chinese in the data. They also used to not count Native Americans who lived on reservations.
 

Roxxsmom

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I've never had a census taker come to my door--just gotten forms to mail in. This time there was a website, so no need to talk to anyone.

That's what I don't get about the whole census taker intimidating and asking personal questions at all. Why are some people not getting the forms? I guess folks who move a lot or don't have internet and computers? Which probably would be poorer people for the most part? And of course those are the people most likely to be intimidated by a brusque person asking probing questions about what kind of white person you are.

The what kind of white person is new this time, isn't it? I don't remember it from 2010.
 
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ChaseJxyz

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Everyone was supposed to get something in the mail back in April. Some people didn't complete it for whatever reason (like they forgot or they don't have access to the Internet). They may have been in the middle of a move and totally missed it, or it got lost in the mail, as things do. It's also possible that they live at an address that isn't in the Census database. Like If the landlord turned their bottom floor into an apartment so now there's 2 units at that address, or it's something that's newly built. I don't know where they get that info from; they've had me go to a building that was still under construction as of April 1 (Census day) so no one was living there, but they got that info from somewhere? It is a mystery.

There's also cases that people have submitted their questionnaire and someone comes knocking because they're double checking the data. Like if the Duggars moved to a new place and said that 20 people lived in their house, it would probably be flagged for being so outside the norm that they want someone to double check. Things like halfway houses and shelters are counted differently so they would want to make sure that there is actually 20 people living in a single-family housing unit. Or it was just randomly picked to be double-checked. ~The Algorithm~ decides all this, and none of us know why or how. Enumerators have had to go knock on the doors to their supervisors since they got randomly selected.

There's also people who have no idea what it is (like international students, which is totally fair) or think that they don't have to do it. And then there's people who hate the government or the deep state or whatever. Or think that this info is going to be handed over to ICE or something. If you look at the r/census subreddit you'll see enumerators talking about people who have booby-trapped their yards and brandish guns whenever anybody comes to their house. Or Karens who call the cops because you're standing on the sidewalk looking at your phone to see where to go next.

I can't speak as to the 2010 census as I was in college, so my parents did whatever for their house and my college did the group quarters thing for students. You might be able to find historical questionnaires with some googlin'.
 

MaeZe

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I was selected a few months back in some special nurse census. I ignored it and yep, guy showed up at the door.
 

Diana Hignutt

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We did fill out our census form, they guy came anyway.
 

Roxxsmom

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We did fill out our census form, they guy came anyway.

I figured you had, and others have stories like this too. It's annoying as hell. Why should they waste everyone's time, not to mention money and resources by doing it. It does make one wonder what the ulterior motive is, though it's possible there are just some clueless and "over zealous" census workers, since almost everything the current administration does is slipshod and sloppy.

I can't speak as to the 2010 census as I was in college, so my parents did whatever for their house and my college did the group quarters thing for students. You might be able to find historical questionnaires with some googlin'.

I've filled out a number of "short" forms over the year, and the different kinds of White people questions is new, I believe.

I don't think it's necessarily nefarious that they want to ask this, actually. The change was in the Works when Obama was still POTUS

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...nges-in-how-it-asks-about-race-and-ethnicity/

For so long, being "white" has been a sort of default state, and then there is "everyone else" with all the various sub categories. It doesn't make sense differentiating between Latinx people of different backgrounds and identities, for instance, and all the various intersections that exist between culture and race (like people of Afro-Caribbean descent) without considering that someone with recent ancestors from Ukraine may have different experiences and identity than someone whose ancestors came here generations ago from places like England, Scotland, and Germany.

As with everything, it's what you make of the data and how it's used. Given the current administration's White Nationalist leanings and stated desire to stop counting immigrants in the census, though, it's more worrying.

And as a side question, is anyone else having issues seeing the menu bars in the composition window here on AW. This is a brand new issue just today, and I can't link to text, or change fonts, italicize etc. or anything like that.
 
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ChaseJxyz

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The "problem" with the white question is that what it means isn't very obvious. You have to pick one or more race(s), and your choices are: white; black or african american; american indian or alaska native; asian; native hawaiian or other pacific islander; or some other race. If you pick white, it then asks you for your "white origin or origins." The examples they give are German, Irish, English, Italian, Lebanese, Egyptian etc. Black is African and Carribbean, Asian is the major countries of Eastern Asia, natives is what tribe/nation/etc, and some other race has no examples. So if you're middle eastern, you're "supposed" to pick white. If you're Mexican, you're "supposed" to pick native american and then put in whatever indigenous tribe(s) (or white if you can trace it to Spain).

