Directions Please - Point me to the thread that discusses becoming a working writer

I'm pretty sure there is no magical door. Write, revise, write some more.... like that.

InkFinger said:

I am sure it is here, but I do not know where. I have been a writer for sometime. I sold my first piece of fiction in 1992, but would never call myself more than a hobbyist, and I have not pursued regular publishing. That said, my son is starting his career as a writer and I am tagging along like a workout buddy. I can bumble and blunder without much harm. I'd like him to miss a few of those and get a solid start. Journalism and Advertising were the route when I was kid. What is it now?

If you point me in the right direction, I will go there to learn and maybe start an appropriate thread there.

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What exactly are you after? A 'how to' guide on writing or something else?

There are lots of threads in Roundtable and elsewhere that might be relevant -- you just have to sift through them.

What does "working writer" mean in this context?

What kind of work?

What kind of writing?

And honestly, there is no single "correct" pathway, there never has been one, and there's even less now.

As others have said, a lot of the "how-to" depends on what you want your career to look like.

For trade publishing novel-length fiction, nothing (AFAIK ) beats the traditional slog of writing a novel and querying agents. Publishing short stories in reputable markets may, in some cases, make an agent more inclined to give your book a read, but a dozen shorts won't help you if the book is bad. I suspect the degree to which it helps also varies by genre.

Short story publishing is its own battle, and in my genre (SFF) feels more difficult than selling a novel. I'm not sure it should be viewed as any kind of stepping stone; the art of the short story is very different than the art of the novel, and shouldn't, IMHO, be pursued if you're not the sort of writer who writes like that.

If the goal is to make a living wage, that's harder and chancier, and depends again on your skill set. Anecdotally, I've heard one way to earn a living wage by writing fiction is to self-publish 4-6 quality works in a year. Some genres are better for this than others, and it's still not a given: you have to market, and you have to stay on top of your publication schedule.

For trade publishing, I've heard from multiple authors that it takes at least ten years of consistently selling new work before any kind of steady income stream might appear. That's not a living wage, necessarily - just something predictable.

Others will have other stories that contradict mine.

The thing is, unless you're a staff writer somewhere, you're a freelancer. I sometimes think it'd be better for all new writers, no matter what avenues of publishing they hope to pursue, to view themselves as a start-up company and make a business plan - including how they plan to support themselves until the business can pay for itself. It's unromantic, but I'm the sort of person who feels better about the inevitable failures if I have concrete plans on how to keep moving.

If it's fiction your son is intending to write: The thing he most should be concerned with is not being published, but whether he can eke out a living while doing so. Having observed at close second-hand the travails of writing fiction "for a living", I'd suggest that your son get and keep a day-job. Or have a spouse with one. Or both. I don't know if fiction authors as a profession ever had "salad days", but I don't think these are those. It seems a brutal industry today?

And if he intends to write fiction with the support of a day-job, I'd caution against the day-job being closely associated with writing (editing, agenting, etc). I've read many, many anecdotes of people who did that, and found that writing fiction in their "down time" felt too much like working.

Getting stuff published in various places builds up your CV/bibliography/whatever you want to call it, and that can help, but I think the types of things matter. In your original post you said journalism and advertising were things that got people into the writing world in the past. I have a decade of writing journalistic pieces and blog posts for companies and I think that roughly 0% of it will help me get my epic fantasy novel published. A 1,000 word feature for a weekly news magazine is a totally different animal than a sub-3,000 SFF short story, or a 500 word blog post that is min-maxed for the SEO phrase "do cats eat watermelon." (Yes, they can). My ability to edit a blog that got 100k+ hits/month would not translate to editing an anthology that sells 100k copies. My current body of written works proves that I have basic writing skills. It doesn't say that I know how to create three-dimensional fictional characters or compelling plot or anything like that.

I have multiple friends whose entire jobs are content writing (blogs, news letters, web copy etc). They do not consider what they do makes them "writers." One of them might have an edge on me in being "publishable" because he has more Twitter followers than I do, and he would probably be able to get his coworkers to amplify his messaging, but that doesn't make up for the fact that he's not a fiction writer and doesn't practice the same things I do. He would need millions of followers to make up for the fact that he's not """""a writer"""" and usually when people like that "write" books, they just have a ghost writer do it.

So, to answer your question, it won't HURT to sell things to (legitimate) one-offs, publications, contests etc, but there's no guarantee it'll help. It should be closely aligned to what it is you want to do. But if you don't get into those, then that's fine. Not everyone can do both short stories AND novels super well, like how not everyone can cook AND bake at a competitive level. If you want to be on Top Chef, then you probably shouldn't make your whole journey to get there be frosting cupcakes and making bread pudding. If you want to be a published novelist, then entering flash-fiction contests or poetry anthologies isn't going to be very helpful.

InkFinger said:

Thank you for providing your thoughts. I really do want to learn what you know. To help you help me, please allow me to be more clear in my request.

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There's a lot here, and I think you're conflating a number of things. Also, as many have mentioned, publishing conventions will vary not just by type of writing (fiction/non-fiction, long/short), but by genre. For example, in SFF, you don't have to write short fiction to be able to sell a novel. Neither do you need an MFA or six weeks at a writing retreat. You just need to write and query a good piece of work.

InkFinger said:

This thread began because I was given advice in a separate thread to avoid smaller, less established publishers/publications in favor of creating good work and submitting to my target agent or publisher.

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Here's where I think you're conflating some things. Small publishers and publications are fine. Scams are not. It is sometimes hard to tease the two apart, especially if the market is not yet established. There are warning signs (like the royalty structure of the anthologies you posted) that don't necessarily mean something is a scam, but do suggest you're not likely even to get exposure out of it. Meanwhile you've given up first publication rights to the piece (a lot of places, even short story markets, won't touch reprints), and all your hard work has gained you pretty much nothing.

InkFinger said:

A History of Saleable Work – each story that is picked up by an editor or publication proves that someone thought you could write and had something to say. The bigger your catalogue, the more credit you are given when you approach someone with your work.

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This assertion of yours is where things get fuzzy.

Writing isn't an internship, where if you've clerked at the right lawfirms you get hired by Big Partnership and your career takes off. At least in the genres I'm familiar with, nobody's going to scrutinize your resume and reject your novel if you haven't "paid your dues."

As for what prior publications can do for you? As I said, some agents might be more inclined to read pages if you've got a decent resume. But a credit in (frex) an open-call anthology that maybe pays royalties if the press's original costs are ever covered isn't a whole lot more robust of a credit than whacking something up on your web site. And even a paid credit won't help you if the agent doesn't like the book.

There's also a wider implication to writing for "exposure": every time you write for free, you're contributing to the downward pressure on what all writers get paid. No, one writer is not responsible for the whole industry. But anyone who isn't compensating you properly is absolutely taking advantage of the fact that the world's full of writers who really will grab any deal they can, even if it hurts them.

InkFinger said:

It is this last point, a history of saleable work that I have been working on with my son.

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Here's my opinion on this: an awful lot of young writers take bad deals because the work they're producing isn't ready yet. And that can, indeed, hurt you. I'm not talking about the sort of growth we all go through as we write through different periods in our lives. I'm talking about writing that would not be considered by a reputable publisher/anthology/short story market. I'm talking about writing that would cause someone to close the "Look Inside" on a self-published book and spend their money elsewhere.

Shoot high in your markets, and in your sales/marketing when you self-pub. If you're not getting traction, don't send the piece to a "we'll-take-anything" anthology - set it aside and write something new.

InkFinger said:

I did not become a working writer. I went into business, sales and finance of all things, and became quite good at that. My advice to my son is that he will struggle in the beginning at anything he chooses, so choose the thing he loves so that when he is my age he is quite good at that.

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That's good advice, but you're conflating again. Unless you're a staff writer, writing isn't a "regular" job. It's freelance piecework, always. You're being paid, ultimately, by readers - and it's not a reader's job to finance you through learning the business. It's your responsibility to learn what you can before you reach out to take people's money for your art.

The path that I know is:
A. Earn credit through small publications and contests
B. Work open calls for submission
C. Find an agent
D. Find a publisher
E. Demonstrate your ability to repeat

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A and B are unnecessary here. You can skip straight to C. I'd even say most writers who write novel-length work should skip to C, or to a good critique group and some folks who can help them learn how to self publish strongly. (Doing both can also be a good choice; trade and self pub don't have to be mutually exclusive, as many on AW can tell you.)

InkFinger said:

Outside my writing life, I do hire and manage people. The ability to show relevant skills and a track record is huge, essential actually. Breaking in on any level makes a difference.

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This is not true of publishing.

InkFinger said:

Our basic tactic at the moment is to try get some experience selling and working with editors and build up a few credits. Once we have a little bit of a track record, we will query agents. In addition to the short work that we are doing - 6 submissions this summer between 5K and 15K, we are both working on a novel. I have a completed work at 75K that I am working a second draft on now, and he has about 45K of his first draft.

That's the plan, anyway.

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Do what pleases you, but there's no reason at all to establish a "track record" if what you really want to do is publish a novel.

With two exceptions (own voices and non fiction) "experience," a "track record" or "credits" don't mean a whole lot.