But when you say "white," people usually don't think "Arab," and when you say "native American," people usually don't think Nicaraguan. It's very dumb that "hispanic" is not a race, nor is "middle eastern." I don't know why they chose this categories! And it's very awkward to tell someone "I'm sorry, you have to pick from this list," especially with how racial tensions are right now in America.
 

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Do they give you a space to specify your orgins? I don't recall the last Canadian census being all that specific, but, being white on both sides (AFAIK) I didn't really pay attention.
If there is room to specify, I'd suggest that everyone, in the interests of solidarity, be extremely specific:
Irish, Northern or Southern? Did they come over because of the Famine, or the Troubles, with the British army, or a better life in general, or this was where the boat stopped?
Etc.
You know, it occurred to me that the Census people would really hate people who declare their ancestry as 'Canadian' - because it tells them nothing.
 

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Speaking of the "white" question. I refused, told the man there was no such thing as human races and I wasn't going to answer it. I told him if he wanted to, he could fill it in for me, but I would not. He got frustrated but quit pushing me. Not sure if he filled it on or not.

I don't recall what I put on the regular census. I mailed it in rather than going online so I can't check. If there was a place for 'other' then I marked 'other'.
 
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In the census from the early 20th Century one set of my great grandparents are listed as Canada (Fr) for the where were you born question. They were both born in Quebec and came south as adults.

I have no idea what is on this year's census form. We got it in the mail, hubby went online and filled it out. After over 50 years together he knows everything there is to know. The one question neither of us would be able to answer is my blood type. He knows his, I've never known mine.

MM
 

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After you pick a race you can put in your origin(s). I put "Sweden" and my roommate put "Ashkenazi Jewish." You type in whatever and it'll let you put whatever you want into it. You have the ability to say "I don't know" or "I refuse to answer that" for any question or data point (they're different things for the data we put it). The only thing we NEED is the number of people living at an address as of April 1. Anything else is extra and would be REALLY nice to have; ages can help us predict how badly an area needs a new school or senior services, for example, but you only need population count for determining seats in Congress.
 

regdog

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Yeah, and getting accurate census reports are challenging in the best of times. I knew someone who worked for the census waaaay back in the 1980s, and she remembers older people who lived alone and were convinced the government would take their homes if they learned one person lived in a four-bedroom house all by themselves.

I fear the census is more politicized now than it's ever been, though, and the early attempts to include citizenship questions in census forms pretty much guarantees that some undocumented people, and even some authorized immigrants, will be nervous about turning in forms, even though they don't ask about citizenship. That, along with the terrible catastrophes, and covid and everything else makes me worry that some states will not be getting their due this time around.


That was actually a talking point in one of our gubernatorial races here in MA once. Kerry Healy said single seniors shouldn't be rattling around big multi bedroom homes in the suburbs while families with kids struggled to find houses with enough bedrooms in those same suburbs. She said the seniors should sell their houses to those families and move into city senior housing apartments. Ultimately she lost the election.

About six weeks ago a census taker came to our door. It was weird. He recorded that I lived with my same-sex, non-married, partner, and demanded to know about my "white origins." English, Scottish, Irish, and French, I guess. The whole thing felt very uncomfortable and a bit Nazi, tbh. I would have been even more freaked out if I were an immigrant, I'm sure.

I was miffed when i saw that on the form. My family is whole mixture and I listed them all. Writing them in all around the side of the form since there wasn't enough room for them all. I added "You Asked For Some Reason-Well Here You Go"
 

Roxxsmom

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That was actually a talking point in one of our gubernatorial races here in MA once. Kerry Healy said single seniors shouldn't be rattling around big multi bedroom homes in the suburbs while families with kids struggled to find houses with enough bedrooms in those same suburbs. She said the seniors should sell their houses to those families and move into city senior housing apartments. Ultimately she lost the election.

And that's a shocker. Americans don't like being told what to do with their stuff. Their bodies? Sure. Many Americans are fine with being told what to do with their bodies. But not their stuff.

This kind of thing is one of the points that comes up over and over with people who reject the Democrats: the fear of being told what they can eat, where they can live, what kind of car they can drive, how many and what kinds of guns they can have. Stuff questions.

The democrats that actually run on platforms of forced veganism or banning all cars over a certain size or limiting the housing people can have is, well, I don't think there are any. But they sometimes talk about the choices they think people "should" make more often and this gets interpreted as "they are coming for your hamburgers."