The book matters.

Write a killer book. Use beta readers. Contact agents—good ones, who have repped authors and books you can find in your local library and on the shelves of your local book store.

Don't "start small" or "work your way up."

Start at the top. Don't investigate the sub-par. You're better off self-publishing than being badly published.

Side note: A guy who has since passed, but was one of my CPs a few years ago, has a son who made bank with weekly installments of My Little Pony fanfic.

This kid (~30 YO) had something like a million followers... because My Little Pony was huge. He was able to live off of it, according to my CP, don't ask me how. It counts as being a working writer, though.

It might have been this site, not sure:

http://onemansponyramblings.blogspot.com

Another path up the mountain.

InkFinger said:

LizMonster,

I read the following:

1. Avoid scams - not always easy, but be smart
2. Protect your copyrights, especially first publication
3. Expect a commercial rate so that you don't create downward pressure on rates for everyone, and yourself
4. It's not as important to have credits as it is to have good work.

If I missed something, please correct me.

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I'm reluctant to sign on to a crisp list, because for most people writing isn't a crisp profession. It's a non-linear, unforgiving, labyrinthine undertaking. And don't get me started on luck. Depending on my mood, I'll tell you anywhere from 80-95% of a publishing career relies on luck (once you've hit a baseline skill level). The other 5-20% is perseverance.

Mostly my advice would be:

1) Always value your work.
2) Investigate every deal, and don't sign a contract you don't understand.

On a personal, developmental level, I'd probably say:

1) Always strive to get better, no matter how good you are.
2) Keep your eyes open for opportunities (i.e. be ready to capitalize on luck when it falls your way).
3) Remember that sometimes good work doesn't find a home, and that says nothing about the next thing you write.

I would keep in mind the following:

The most valuable right you are selling when you are published is often the first publication right.
If one publisher likes something, it's likely that another one will—hence start at the top, at the best paying, or for scholarly work that doesn't pay or cost you to publish, the most prestigious.
Debut novelists are published all the time; they have a good book. Write a good book. Then find an agent. Then write another one.

You don't have to "work up" to something. You sell to the best market.

If you sell to a not-great market, you've used up your first rights; you want to make sure the market is worth it.

Being badly published — either by a not great publisher or publication, or for pay that is not acceptable—is not wise. Try to avoid it.

Don't sell your rights cheaply. Retain copyright. Make sure all rights have time limitations.

See the publishing FAQs.

I'm just in here as a data point: Writing really isn't a linear-progression profession. A young writer needs a day job that pays, independence, to read like breathing, and to write and write and write and get feedback from the best editors/readers/employers she possibly can. Read recent. Study the craft. For a novelist, this might mean reading current reviews (LRB, NYRB, TLS for starters) as well as reading the books themselves. For a journeyman writer, it means studying the back-issues and current work of anywhere they hope to pitch to.

Writing isn't just about transmitting, it's also about receiving.

ETA: More importantly, I think - but people do disagree with this sometimes, and it makes for an interesting conversation - barring the day-job, a young writer really ought to be doing all that up there ^ by about the age of 8, just out of pure delight in the thing.

ETA2: Also - in terms of novels - a young writer with no track record is infinitely more attractive to an agent and publisher than a young author with a poor or even mediocre or fair track record.

I would not sign up to #3. The downward pressure is going to be there regardless given the free markets and strength of the currency most of us are working for. If you can get a commercial rate, take it. But if you have your own reasons for taking less, that's up to you. I've worked for 50c a word and for free, all as part of the sensible strategy I had at the time for the work in question and the market in question.

Woollybear said:

Side note: A guy who has since passed, but was one of my CPs a few years ago, has a son who made bank with weekly installments of My Little Pony fanfic.

This kid (~30 YO) had something like a million followers... because My Little Pony was huge. He was able to live off of it, according to my CP, don't ask me how. It counts as being a working writer, though.

It might have been this site, not sure:

http://onemansponyramblings.blogspot.com

Another path up the mountain.

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Funny enough, all my impressive-sounding credentials w/r/t blogging/editing was because of My Little Pony. It lead to some 2-minute conversations in job interviews but people focused and cared about other things. You CAN definitely make money in fandoms as a writer...but it's few and far between. Way less common than people who make visual art, where you can charge hundreds if not thousands of dollars per work. Fandom writing isn't appreciated (and paid for) the same way as pictures or videos, and you can't monetize it like you can videos on YouTube.