Conversely, telling women what they can do with their bodies, and telling people who they can marry, is a part of the GOP platform (or it was when they had one besides"Hail Trump"). But that kind of government overreach doesn't freak out Republicans, not even the libertarian-leaning ones.



I was miffed when i saw that on the form. My family is whole mixture and I listed them all. Writing them in all around the side of the form since there wasn't enough room for them all. I added "You Asked For Some Reason-Well Here You Go"

I don't think the origins question was originally meant in a bad way. America is a big stew, or salad bowl, or melting pot etc., and heritage is a lot more complex than simply saying you are White, Black, Asian, Latinx etc. I've got a colleague who is from Cameroon, for instance, and he isn't really sure he can classify himself as African American, even though he is a naturalized US citizen of African descent. His cultural experience here is very different from people who have been here generations and are descended from African slaves.

For much of the 20th century, we've thought of whiteness as this generic norm, while people of ancestries outside the US had this rich assortment of heritage and cultures. But in the 1800s and early 1900s, being Irish was seen very differently from being of English descent, or German descent (like one set of my own great grandparents), or being a Russian Jew, or being Greek, or Italian. Back then, being a Catholic or Jew rather than a Protestant was a big deal too. It still kind of was when Kennedy ran for President, in fact. And we haven't yet had a Jewish POTUS, nor any Catholic ones since Kennedy (though Hopefully Biden will change that).

But it's not something they will necessarily get accurate data on either, though maybe it's more possible now with ancestry dot com and other such services that allow people to look up records, trace those family rumors down, and even get DNA if they're comfortable with that. But many people think they have famous ancestors they can't verify, or ancestors who came from different places than they actually did. Far more Americans think they have Native American ancestors than actually do, for instance. And my mom always emphasized her own Mother's Scottish lineage (she's descended from the Virginia Gooches of Goochland fame, though the supposed "patriarch" of that clan actually returned to the UK without issue), but I traced their ancestry to England, not Scotland, and anyway, there were plenty of other things in Grandma besides the Gooch lineage).
 
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regdog

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I don't think the origins question was originally meant in a bad way. America is a big stew, or salad bowl, or melting pot etc., and heritage is a lot more complex than simply saying you are White, Black, Asian, Latinx etc. I've got a colleague who is from Cameroon, for instance, and he isn't really sure he can classify himself as African American, even though he is a naturalized US citizen of African descent. His cultural experience here is very different from people who have been here generations and are descended from African slaves.

For much of the 20th century, we've thought of whiteness as this generic norm, while people of ancestries outside the US had this rich assortment of heritage and cultures. But in the 1800s and early 1900s, being Irish was seen very differently from being of English descent, or German descent (like one set of my own great grandparents), or being a Russian Jew, or being Greek, or Italian. Back then, being a Catholic or Jew rather than a Protestant was a big deal too. It still kind of was when Kennedy ran for President, in fact. And we haven't yet had a Jewish POTUS, nor any Catholic ones since Kennedy (though Hopefully Biden will change that).

But it's not something they will necessarily get accurate data on either, though maybe it's more possible now with ancestry dot com and other such services that allow people to look up records, trace those family rumors down, and even get DNA if they're comfortable with that. But many people think they have famous ancestors they can't verify, or ancestors who came from different places than they actually did. Far more Americans think they have Native American ancestors than actually do, for instance. And my mom always emphasized her own Mother's Scottish lineage (she's descended from the Virginia Gooches of Goochland fame, though the supposed "patriarch" of that clan actually returned to the UK without issue), but I traced their ancestry to England, not Scotland, and anyway, there were plenty of other things in Grandma besides the Gooch lineage).

If we had any other Administration I could believe this. But given this Administrations racist, xenophobic, Islamaphobic rhetoric and policies, I see them wanting thin information to identify those they consider acceptable white and not acceptable white.
 

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One of my local news stations, NECN, had a piece on the Census last night. They were saying how the Census usually under counts, poor, immigrant, Native Americans, urban and minority populations. Ending the Census early could exacerbate that this time. They said should the Census end now, there would be 3 less Democratic Representatives lost from NY, RI and another I cannot remember. 3 would be gained in key Republican states TX, NC, FL.

In a seperate story, MA Sec of State William Galvin has said he believes MA is being under counted and will challenge in court if necessary.


My opinion-now we know why Trump is trying to end Census counting early. Use it for national political gain and keep those he doesn't like, immigrants, democrats, poor, Native Americans and minorities out of the count.