But pony is pretty much dead since the show finished, all the cons were closing up shop pre-covid, and many of the artists (as well as fans) turned into furries, since that's where the money (and content) is (and always will be, since it's an evergreen fandom). The person you linked was probably only able to do so for a few years; I hope he managed to pivot to something else, or at least was able to get a day job somewhere. Getting deep into fandom is A path to publishing (I mean just look at Addison Cain) but you need to self-promote really hard and know exactly what fandoms are hot and what people want to see. But it will take a very, very long time of working for peanuts to get to that point. Or you have to be lucky and jump into a fandom that explodes, like HP and Twilight did.

InkFinger said:

Thank you for providing your thoughts. I really do want to learn what you know. To help you help me, please allow me to be more clear in my request.

This thread began because I was given advice in a separate thread to avoid smaller, less established publishers/publications in favor of creating good work and submitting to my target agent or publisher. The specific concern, I think, was that I don’t waste time or get scammed – both legitimate concerns. My question there is, “What is the potential harm in being published small time?”

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If you're talking about the thread now in Bewares, the issue was that it had originally been posted in Paying Markets when there was no guaranteed payment to the writer. If someone wants to take a chance on it, that's up to them, but they need to be aware that they might not benefit from it financially.

InkFinger said:

Here are my going in assumptions.

Working Writer Definition: Someone who earns their living, or a significant portion of their living, writing.​

Three fundamentals for selling work:

1. Writing Craft – simply put, the ability to write well, to construct sentences, and craft stories.
2. Something to Say – you have to have a story to tell, whether fiction or non-fiction, there needs to be a compelling reason read what you’ve written.
3. A History of Saleable Work – each story that is picked up by an editor or publication proves that someone thought you could write and had something to say. The bigger your catalogue, the more credit you are given when you approach someone with your work.

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Even award-winning writers don't always earn a living from their writing. Richard Flanagan, whose 'Narrow Road to the Deep North' was short-listed for the Miles Franklin, and won the Man Booker and the Prime Minister's Literary Award, had been contemplating working in the mines before that book took off. (He's doing all right now. And, God love him, he gave away his prize money from the PM's Lit Award to support Indigenous literacy programs.)

But I digress.

1. You need to be able to write. Yes. Tick.
2. Something to say. Well, the only compelling reason to read something is that it's a good story. You don't have to come out of it a better person or wiser in the way of the world or whatever. You just have to want to read it because it's good.
3. History of saleable work. Nah, not really. Publishers love a debut author. All that 'fresh new talent' publicity they can use to sell a book -- the PR department would roll around in it, if they could. (But not in a creepy way. More in a clean, newly ironed sheets way.) And by the same token, just being able to sell a book to an acquiring editor is not a measure of success on its own. You need to turn out books that publishing houses can sell to readers.

InkFinger said:

It is this last point, a history of saleable work that I have been working on with my son.

He’s a pretty good writer, young with plenty to learn, but shows great promise. You become a master at what you do, maybe. I did not become a working writer. I went into business, sales and finance of all things, and became quite good at that. My advice to my son is that he will struggle in the beginning at anything he chooses, so choose the thing he loves so that when he is my age he is quite good at that.

To that end, writing craft is a matter of repetition and hard work – write, revise, edit, and then try again, do better. Having something to say is a mix of honesty and experience – don’t be afraid to tell a story about what interests you in the most open way you can, and live a little to broaden your understanding of the world. Earning a history of saleable work is just a matter of working on the first two and getting your work out there. Each credit demonstrates that someone thought enough of your work to buy it. It also suggests that you were able to work with an editor to clean and revise your work. And they show the ability to do it more than once.

The path that I know is:
A. Earn credit through small publications and contests
B. Work open calls for submission
C. Find an agent
D. Find a publisher
E. Demonstrate your ability to repeat

Which brings me back to the beginning, if my goal is to earn credit with small publications and contests so that I am able to demonstrate an ability to write, tell stories, and sell, what is the downside to selling work to one off publications?

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I think you're confusing credit and a CV. Whether there are no previous sales on your CV or dozens, the most important thing to a publisher is the standard of the work you're submitting. If you've got three dozen books published and the one you're submitting now is a stinker, you might get some leeway. But if sales tank and you've lost the goodwill...

A lot of time when you're reading unsolicited work (slush) you don't read the cover letter etc. until AFTER you've read enough of the ms. to know if you want to read the rest of it.

In academe, for some publications, the cover letter etc. are scanned and associated in the database with the ms. and they just sit there until the first reader says yay or nay. because of a blind submissions policy.

The journey is different for everyone and for most people, the overwhelming majority of people, they never reach it. You have to be realistic in your expectations. Writing is hard. Writing for a living is incredibly hard. You probably have a better chance of playing sports professionally and that might be an easier option to boot.